Why is Theramore seen as unjustified?

[Thage]

It's been a while since I've even thought about Theramore but it could be that it's considered unjustified not because it wasn't a legitimate military target (it was), but because of the means by which it was destroyed. A mana bomb is instant, leaves zero survivors (despite what you think, civilians are important, and killing them IS a war crime) and is honestly pretty cowardly for the "muh honor" Horde under Garrosh.

Now if they attacked Theramore with a force of soldiers or by sea, won through skill/numbers/attrition/whatever, and allowed civilians to evacuate (like they pretended happened with Teldrassil) then I don't think it would have been considered unjustified.

Basically this. It wasn't the 'what.' It was the 'how' that everyone took umbrage with, in-lore and out. Theramore was a legitimate military target, being a major port and maintaining a standing army, and it was actively assisting Alliance efforts in Kalimdor by providing a relatively fast inroad right into the Barrens.

However, Garrosh used a weapon of mass destruction--something both factions and most benevolent neutral factions have shown problems with, and the use of mana bombs was one of the clear indicators in The Burning Crusade that the blood elves loyal to Kael'thas had lost the plot. Remember that even Garrosh himself displayed distaste for WMDs prior to the assault on Theramore, first by explicitly forbidding Sylvanas from using the Blight (although Cromush was ineffectual at best in enforcing this decree) and later in Stonetalon when Krom'gar dropped a similar high-yield explosive on a school that trained druids at a time when the Cenarion Circle still largely operated as a neutral faction with only the outliers like the Adventurer picking sides.

So not only did Garrosh use a weapon that most rational characters expressed distaste for in the first place, he used one when he himself had executed a commanding officer for doing so and placing a subordinate leader under what amounted to a babysitter to make sure she didn't use any herself after shocking him with other unethical pursuits. That's why Theramore was seen as unjustified, and it's highly debatable if he intentionally let the civilians escape or if it was a side-effect of his real plan (being to assemble many of the Alliance's best and brightest in Theramore and nuke them off the face of Azeroth, a plan that largely went off without a hitch save for Rhonin saving Jaina at the last minute and Vereesa and Shandris being outside the blast radius).

The use of the mana-bomb turned Theramore from a conventional 'this is war, sometimes cities are sacked in war' tragedy into a war crime, just like burning Teldrassil escalated the War of Thorns from an unfortunate but legitimate outcome into a war crime. Even Garrosh seemed to acknowledge this in War Crimes, indeed, he seemed proud of it and told Anduin he'd do it all over again given half a chance.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

Except he's not talking about what is or isn't canon. He simply rambled something stupid game mechanics without actually explaining anything from a lore prespective.

To be fair Jaina was teleporting Sunreavers into the Violet Hold. She (and Alliance players) only fight the ones who are fighting back.

Is a statement of what happens Ie canon.

There are some Easter eggs in that quest - Jaina teleports Horde players to the Violet Hold if she runs across them. When they try to escape, they have to fight what's-his-name in the courtyard outside, where he attacks them with all the holograms of the bosses from the Lich King weekly raid quests.

is talking about a Easter age where you can see what's happening to the sunreavers. Neither statements is about about game mechanics and no matter how much you want to stick to your head cannon he over rides you.

[TheRevenantHero]

I'm only spouting as much headcanon as you. It's never mentioned what happens to the imprisoned sunreavers. We know the Violet Hold is broken into, yet again, by Legion times, and we know several Blood Elves involved in the purge escaped. (Some during the questing, but unclear how many or exactly who.)

So you don't have evidence to believe they're still imprisoned, and I don't have evidence to believe they're not - But one makes more sense given where the story has gone. When the Sunreavers were officially readmitted to the Kirin Tor, it no longer makes sense that they would imprison Sunreavers who didn't necessarily do anything wrong.



