SPOILERS: Shadowlands Lore Thread

[Talrath]

More about everything in this thread. I understand that new lore has to be made, however, it shouldnt be that things get retconned. First they said, kiljaeden made the armour, then nope, it was the nethrezim, then nope, they stole it. gets tiring. One of the reason why I only watch lore vids about WoW now instead of experiencing in the game. Its me ranting, pay no heed to me.

[Aucald]

they just keep retconning.

A story you haven't heard before is not a retcon by default.

[Skytotem]

But why a Mantid Warrior? I don't remember any necromancer dealing with any Mantid.

I think it's to reflect that the "Scourge Invasion" Is not just affecting Northrend it's affecting the rest of Azeroth.

[Pebrocks The Warlock]

I think it's to reflect that the "Scourge Invasion" Is not just affecting Northrend it's affecting the rest of Azeroth.

Which Scourge Invasion?

[Verdugo]

Which Scourge Invasion?

Those few reha- sorry, ressurected bosses in Icecrown.

[Pebrocks The Warlock]

Those few reha- sorry, ressurected bosses in Icecrown.

What does that have to do with the topic of the Mantid?

[Verdugo]

What does that have to do with the topic of the Mantid?

I think Skytotem is implying that scourge is running rampant in Pandaria.

[Pebrocks The Warlock]

I think Skytotem is implying that scourge is running rampant in Pandaria.

It just seems to me the Mantid is talking about a specific necromancer and the NPC next time him talking about the necromancer disturbing the balance. This to me seems like the Lich King but Pandaria was hidden.

[Houle]

A story you haven't heard before is not a retcon by default.

come on dude, we both know this doesn't apply to 90% of the things blizz does
they retcon massive amounts of lore. Talrath even gave an example with the LK armour. it was outright stated kil'jaeden forged it, then it was outright stated that the nathrezim forged it, and now its becoming more and more obvious they seemingly just stole it/got it from the jailer. those are flat out retcons, and not a "story we havent heard before"
2 retcons, about the origin of a single armor. thats how inconsistent blizz is

[TheFirstOnes]

"It was outright stated KJ forged it" Wasn't it also stated that the Dreadlords forged it?

Either way, KJ and the Dreadlords could've still "Forged it", just with the Runecarver and the Jailer's presence added in. KJ does have connections with the Shadowlands.

[Aucald]

come on dude, we both know this doesn't apply to 90% of the things blizz does
they retcon massive amounts of lore. Talrath even gave an example with the LK armour. it was outright stated kil'jaeden forged it, then it was outright stated that the nathrezim forged it, and now its becoming more and more obvious they seemingly just stole it/got it from the jailer. those are flat out retcons, and not a "story we havent heard before"
2 retcons, about the origin of a single armor. thats how inconsistent blizz is

And perhaps the demonic rank and file didn't know where it actually came from, Kil'jaeden *told* them he forged it but actually stole it. If you even consider that a retcon, it's so minor that it scarcely qualifies as even a quibble. Kil'jaeden lied, exhorted, and made arrogant claims like other people breathe - it would neither be inconsistent nor out of character for him to lie and claim that he created Frostmourne or the Helm. The Nathrezim too could've claimed they made it when they actually stole it, and it would completely in character for them as well - lying and cunning manipulators that they are.

[Talrath]

A story you haven't heard before is not a retcon by default.

True, but if you think about medan, then things get odd. I thought when blizz was going to add him into the game but they retconned it. Now I`m thinking, what happens to Aegwyn. Did we kill the old gods or did we killed their physical manifestation and put them back into prison. Dead doesnt always stay dead, they twist and turn and sever the lore to fit their new lore.

[Aucald]

True, but if you think about medan, then things get odd. I thought when blizz was going to add him into the game but they retconned it. Now I`m thinking, what happens to Aegwyn. Did we kill the old gods or did we killed their physical manifestation and put them back into prison. Dead doesnt always stay dead, they twist and turn and sever the lore to fit their new lore.

Med'an isn't really a retcon in and of himself, he's just a terrible character for a lot of different reasons.

[Houle]

And perhaps the demonic rank and file didn't know where it actually came from, Kil'jaeden *told* them he forged it but actually stole it. If you even consider that a retcon, it's so minor that it scarcely qualifies as even a quibble. Kil'jaeden lied, exhorted, and made arrogant claims like other people breathe - it would neither be inconsistent nor out of character for him to lie and claim that he created Frostmourne or the Helm. The Nathrezim too could've claimed they made it when they actually stole it, and it would completely in character for them as well - lying and cunning manipulators that they are.

but it wasnt told from their perspective, it was written in spectator mode. for example the warcraft 3 manual, and later in chronicles. and thats a retcon, no other way to describe it

[Destinas]

I wouldn't say Nathanos is a psycho, he's a stone cold sociopath (unless that fits into the defition). Sira seems ACTUALLY insane and driven by some kind of Maw magic, similarly to how the Nelf ghosts attack you in the Maw.

