Why so much hate for Tinkerer?

[Thage]

The Druid's defining mechanic is shapeshifting. In other words, a Guardian Druid can shift between bear form, cat form, and Moonkin form with ease. They even have attributes of those forms bleeding into each other. I'm not advocating that for the Tinker. I'm saying to use the base mechanic of toggling between a base form to a mech form to simulate a Tinker piloting a mech.

You're advocating reusing the core mechanic of the Druid class. I'm not sure why you're saying you're not when you then proceed to... reuse the core mechanic of the Druid class.

You mean other than the fact that a Tinker would be in a mech firing missiles, charges, lasers, and gravity weapons, while a Hunter would be shooting a bow or a gun with their pet? It should be fairly obvious why they're different.

None of which you had explained beforehand when I asked you to. You went on and on about 'it's different because it's different.' Also, most of that stuff Engineering already does. How would that feel distinct from a skilled Hunter working gadgets and bombs into their rotation?

Except you failed to mention the real reason why Mistweavers were changed; Blizzard couldn't balance melee (fist weaving) with standard healing (mist weaving). The spec ALWAYS had a mana component to it, and there's no reason a Monk wouldn't use mana to heal, since Mistweaving is using magic. That by the way is why every healing spec uses Mana, because every healing spec is using magic. Obviously, a science-based class wouldn't use mana, and it isn't rocket science to figure out a resource that wouldn't use mana to heal.

It's not because they use magic. I don't know where you got that idea. They use mana because mana is a reliable, time-tested mechanic to regulate healers and provide strategic gameplay through mana management. They have never been able to move healers away from mana despite attempts previously. I didn't mention Fistweaving because it wasn't relevant to the conversation!

As for failing to convince you, I'm not surprised. You already had your mind made up before we began this conversation.

No, I didn't. I've said multiple times in this thread that I am not opposed to the class, but it needs to feel distinct from Engineering to warrant the slot. So far, all you've offered are stolen concepts, half-baked explanations, and a victim complex because I don't like the shitty concepts you've thrown out.

Here's 30 seconds of work on my end for a potential Tinker spec:
The spec mixes ranged attacks with guardian NPCs, such as alarm-o-bots to increase stealth detection, walking mines for splash damage, and turrets for burst single-target DPS. The spec's iconic skill is Overdrive, instantly exploding any guardians currently deployed dealing X damage to all nearby enemies, and increases the damage of your ranged attacks by Y for Z seconds per exploded guardian, stacking up to A times.

^ There. 30 seconds and I put more thought into this shit than your entire godawful class writeup. Try harder and cry less.

[goldlock]

Like undead forms for Death Knights?

Giving each Monk race special martial arts animations for their abilities?

Giving each Shaman race their own unique totems?

Giving each Paladin race their own unique racial mount?

And of course, Druids getting a unique form for each race, and multiple customization options for their forms.

All of those are one offs without further work... I really doubt people would want a grand total of 4 mech skins.

[Shakana]

The main reason I dislike the idea is that it will likely screw with engineering in major ways. If you want a steampunk vibe, go all in with engineering.

Plus, being totally honest, some of the people who are constantly creating threads to advocate for it are annoying.

Last reason--and most important--is that the game has enough classes and doesn't need any more. You've already got gnomes and goblins as races that lean this direction and a profession that plays well for this.

I think the exact same. Like if we didn't already have anything similar, all fine, but i just feel there is no need, it's just to add for the sake of adding it.
If we need another class in the future, i want something else i have never seen before on a profession or similar to some other class, something unique.

[Theangryone]

You could just as easily ask why there is so much love for a class that only exists in your head as there is so much hate for it.

[Teriz]

I dislike Tinkers because the creation of a tinker class will basically steal things and flavor from a profession that has been around since Vanilla, THREE races, and a class.

Robot pets? You'd have to steal that from hunters.

Miniature robots? Engineering has that for a variety of different purposes. Same goes for guns and gadgets. Mech suits don't work because they're just like pre-existing mounts.

Then you basically steal from both themes of gnomes, mechagnomes, and goblins, so much so that now the identity of all three has been stripped down to nothing.

Basically, in order to develop a tinker class, you'd have to stop adding things to engineering. That isn't right. If you want a tinker, go level engineering on a character.