Well for one, she wasn't supporting the Alliance at the time of the Purge because she couldn't use Theramore to support them given the state of Theramore at the time of the Purge. And she wasn't using Dalaran as an Alliance base - It was a neutral base, clearly, given the potential for Horde members to use it for their own gain.

For two, Goblins have always much-more heavily supported the Horde, and yet until Cataclysm remained neutral. (Even after if we're talking the Steamwheedle, but we see some of them helping the Horde in BfA so who knows)

For three, Jaina's own neutrality was ABSOLUTELY neutral even as she allowed Theramore to be used as a base. She was even neutral enough to be talked down from flooding Orgrimmar after Garrosh blew up Theramore. A city for a city would have been pretty reasonable - But she let's Garrosh get away with it.

For four, she was an Alliance member at the time. She led Theramore as neutrally as she could, but as much as she liked it, Theramore wasn't HER city, it was an ALLIANCE city which she watched over. They could use it as a base without her approval, because they built the base. It wasn't her base that they used - It was their base that she oversaw.

Except she absolutely was supporting the Alliance at the time of the Purge because the Purge happened after the bombing of Theramore. While theramore was still in existence, it housed numerous Alliance vessels and supplied troops that were marching across Kalimdor. Dalaran being neutral has absolutely nothing to do with her own standing.

How the hell is allowing a fleet of warships to be docked in your while also supplying their troops neutral? You're really reaching calling Theramore neutral.

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Is a statement of what happens Ie canon.



is talking about a Easter age where you can see what's happening to the sunreavers. Neither statements is about about game mechanics and no matter how much you want to stick to your head cannon he over rides you.

If it was canon that she was only teleporting people, then she wouldn't have also used Frostbolt to kill people. Which means either Kosak is lying to make the Alliance look better or he's an idiot that doesn't really keep himself informed on the lore of the game he works on. Either options are viable for that joke of a human being.

[TheRevenantHero]

Explain how a bombed city is being used to support the Alliance?

By the time the Purge happened, Theramore was gone. There is no port to be docked at. She can't be supporting the Alliance with Theramore at the time of the Purge, because Theramore is gone by then.

And I didn't call Theramore neutral. I called Jaina neutral. Theramore was an Alliance city which Jaina presided over. She had neutral goals. She however, cannot deny the Alliance the ability to dock in their own port. It's really that simple. She is neutral, the city is not.

She was supporting the Alliance before the Purge. Which means she was part of the Alliance when the Purge happens. Which means what she did is not only a war crime but also would be attributed to the Alliance as a whole. Jaina is absolutely not neutral. Theramore was a neutral city up until Jaina let the Alliance park their troops there and used Theramore supplies to empower the troops marching across Kalimdor. Calling he neutral is an incredible stretch.

[Clone]

Blizzard had pretty much confirmed that the barrens conflict was started by North watch and co so I dont really see how it is a war crime

Jaina was pouring in legions of soldiers, steamtanks and ballista, burns down Taurajo and attacks the great gate, then garrosh has had enough, nukes it and suddenly it’s a war crime. «Innocents died». Innocents don’t matter in wow. There is a world quest where you run over like a thousand goblins with a dark iron golem and its seen as funny and hilarious

And Im not asking for a pissing contest about how much worse the horde has done, I am asking why its seen as a warcrime and not a legitimate military target *cough*

Because double standard.

[TheRevenantHero]

You're bad at this whole politics thing. That's not how that works at all.

That's exactly how it works. Alliance fans just say otherwise because they refuse to acknowledge that the Alliance can be evil.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

If it was canon that she was only teleporting people, then she wouldn't have also used Frostbolt to kill people. Which means either Kosak is lying to make the Alliance look better or he's an idiot that doesn't really keep himself informed on the lore of the game he works on. Either options are viable for that joke of a human being.

You don't get how this works do you? what you see in game isn't always canon this isn't/wasn't a new thing. he doesn't have to lie to make the alliance look better he's one of the people who make the story he literally gets to say what does and does not happen.

you can bitch and moan till the cows come home but your still wrong as he literally gets to pick whats right and he proves you wrong.

