Why is Theramore seen as unjustified?

[Saltysquidoon]

They pivoted to 'wait and see' later. Newer Dev statements trump old ones.

I would say they walked it back because the of monumental amount of anal pain it caused the 'muh dahk laydee' crowd (which is hilarious considering the end of the war campaign). I mean most of blizzard's hamfisted retcons don't get multiple news articles.

That said the idea that slyvanas was behind the wrathgate didn't just spontaneously appear after the first dev quote. People have been theorising she did it essentially since it happened.

[TheRevenantHero]

It's not a glitch, it's just how mobs work in game

"After imprisoning Aethas within the Violet Citadel, Jaina and her water elementals took to patrolling the city streets, teleporting some Sunreaver citizens to the Violet Hold and attacking others - both with those that attempted to fight her and some civilians attempting to flee." It's actually canon that she started personally attacking civilians.

[Super Dickmann]

I would say they walked it back because the of monumental amount of anal pain it caused the 'muh dahk laydee' crowd (which is hilarious considering the end of the war campaign). I mean most of blizzard's hamfisted retcons don't get multiple news articles.

That said the idea that slyvanas was behind the wrathgate didn't just spontaneously appear after the first dev quote. People have been theorising she did it essentially since it happened.

Yes, and they were wrong then too. The Cataclysm intro is entirely unambiguous on pinning it on Varimathras and Putress. It served no out of story aim since they came out with it after she'd already committed genocide, and no in-story aim since everyone involved in the Wrathgate was by that point absent from the Horde or dead and she and the Forsaken were already treated as culpable in the sense of getting the Undercity under martial law and their entire Cataclysm story about having to prove their worth to the Horde.

[Altdorf]

That lame excuse was garrisons , and that famous tombstone: Ray D. tier. Yeah, the Lost raid was shattrah, but wasn't the only thing, they skimmed garrison content because they were on a hurry and much more. The orc fatigue was behind the change in hellfire citadel where we were supposed to have a corrupted grom as main villain

[TheRevenantHero]

Except that Jaina is the leader of the Kirin Tor. She did give the Sunreavers an out - Prison. She only attacked those who attacked back.

One can presume that means she plans to punish them all, but we never heard what happened to the Sunreavers sent to the Kirin Tor's prison - And they've been set free as of Legion, since they're all back. Which means they likely were not intended to be punished, but questioned about the events which transpired.

So not only not collective punishment, but only attacking aggressive lawbreakers? Neither war crimes.

https://wow.gamepedia.com/Purge_of_Dalaran Read this. It details the whole thing. There were numerous blood elves that were trying to flee that got attacked by Jaina and Vereesa. There is even information in article stating unarmed civilians were attacked. So...yes. It was a war crime. You either didn't read that article, didn't do the quest when it was active, or you're purposely glossing over what happened.

[Volardelis]

Garrosh wanted to conquer Kalimdor and destroy the Alliance that much is certain. But in the battle for UC Varian was acting more like Garrosh. I think those two characters are very much foils to each other, one went down a path of destruction and the other pulled himself back from the brink but in Wrath/Cata they were pretty similar it was in MoP that the difference was felt.

Also both were tempted into using the sha as a weapon. Garrosh went all in on that while Varian didn't, mainly due to Anduin talking him out of it. Considering that Anduin did fight one of the sha primes beforehand (the sha of despair).

[TheRevenantHero]

No, that's what wowpedia says, wowpedia uses canon sources and fills in the blanks where it has to, using in game events etc - that's no necessarily canon

I can't believe I have to explain to you wowpedia isn't canon

So in other words, you say it's not canon because it disproves your biased narrative. I wasn't aware you worked for Blizzard and can therefore declare what is and isn't canon. But if it isn't canon, then prove it. Link me something that proves what you're saying about it not being canon.

[mickybrighteyes]

Except that Jaina is the leader of the Kirin Tor. She did give the Sunreavers an out - Prison. As leader, her word is in fact law when it comes to WoW politics, so she only attacked lawbreakers. She only attacked those who attacked back.

Those sunreavers she instantly attacked when she teleported in didn't attack.
also the displaced sunreavers are only hostile when they are attacked... unlike Jaina and the Elementals she summoned...

Granted I'm totally sure Jaina was flagged hostile so that she could auto target the red flagged mooks for her teleport spell trigger so she was only totally supposed to be removing them from the area and sending them to the violet hold prison cells /sarcasm (if this were at all true they'd have given her a spell and made the cooldown low enough to have it available or NOT had her packing raid boss frostbolts as a standard action)

One can presume that means she plans to punish them all, but we never heard what happened to the Sunreavers sent to the Kirin Tor's prison

This is one of the many plot holes around alliance actions deemed less than good.