Psychopathy and sociopathy are quite similar.

While psychopaths are classified as people with little or no conscience, sociopaths do have a limited, albeit weak, ability to feel empathy and remorse. Psychopaths can and do follow social conventions when it suits their needs. Sociopaths are more likely to fly off the handle and react violently whenever they're confronted by the consequences of their actions.

Nathanos kind of rides the line. He rarely goes on raging rampages, but he isn't calm and collected when he is challenged. In the short story Dark Mirror and the recent book he shows some remorse for what happened with his cousin, and he feels true love for Sylvanas. He has a sense of loyalty to her, but not really to anyone else or the Horde, and not even to himself anymore.

Then again, as you pointed out, a lot of this is affected by magic, and it would be difficult to assign psychological analyses to something like undeath.

[Aucald]

but it wasnt told from their perspective, it was written in spectator mode. for example the warcraft 3 manual, and later in chronicles. and thats a retcon, no other way to describe it

The Warcraft 3 manual is written like all the other in-game books in WoW, with an assumed scribe as author (such as Garona with the WC2 manual). Frostmourne also isn't mentioned at all in the WC3: RoC manual, as you can confirm here with a quick find operation. It also goes unmentioned in the WC3: TFT manual, which only contains a brief synopsis of WC3's events and some quick blurbs on the new units available to each faction.

[Skytotem]

Which Scourge Invasion?

The one in Pre-Patch

[masterjc]

In case this wasn't already linked.

where is this dialogue?

btw, this could happen in any time, not in present, and it doesnot mean scourge attacked pandaria

maybe some mantid delved into necromancy in past?

like Kel Thuzard. he started Necromancy before meeting Lich King, after he was kicked out from Kirin Tor, he was called by Ner'Zhul

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More about everything in this thread. I understand that new lore has to be made, however, it shouldnt be that things get retconned. First they said, kiljaeden made the armour, then nope, it was the nethrezim, then nope, they stole it. gets tiring. One of the reason why I only watch lore vids about WoW now instead of experiencing in the game. Its me ranting, pay no heed to me.

well, if we take player character POV, we have no idea about lots of stuff and we have heard only rumors, or we speculate. and later, when we learn more, we adjust more info

first we heard rumors about LK, lets say, from random acolyte of cult of the damned in scholomance. we assume LK created it, or maybe LK made everyone think it was his doing, after we kill and adventure more, we learn it was given to LK by nathrezim, and we assume that Nathrezim created it, we go shadowlands and learn more, etc

remember lore books for Legion artifacts in Order Halls?
it required research to understand more about weapons

[Nize]

And perhaps the demonic rank and file didn't know where it actually came from, Kil'jaeden *told* them he forged it but actually stole it. If you even consider that a retcon, it's so minor that it scarcely qualifies as even a quibble. Kil'jaeden lied, exhorted, and made arrogant claims like other people breathe - it would neither be inconsistent nor out of character for him to lie and claim that he created Frostmourne or the Helm. The Nathrezim too could've claimed they made it when they actually stole it, and it would completely in character for them as well - lying and cunning manipulators that they are.

How about Nathrezim making the armor FOR the Jailer. Jailer, out of sensing an opportunity, opts to give the armor back to Nathrezim so that they could put it on the Lich King, further earning KJ's trust after falsely claiming they stole it from Jailer. This would also give the Jailer control over the Lich King, to eventually betray the Burning Legion, without sacrificing his infiltrators, the Nathrezim. It would create a sense of irony in that the one known as the Deceiver, Kil'Jaedan, was the one who was deceived.

[Lady Atia]

where is this dialogue?

btw, this could happen in any time, not in present, and it doesnot mean scourge attacked pandaria

maybe some mantid delved into necromancy in past?

like Kel Thuzard. he started Necromancy before meeting Lich King, after he was kicked out from Kirin Tor, he was called by Ner'Zhul

- - - Updated - - -



well, if we take player character POV, we have no idea about lots of stuff and we have heard only rumors, or we speculate. and later, when we learn more, we adjust more info

first we heard rumors about LK, lets say, from random acolyte of cult of the damned in scholomance. we assume LK created it, or maybe LK made everyone think it was his doing, after we kill and adventure more, we learn it was given to LK by nathrezim, and we assume that Nathrezim created it, we go shadowlands and learn more, etc

remember lore books for Legion artifacts in Order Halls?
it required research to understand more about weapons

Iiirc the Mogu also used Necromancy, right?