Ele shaman core problem

[Eleuss]

Scaling.
I get the idea that a hybrid class isnt equal in damage with pure damage dealing classes.
But hear me out.
Me and i think alot of people reading this just like the feeling and the style of the spec. I chose to main it (a damage dealing spec) and i as a ele shaman should scale just as well as a firemage.
Why do you make an dd spec that most people that play it will feel handicapped because they know this fire mage will improve his proccs and playstyle dramatically troughout the patches and with incoming gear meanwhile we just sit there on 15% base proc that i cannot improve with stats feeling less and less valueble in later patches. There isnt even a motivation for me to keep playing this specc because i know my playstyle will not change. And this is the core problem of ele shamans in my opinion.
How do you guys feel / think about this ?

[Mordog]

Scaling.
I get the idea that a hybrid class isnt equal in damage with pure damage dealing classes.

These times are over...
Hybid Tax musst gone completle or they introduce reall Support specs...

But for nor there are no Supüporters so no Hybrid TAX.

[Saltysquidoon]

The hybrid tax has been gone for a long time.

Also yeah ele didn't scale well into to absurd post-prog final patch stupidity period this time. But it's not like ele's been bad all of BFA, If I recall ele was very strong during BoD.

[Ezyah]

Ele was strong up to corruptions/essence abuse so we're talking about level of scalling that should never be seen again.

Right in EP, ELE was TOP1 on ST fights such as the 1st boss

+ having a passive giving you 250% crit dmg SHOULD allow you to have a good scaling in normal conditions.

[LordVargK]

To ask that everyone is on the same level as the (arguably) best DPS class in the game is madness. But I think it is fair to ask for relative balance. I would be happy if each class had one spec, which does it's roll pretty good. That means, that Rogues, Warlocks, Mages and Hunters all have a spec, that can compete for top DPS of a raid or M+. Note that "can compete" does not mean "is the best DPS spec".
Hybrid classes on the other hand have less chances of having a top DPS spec, because they numerically have less DPS specs overall. But they always have the option to focus on their other roles as compensation, while as a pure DPS class you can't.

Now, in BfA you are strongly incentivized to stick to one spec, which lessens the hybrid advantage. Questing as a healer can also be absolutely horrible, so you have the choice between not using your azerite traits while questing, equip worse gear to quest, don't do quests or don't play a healer. That's BfA's fault.

And that shamans are once again a meme is no secret as well. Reworks were promised, but Blizzard didn't deliver. But Ele is not the only spec without scaling. There will never be a time, where all classes are viable all expansion long. It's only bad if one class has no viable spec at all (which is absolutely not the case here).

[deenman]

Scaling.
I get the idea that a hybrid class isnt equal in damage with pure damage dealing classes.
But hear me out.
Me and i think alot of people reading this just like the feeling and the style of the spec. I chose to main it (a damage dealing spec) and i as a ele shaman should scale just as well as a firemage.
Why do you make an dd spec that most people that play it will feel handicapped because they know this fire mage will improve his proccs and playstyle dramatically troughout the patches and with incoming gear meanwhile we just sit there on 15% base proc that i cannot improve with stats feeling less and less valueble in later patches. There isnt even a motivation for me to keep playing this specc because i know my playstyle will not change. And this is the core problem of ele shamans in my opinion.
How do you guys feel / think about this ?

there is no such thing as an actual hybrid class anymore,this isnt vanila/tbc where a shaman brings windfury totem,mass dispel totem etc etc,no..an ele shaman is a dps just as a mage is and should do fairly equal dps,a shaman doesnt compensate to the raid anything extra that the dps loss would be acceptable,MAYBE speed totems,but resto can do that also

[deenman]

The hybrid tax has been gone for a long time.