And they've been set free as of Legion, since they're all back. Which means they likely were not intended to be punished, but questioned about the events which transpired.

Actually it's never stated that they were freed. The sunreavers that fled (not all were caught/killed in the purge) wound up going back to Dalaran AFTER Jaina was no longer present.


edit:

I'm also not entirely sure you realize the kind of leader you're posturing Jaina as... we literally JUST had another expansion browbeating us about this type of leadershi...

[TheRevenantHero]

I did do the quest when it was active.

Fleeing civilians are equally lawbreaking to attacking civilians. Even then, what you see depends on your faction.

https://www.reddit.com/r/warcraftlor...ge_of_dalaran/



So you'd first have to explain why only ONE side sees her lashing out at whomever first, THEN you can decide what's canon. As others have already told you, wowpedia isn't canon.

....There is absolutely nothing unlawful about civilians running for their lives from a powerful mage who they just watched murder in the streets. Attacking civilians is a war crime. A civilian running from someone who doesn't have the proper authority to be doing what they're doing (Something Varian scolds her about later) is not illegal.

As for the example you gave, it's literally the mindset of Alliance fans. No matter how heinous the act, it will always be justified or the person committing the act is said to be "acting alone". Jaina attacked innocent people just because they were blood elves. There is no justifying that. Which means she committed TWO war crimes; attacking innocent civilians and collective punishment.

Also, that's a reddit post with absolutely no citations. Which means it's 100% an opinion piece and therefore holds no water. Wowpedia actually has citations to where they get their lore. Reddit does not. Anyone saying wowpedia shouldn't be cited is quite frankly an idiot or just ignoring it because it proves them wrong. There are literally citations at the bottom of every article.

[Polybius]

Unless you can link me something backing up your claim that it was a PvP glitch, then that's just your own headcanon to fit your narrative. Everything else that has been said about the Purge clearly says she patrolled Dalaran with her elementals and either teleported blood elves to prison or flat out murdered them. So once again....she was committing a war crime. Collective punishment and attacking civilians are both war crimes.

Yeah and so is Sylvanas' plague in Gilneas but no exclusively-Horde player brings that up. If you play the Purge of Dalaran scenario you get different perspectives on Horde and Alliance. Jaina had no choice as leader of the Kirin Tor but to imprison the Sunreavers after they turned the other way and protected their own - flat out denying there was a traitor in their ranks while WMDs were taken.

on topic: Theramore is seen as unjustified because neutral factions and even Horde were slaughtered. Garrosh was a bloodthirsty fool who sought expansion by conquering territory that wasn't his. Hell he intercepted an Alliance ship that was only transporting resources and contemplated killing. It's reminiscent of the 'good old days' mentality irl but not going to delve into that. New generations don't know what war is like, the atrocities it brings.

[mickybrighteyes]

One, you're using a strawman of someone else's argument. I didn't say anything about PvP flagging.

No you said she only attacked those who attacked her... to which I would argue that is provably not true. Her stance is hostile to horde and in particular sunreavers in the immediate area which she attacks on sight. I only stated flagging because it could be a reason for triggers to be made a certain way. But I guess this is you trying to make your own strawman to dismiss my post?

Two, who she attacked in game depends what faction you play, so we'd first need an explanation in the differences between biased viewpoints.

She was attacking Displaced Sunreavers in both versions. And the player if horde. I've played both versions during MoP, WoD, and Legion so I've yet to notice any changes but hey. BFA is a new expansion and they might have stealth edited things

And note I DID go back and redo the grind on a total of 5 extra chracters to see what was in the live game at the time because this argument has come up in the past.

Right. Which means she didn't kill them... And that they were, eventually, freed from captivity by one means or another...

Actually no. We can point out that the Violet Hold events end in a plot hole. Nothing states they were freed or escaped or whatever. We have that some wound up in Garrosh Hold and eventually went back to Dalaran but the Violet hold bit? Nothing can be determined.

So they were in fact set free, at some point, and while they don't seem to AGREE with Jaina's actions, they certainly don't view her as a genocidal maniac in most cases.

Again, assumptions on being "set free" aren't based in any verifiable source. Also Jaina's reputation is weird. Try and blow up more than one city as alliance and still get treated like a good girl... Be horde and insult people and get condemned for life

Does she have control of the Kirin Tor at the time of MoP or not?