[TheRevenantHero]

You don't get how this works do you? what you see in game isn't always canon this isn't/wasn't a new thing. he doesn't have to lie to make the alliance look better he's one of the people who make the story he literally gets to say what does and does not happen.

you can bitch and moan till the cows come home but your still wrong as he literally gets to pick whats right and he proves you wrong.

Except he didn't actually make a comment about lore. He made a comment about game mechanics being weird. He's not the only person writing shit and no other writer has supported what he said. So yeah. I really don't pay attention to anything that hack says.

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Got it, you're just really, really dumb. Understood.

Besides, I don't even like the Alliance, I just get why people do.

Ah and there it is. The ad hominem. Rather than admit you're wrong, you turn to insults.

[mickybrighteyes]

A Dev posting under a Dev tag absolutely counts, maybe if it was solely a personal account it wouldn't but when you have that your the Dev plated officially it's and are answer lore questions it's official.

The thing is... that post only states that she was teleporting. It doesn't showcase that it was an exclusive act. Teleport wasn't her sole ability available in the scenario. Though looking up her abilities and seeing fireball is also weird. My point here is that the post does not do a good job establishing that she isn't killing targets in the event because it doesn't establish that she was only capable of only casting teleport. As to the assertion that she only attacks things that attack her? I don't know what build Dave thuoght he was talking about but she was aggressive flagged in the event and using blizzard as an offensve spell.

and a of course there's Bias but in this case it's likely character bias and not faction bias as they likely didn't want jiana to be known for that kind of thing.

A pointless effort given how the story still plays out regardless of how she treats the displaced sunreaver NPC.... cause they already had her killing in the cutscene and ordering the SC to act.

[TheRevenantHero]

Considering to get me to admit I'm wrong, you'd have to prove me wrong (which you haven't, you just plugged your ears and said "no I'm right"), and that I'm simply waiting for your evidence that people are literally incapable of change...

I think I'll just stick with insults, because I know that will get more from you than anything else. Especially since you're most certainly not going to be able to find evidence that people are incapable of change. You've backed yourself into an un-defendable position and pretending you have a leg to stand on.

Nah. I'm just not going to bother anymore. I've proven you wrong more than once. You just would rather believe your own headcanons. And now that I'm calling you out for the flaws in your argument, you're resorting to ad hominem. So that's a win for me.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

Except he didn't actually make a comment about lore. He made a comment about game mechanics being weird. He's not the only person writing shit and no other writer has supported what he said. So yeah. I really don't pay attention to anything that hack says.

To be fair Jaina was teleporting Sunreavers into the Violet Hold. She (and Alliance players) only fight the ones who are fighting back.

has nothing to do with game mechanics. he's flatly stating whats happening during the purge and it flatly proves you wrong.

[Soon-TM]

HE WAS THE FUCKING KING! Are you being serious right now? If he gave an order and she disobeyed, she would be committing TREASON.

I love how some Ally fans say that Jaina had nothing to do with the Alliance, except when it fits their narrative

[Saltysquidoon]

Which means she was part of the Alliance when the Purge happens. Which means what she did is not only a war crime but also would be attributed to the Alliance as a whole. Jaina is absolutely not neutral. Theramore was a neutral city up until Jaina let the Alliance park their troops there and used Theramore supplies to empower the troops marching across Kalimdor. Calling he neutral is an incredible stretch.

The dark iron dwarves were technically neutral until BFA. It's absolutely possible for Jaina to have been neutral until after the pogrom, In point of fact I always took the purge to be Jaina announcing she was joining the alliance given the following conversation with Varian.

There were plenty of 'neutral' nations who were just covertly or even openly helping the allies in WWII. It's just a reality of politics that a group or person can be formally neutral but practically in favour of one party.

[Kathranis]

It's seen as a war crime because Garrosh nuked the city, without any care or concern for the civilian population nonetheless.