Also yeah ele didn't scale well into to absurd post-prog final patch stupidity period this time. But it's not like ele's been bad all of BFA, If I recall ele was very strong during BoD.

yep,ele has been doing decently until coruption,and even in legion it was the nr 1 dps,you just had to win the lotto multiple times per boss ))

[Eleuss]

To ask that everyone is on the same level as the (arguably) best DPS class in the game is madness. But I think it is fair to ask for relative balance. I would be happy if each class had one spec, which does it's roll pretty good. That means, that Rogues, Warlocks, Mages and Hunters all have a spec, that can compete for top DPS of a raid or M+. Note that "can compete" does not mean "is the best DPS spec".
Hybrid classes on the other hand have less chances of having a top DPS spec, because they numerically have less DPS specs overall. But they always have the option to focus on their other roles as compensation, while as a pure DPS class you can't.

Now, in BfA you are strongly incentivized to stick to one spec, which lessens the hybrid advantage. Questing as a healer can also be absolutely horrible, so you have the choice between not using your azerite traits while questing, equip worse gear to quest, don't do quests or don't play a healer. That's BfA's fault.

And that shamans are once again a meme is no secret as well. Reworks were promised, but Blizzard didn't deliver. But Ele is not the only spec without scaling. There will never be a time, where all classes are viable all expansion long. It's only bad if one class has no viable spec at all (which is absolutely not the case here).

I dont need to be on the same level but i sure want the potential. I want to scale better and a more fluid playstyle troughout the expansion.Maybe shine in some specific fights. Compare ele shaman in the beginning of an expansion and in the end .... 100% same playstyle. This is our problem.

[Kralljin]

+ having a passive giving you 250% crit dmg SHOULD allow you to have a good scaling in normal conditions.

Debatable.
Elemental Fury essentially offsets the fact that Lava burst doesn't scale with crit, that logic only applies on AoE where Lava burst is barely used.

[LordVargK]

I dont need to be on the same level but i sure want the potential. I want to scale better and a more fluid playstyle troughout the expansion.Maybe shine in some specific fights. Compare ele shaman in the beginning of an expansion and in the end .... 100% same playstyle. This is our problem.

I mean, yeah, don't we all want that?
Considering fire mages: They were garbage at the beginning of the Addon. They always are, and at the end they are pretty good. That has been like that for many addons now. Do you really want that?

And there are so many specs that did not change their playstyle in the slightest over the course of the addon. All specs that don't rely on procs or have static procs to be precise. And those are the specs, that tend to do better in the beginning of an expansion. Which is pretty fair (if the beginning of expansions weren't hot garbage like they were with BfA and imo Legion as well).

[Ezyah]

So your idea is that the % proc from flame shock should scale with a secondary stat ?

[Eleuss]

I mean, yeah, don't we all want that?
Considering fire mages: They were garbage at the beginning of the Addon. They always are, and at the end they are pretty good. That has been like that for many addons now. Do you really want that?

And there are so many specs that did not change their playstyle in the slightest over the course of the addon. All specs that don't rely on procs or have static procs to be precise. And those are the specs, that tend to do better in the beginning of an expansion. Which is pretty fair (if the beginning of expansions weren't hot garbage like they were with BfA and imo Legion as well).

I wouldnt agree on this one. Imagine investing 100hrs in each of them ... the outcome for the ele would be dissapointing if you have the comparison. If you design a specc with this idea (being strong in the beginning (what we are not ) but therefore not scaling as the other classes that start out slower) you have to add statbreakpoints giving us the motivation to work on the class and know later on we are getting stronger again. I dont want to hope for every patch for them making me manually stronger.

- - - Updated - - -

So your idea is that the % proc from flame shock should scale with a secondary stat ?

Yes.
Bind it on crit maybe or 0.7 of your crit stat i dont know they need to play around with it.

[Saltysquidoon]

Debatable.Elemental Fury essentially offsets the fact that Lava burst doesn't scale with crit, that logic only applies on AoE where Lava burst is barely used.

Ah yes I remember when that problem was called killing machine, good times with the old class design team there *cries*.