Yes, but fact is arguing that leadership has the power to condemn a wide swath of society as evil and put them to the torch for disobeying is kind of what we've now had 2 civil wars over condemning...

Like literally we have had almost a decade on this talking point and using it as justification for why horde leadership is bad....

[mickybrighteyes]

2) You still haven't proven she "punished" anyone who wasn't breaking the law. Those who complied were either let go or freed offscreen at some point, since they're back in Legion.

You haven't proven the former and keep asserting the latter.

you assume because Sunreavers still exist that they were freed but there is no citation backing that.

Aethas and some sunreavers did make it out of Dalaran and returned for the events of Legion. But you can go ahead with your head canon that they were freed from Dalaran if you like.

[TheRevenantHero]

Varian doesn't scold her about not having the authority. He scolds her because he was securing relationships with the Blood Elves, which Jaina undoubtedly soiled with her actions. In fact, he TRIES to scold her about it, and she shuts him down.

(Commented on wowhead with the quote: https://www.wowhead.com/quest=32423/...-done#comments )




But:
1) It's a direct contradiction of your own events as you say they occurred. Which did? Did she attack them in the streets, or did she only attack those who were hostile to her? These are two very different versions of events, and neither tells us which is real. If you can't prove her attacking the Sindorei in the streets is any more Horde bias than the 'alliance bias' in them being teleported, then you're only talking headcanon just as much as I am.

2) You still haven't proven she "punished" anyone who wasn't breaking the law. Those who complied were either let go or freed offscreen at some point, since they're back in Legion.



It's a reddit post literally describing what happens in game, which is clearly supported by the wowpedia article you yourself linked. It's not meant to be read as anything other than a statement of fact that can also be read within your shitty wowpedia article. What they feel about the purge is irrelevant to the information within the post.

But here's the quote from wowpedia since that seems to be your bible:

https://wow.gamepedia.com/Purge_of_Dalaran

The only time "kill" or "eliminate" is mentioned is against hostile/lawbreaking targets (uprising, magister breaking the law, refusing to side with Silver Convenant) when the dragonhawks are concerned, together with "subdue" and was meant moreso to prevent them from leaving the city. Which is common practice for lawbreakers, deny them the ability to travel.

No. They were not set free if they complied. The only free blood elves were the ones that managed to sneak out of the city. Jaina either killed or imprisoned any blood elf she got her hands on. The ones that came back in Legion are the ones that had escaped the Purge. They're not people that had complied with Jaina.

She didn't shut down Varian. She was being an ignorant bitch and just stuck her fingers in her ears when Varian chided her.

AND ONCE AGAIN. COLLECTIVE PUNISHMENT IS ILLEGAL. She was attacking or imprisoning even the fucking shopkeepers that had no fucking affiliation with the Sunreavers. For fuck's sake, they fed one of the civilians to the sharks in the sewers during the questline. You are shifting goalposts and trying so damned hard to justify the heinous actions of Vereesa and Jaina.

[TheRevenantHero]

Yeah and so is Sylvanas' plague in Gilneas but no exclusively-Horde player brings that up. If you play the Purge of Dalaran scenario you get different perspectives on Horde and Alliance. Jaina had no choice as leader of the Kirin Tor but to imprison the Sunreavers after they turned the other way and protected their own - flat out denying there was a traitor in their ranks while WMDs were taken.

on topic: Theramore is seen as unjustified because neutral factions and even Horde were slaughtered. Garrosh was a bloodthirsty fool who sought expansion by conquering territory that wasn't his. Hell he intercepted an Alliance ship that was only transporting resources and contemplated killing. It's reminiscent of the 'good old days' mentality irl but not going to delve into that. New generations don't know what war is like, the atrocities it brings.

What Sylvanas did in Gilneas was pretty terrible. I'm fully willing to agree to that. The difference is, while I'm willing to agree that some of the things the Horde has done was evil, Alliance fans are utterly incapable of admitting the Alliance did something evil. Jaina did have a choice. It's well known who the leader of the sunreavers is. Imprison and interrogate HIM. Instead she just started attacking every blood elf she saw, whether they were a Sunreaver or not.

[TheRevenantHero]

I am both not attempting to prove the former, nor assert the latter. Which is true doesn't matter, ONE is definitely true though because they ARE free later.

That's literally the only thing I'm saying. They can't be free if they weren't set or let free at SOME point.