Except none of that would happen. A class' abilities don't effect what gets added to a profession.

[Lex Icon]

I dislike Tinkers because the creation of a tinker class will basically steal things and flavor from a profession that has been around since Vanilla, THREE races, and a class.

Robot pets? You'd have to steal that from hunters.

Miniature robots? Engineering has that for a variety of different purposes. Same goes for guns and gadgets. Mech suits don't work because they're just like pre-existing mounts.

Then you basically steal from both themes of gnomes, mechagnomes, and goblins, so much so that now the identity of all three has been stripped down to nothing.

Basically, in order to develop a tinker class, you'd have to stop adding things to engineering. That isn't right. If you want a tinker, go level engineering on a character.

i'd gladly trade the engineering profession for an engineering themed class seeing as blizz doesn't seem to want the professions to matter.

[Teriz]

You're advocating reusing the core mechanic of the Druid class. I'm not sure why you're saying you're not when you then proceed to... reuse the core mechanic of the Druid class.

And I've already pointed out how they're not the same.

None of which you had explained beforehand when I asked you to. You went on and on about 'it's different because it's different.' Also, most of that stuff Engineering already does. How would that feel distinct from a skilled Hunter working gadgets and bombs into their rotation?

I really need to explain how this;



Is different than this;



???

Also none of the Tinker abilities exist in engineering.


Also if you feel that Blizzard requires mana for a healing spec, we'll just have to agree to disagree.
- - - Updated - - -

All of those are one offs without further work... I really doubt people would want a grand total of 4 mech skins.

Um, Blizzard just produced more Undead forms for all the Allied Races.

They created new totems for all the new allied races.

They created new Druid forms for all the allied races.

They created a new Paladin mount for Z Trolls....

But yeah, let's keep being dishonest.

[Shiza]

And I've already pointed out how they're not the same.



I really need to explain how this;



Is different than this;



???

Also none of the Tinker abilities exist in engineering.


Also if you feel that Blizzard requires mana for a healing spec, we'll just have to agree to disagree.
- - - Updated - - -



Um, Blizzard just produced more Undead forms for all the Allied Races.

They created new totems for all the new allied races.

They created new Druid forms for all the allied races.

They created a new Paladin mount for Z Trolls....

But yeah, let's keep being dishonest.

My question would be, why do you need Tinkers, when you don't do any game content which required you to learn how this game actually works so far?

I mean, you can just get the Shredder Mount and RP a Tinker.

[goldlock]

And I've already pointed out how they're not the same.



I really need to explain how this;



Is different than this;



???

Also none of the Tinker abilities exist in engineering.


Also if you feel that Blizzard requires mana for a healing spec, we'll just have to agree to disagree.
- - - Updated - - -



Um, Blizzard just produced more Undead forms for all the Allied Races.

They created new totems for all the new allied races.

They created new Druid forms for all the allied races.

They created a new Paladin mount for Z Trolls....

But yeah, let's keep being dishonest.

Yes... they made one offs or changes for an entire race... who is being dishonest I said they did one offs.

[Teriz]

Yes... they made one offs or changes for an entire race... who is being dishonest I said they did one offs.

Except it isn't a one-off because they continuously add to it. In other words, when you create a class that requires multiple undead skins for each available race, you have to create multiple undead customizations for each race that is added to the class.

How is that any different than a Tinker mech getting customizations?

[Trollokdamus]

You're trolling, I get it. Want to use Thrall as an example for your logic? Go for it. He is the first character that I can think of lore-wise, to lose his connection to his preferred affinity. No one else comes to mind, and google didn't help either. And engineers literally build everything tinkers do, outside of mechs. Stop reaching.

Don't have a proper counterargument to something? Dismiss it as trolling. Way to go, man.

Of course I'm gonna mention Thrall, because why wouldn't I? I'm also gonna mention blood knights who had lost their connection to the Light due to lack of faith and had to suck it out from a naaru instead. And blood elves in general who lost their connection to arcane energies with the destruction of the Sunwell. And draenei who also lost their connection to the Light after being exposed to the red mist. And arakkoa who were cut off from Rukhmar's power due to the Curse of Sethe. And Zandalari prelates who were no longer able to access their power following the death of Rezan. And probably others whom I can't think of right now.