[LordVargK]

I wouldnt agree on this one. Imagine investing 100hrs in each of them ... the outcome for the ele would be dissapointing if you have the comparison. If you design a specc with this idea (being strong in the beginning (what we are not ) but therefore not scaling as the other classes that start out slower) you have to add statbreakpoints giving us the motivation to work on the class and know later on we are getting stronger again. I dont want to hope for every patch for them making me manually stronger.

Depends on when you invest the 100 hours. 100 hour at the start as a fire mage? No thank you. 100 hours at the end? Maybe. (I play a mage and I don't like fire, because it loads all its damage into one CD).
And as I said, shaman is not alone with this problem. Though your concerns are valid, your suggestion would have the consequence, that Ele will be even weaker at the beginning of an expansion and only slightly stronger at the end. Ele's whole kit needs polishing, chaning one or two things will not be enough.

[Eleuss]

Depends on when you invest the 100 hours. 100 hour at the start as a fire mage? No thank you. 100 hours at the end? Maybe. (I play a mage and I don't like fire, because it loads all its damage into one CD).
And as I said, shaman is not alone with this problem. Though your concerns are valid, your suggestion would have the consequence, that Ele will be even weaker at the beginning of an expansion and only slightly stronger at the end. Ele's whole kit needs polishing, chaning one or two things will not be enough.

I just wanted to be more specific. The way you put that sounds hopeless and its not maybe blizzard hears us and we need to give them something to work on.

[HCLM]

Ele scaling and dmg is perfectly fine. It is just that other classes have better synergy with corruptions than Ele right now. That's all.

[Kralljin]

Ah yes I remember when that problem was called killing machine, good times with the old class design team there *cries*.

Been an Elemental problem since Lava Burst was introduced.

Especially fun when you were also capped on Haste during BL / Haste Trinket procs.
Elemental damage was basically capped during certain situations because all of your secondary stats had caps.

[Eleuss]

Ele scaling and dmg is perfectly fine. It is just that other classes have better synergy with corruptions than Ele right now. That's all.

Its just not dude. Go trough the whole ele mechanic / sims and you will see how poorly designed some components are ... once you know how it works / scales / plays trough the expansion there is no argument in playing it over most of the other caster speccs in the game. There is no point and no fun in progressing with an ele and this doesnt seem to change with shadowlands.

[LordVargK]

I just wanted to be more specific. The way you put that sounds hopeless and its not maybe blizzard hears us and we need to give them something to work on.

I might sound cynical, but I have the impression, that Blizzard's current class design team (the team for WoD, Legion and BfA) does not like ideas other than their own. Else I can not understand this "doubling down of strenghts" argument, which always gets brought up by them and absolutely not realized in the game. I could not tell you the nieche Ele is supposed to fill. It's a cleaving caster, with a focus on single target, where it does average damage. But the devs were content with that (or rather had no ideas how to fix it, so they declared it "fine"). So making suggestions is probably counterproductive...

Hopefully this changes with Shadowlands and to some extend it has already happened, but I will only really believe that, when SL goes live with significant changes.

[Eleuss]

I might sound cynical, but I have the impression, that Blizzard's current class design team (the team for WoD, Legion and BfA) does not like ideas other than their own. Else I can not understand this "doubling down of strenghts" argument, which always gets brought up by them and absolutely not realized in the game. I could not tell you the nieche Ele is supposed to fill. It's a cleaving caster, with a focus on single target, where it does average damage. But the devs were content with that (or rather had no ideas how to fix it, so they declared it "fine"). So making suggestions is probably counterproductive...

Hopefully this changes with Shadowlands and to some extend it has already happened, but I will only really believe that, when SL goes live with significant changes.

Shadowlands looks promising ... i even like some of the changes but the core problem isnt solved yet. And that is how many classes out there are more rewarding to play troughout an expansion than an ele shaman.