As it has been said numerous times, there is no proof of that. The only proof we have is that the Sunreavers that return in Legion are the ones that had escaped the Purge. As was said, the Sunreavers that were imprisoned were never said to have been freed.

- - - Updated - - -

Got a source for that?



And what authority does Varian have to tell her not to? She's not part of the Alliance until AFTER this conversation. She was strictly neutral until then.



Not shifting goalposts, just showing you why it can be justified with the right reasons. See above. She did not collectively punish, she punished lawbreakers.

HE WAS THE FUCKING KING! Are you being serious right now? If he gave an order and she disobeyed, she would be committing TREASONS.

Are you incapable of reading everything I say? The civilians and shopkeepers that were fleeing from a maniac that was just imprisoning or attacking ALL BLOOD ELVES were not breaking the law. The fact that you think them fleeing is against the law is absolutely mind boggling. Or you're just simply saying that to poorly justify her disgusting acts.

[mickybrighteyes]

I am both not attempting to prove the former, nor assert the latter. Which is true doesn't matter, ONE is definitely true though because they ARE free later.

That's literally the only thing I'm saying. They can't be free if they weren't set or let free at SOME point.

You're missing something. Aethas and SOME Sunreavers were busted out... you're now saying that because some Sunreavers are free in Dalaran therefore all of them are, which is an issue that is stuck in a number of plotholes because Aethas and his followers aren't all the sunreavers that were present and those that weren't with them in the aftermath vanish from the spotlight and there is no further development.....


but as others have also pointed out this assumption that therefore they're all fine and dandy is one of the issues with how the story is told. You can keep arguing that "they have to be free!" but fact is the lore has nothing to cite backing that claim up.

[Saltysquidoon]

HE WAS THE FUCKING KING! Are you being serious right now? If he gave an order and she disobeyed, she would be committing TREASONS.

The king of Kul'tiras? The king of Theramore? The King of Dalaran? Or the king of none of those places.

[mickybrighteyes]

This is equally not backed up in lore. Got a source for it?

well One Last Grasp has Aethas and whatever sunreavers the player is able to wisk away getting out of Dalaran....

Ah I see I mistook the violet citadel for the violet hold. Anyways, the end result is the horde player is still managing to get some sunreavers out and dragging Aethas back to horde territory away from Dalaran.


edit: to be clear. One last Grasp is the follow on, the prior quest has yuo teleporting Sunreaver VIP out and then looking for Aethas in this quest.

also another thing to note. Jaina didn't "rule" dalaran as a queen. She was head of a council. a council that was not brought in to be informed of events... So any argument acting as though Jaina had authority to do as she pleased is actually not true. The council of Six was still the holder of power despite Jaina's position on it.

[TheRevenantHero]

The Violet Hold was raided by the Legion. We do in fact know they are free from there, intentional or not, because it was broken open yet again and the prisoners set free.



Treason, right.

Remind me, what is he king of again? Oh right, the Alliance.

What organization was Dalaran a part of during the purge? Oh, right, none. Neutral. His kingship gives him no authority here. "Treason against the organization you aren't a part of" isn't a thing.



I'm reading what you say, you're not reading what I say.

The civilians and shopkeepers were fleeing from the acting authority of the city that was demanding compliance or suffer consequences.

Jaina was not neutral. Yes, she was part of the Kirin Tor but she still answered to the High King. You have no idea what you're talking about.

The Legion raided the Violet Hold but that's all we know. Saying they were set free is 100% your own headcanon and therefore nothing but conjecture.

JAINA WAS NOT THE ACTING AUTHORITY. THE COUNCIL DID NOT GIVE HER PERMISSION TO CONDUCT THE PURGE. She had absolutely no fucking authority but she did it anyway. So once again....war crime. And just because she claims to be an authority does not suddenly make collective punishment NOT a war crime.

- - - Updated - - -

The king of Kul'tiras? The king of Theramore? The King of Dalaran? Or the king of none of those places.

The High King of the Alliance. I'm sick of people saying Jaina is neutral when she does something bad but suddenly a hero of the Alliance when she does something good.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

then you are looking in the miror if you see that... and know shit about lore, Jaina tried to level orgrimmar after theramore, she was stoped by Kalec and Thrall, so not by herself or alliance...
sure, it wasnt "sanctified" action, yet it was attempted war crime and genocide by someone who was and still is prominent alliance leader... not punishing her is pretty much the same as saying you agree with her action...

you can't punish some one for something you don't know about. only thrall and kelec knew about what happened with the focusing iris.