It's been many years since I read the book, but I could swear that Garrosh stationed his army outside of the city for weeks without attacking while they evacuated civilians and brought in reinforcements, and did not attack or prevent any ships from fleeing.

Not saying he cared, but at least at the time, I'm pretty sure it was presented that the only civilians were those who chose to stay, like Jaina's gnome friend. What was messed up, if anything, was that the Alliance forces expected a fight, but instead got vaporized by a new superweapon. Now, I know the depiction of Garrosh was thoroughly inconsistent, so I can't recall what has or hasn't been retconned in terms of the attack, but at least when it was published, it's what I'd consider a valid target.

And it's hard for me to classify a mana bomb as the sort of weapon that would be banned -- not that there are any laws about conventional weapons in Azeroth, or that such conventions would make sense in a world where wars are fought using fire magic, shadow magic, etc., anyway. Jaina froze and burned countless enemies to death, so it's kind of hypocritical considering how comparatively humane a mana bomb is.

[TheRevenantHero]

has nothing to do with game mechanics. he's flatly stating whats happening during the purge and it flatly proves you wrong.

Except he really fucking isn't. He's talking about game mechanics and doesn't even explain all of it.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

The thing is... that post only states that she was teleporting. It doesn't showcase that it was an exclusive act. Teleport wasn't her sole ability available in the scenario. Though looking up her abilities and seeing fireball is also weird. My point here is that the post does not do a good job establishing that she isn't killing targets in the event because it doesn't establish that she was only capable of only casting teleport. As to the assertion that she only attacks things that attack her? I don't know what build Dave thuoght he was talking about but she was aggressive flagged in the event and using blizzard as an offensve spell.


A pointless effort given how the story still plays out regardless of how she treats the displaced sunreaver NPC.... cause they already had her killing in the cutscene and ordering the SC to act.

No it doesn't say teleporting is all she did but that's not the important part its the part where he says she only fights blood elf's fighting back. this comptly over rights the idea that she's killing fleeing blood elf's just trying to get away. it pretty much just means she was indeeding killing blood elf's but not the blood elf's just trying to get out but the blood elf's trying to resist arrest. as to builds/gameplay stuff like her flag that's not really relevant to the lore and is only there for game reasons so you can't say go take a selfi with her while she's on walking about.

as to how shes portrayed killing people trying to resist isn't really the same as killing people trying to get away so it makes sense that they'ed want one and not the other.

[TheRevenantHero]

I love how some Ally fans say that Jaina had nothing to do with the Alliance, except when it fits their narrative

Pretty much Alliance fans in a nutshell.

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Feel free. You've more than been proven incorrect throughout this thread.

I guess if you want to be known as the guy who truly believes people are incapable of change, who am I to judge?

Except, more people agree with me than they do with you. You're just acting like a child at this point.

Infracted.

[Sharby]

Was gonna respond but within like 2 posts this thread went to shit.

That's not including the already goofy original post.

Its because conversations about the Alliance are never constructive because they're just Horde players dogpiling on the same points.



Soon the essay-writers will arrive and it will end up like every other thread concerning the Alliance and their wrongdoings lol. I mean the fact that people still say that Alliance players think the Alliance have never done anything evil is very lol.


You can still be the good faction whilst committing some wrongs, which the current Alliance is. No Alliance player has ever disputed this. I'm sure.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

Except he really fucking isn't. He's talking about game mechanics and doesn't even explain all of it.

again nothing he said has any thing to do with game mechanics, no mention of mobs flags tags ect ect. you repeating that it's about game mechanics doesn't make it so.

[TheRevenantHero]

again nothing he said has any thing to do with game mechanics, no mention of mobs flags tags ect ect. you repeating that it's about game mechanics doesn't make it so.

Did we read the same thing? Because he talked about Jaina teleporting NPCs and that there's an Easter Egg where she will allegedly teleport players too(which I have never ever seen happen).