Again, engineers may build the devices, but a tech using class would wield them in combat as their main weapon. Same as how blacksmiths craft armor and melee weapons yet it is warriors who use them in battle.

[Teriz]

I mean, you can just get the Shredder Mount and RP a Tinker.

How can you RP a Tinker in a shredder mount when the shredder mount can't be used indoors, has no abilities, and vanishes when it gets hit by a pebble?

[goldlock]

Except it isn't a one-off because they continuously add to it. In other words, when you create a class that requires multiple undead skins for each available race, you have to create multiple undead customizations for each race that is added to the class.

How is that any different than a Tinker mech getting customizations?

You can't create multiple mechs for each class only tinkers.

There is a exception to this rule with warglavies a weapon only dhs can use and mog I will grant you that but the only other weapon made as rarely as those are hunter weapons.

[Thage]

And I've already pointed out how they're not the same.

You've pointed out how they're not the same cosmetically. That accounts to fuck-all when the discussion is on how it's mechanically different, which you have not adequately explained.

I really need to explain how this;



Is different than this;



???

Oh that's adorable. Now get back to me about Marksman hunters using guns and mechanical pets. You know, the ones that aren't just Alleria Windrunner. I know, hard ask for someone with the creative gifts of cement, but I'm an optimist.

Also none of the Tinker abilities exist in engineering.

Bombs, rockets, boosts, mounts, gliders, slow-fall, scopes, explosives, mechanical helpers... am I missing anything?

Also if you feel that Blizzard requires mana for a healing spec, we'll just have to agree to disagree.

I mean, sure, but there's a big difference between 'agree to disagree' and 'I am deliberately ignoring 15+ years of the game's development history and pushing a headcanon in order to make a claim that has no factual basis.' Blizz has tried manaless healers before. They were a shitshow and never made it out of internal testing. Therefore, there is no reason to assume things would be any different this time. Attempting the same thing multiple times and expecting a different result is the definition of insanity, and while the developers are many things, insane is not typically one of them.

[Teriz]

You can't create multiple mechs for each class only tinkers.

Just like you can't create multiple customizable forms for each class only druids.

There is a exception to this rule with warglavies a weapon only dhs can use and mog I will grant you that but the only other weapon made as rarely as those are hunter weapons.

And what about Druid forms and their customizations?

- - - Updated - - -

You've pointed out how they're not the same cosmetically. That accounts to fuck-all when the discussion is on how it's mechanically different, which you have not adequately explained.

I also discussed how they're different mechanically as well. Again, Druids are mechanically designed to be able to switch through multiple forms and use abilities from other forms. They even have talents that enhance this gameplay. Tinkers wouldn't operate like that. They would change into their spec form and that form would have a set of abilities for that form. Not to mention that thanks to its mechanical theme, Tinkers would have abilities fitting for that theme, like Eject or Self Destruct for example.

Oh that's adorable. Now get back to me about Marksman hunters using guns and mechanical pets. You know, the ones that aren't just Alleria Windrunner. I know, hard ask for someone with the creative gifts of cement, but I'm an optimist.

Mechanical pets and Guns are an option. The iconography of Hunters are arrows and animals. You know this. Further, Tinkers more than likely won't use guns or mechanical pets, so even that point is moot.

Bombs, rockets, boosts, mounts, gliders, slow-fall, scopes, explosives, mechanical helpers... am I missing anything?

Yes, the Tinker's abilities from HotS and WC3, and the ability to actually fight inside a mech.

I mean, sure, but there's a big difference between 'agree to disagree' and 'I am deliberately ignoring 15+ years of the game's development history and pushing a headcanon in order to make a claim that has no factual basis.' Blizz has tried manaless healers before. They were a shitshow and never made it out of internal testing. Therefore, there is no reason to assume things would be any different this time. Attempting the same thing multiple times and expecting a different result is the definition of insanity, and while the developers are many things, insane is not typically one of them.

When did Blizzard try Mana-less healing, and when did Blizzard say there is no way for them to construct a healer that doesn't use mana?

[goldlock]

Just like you can't create multiple customizable forms for each class only druids.



And what about Druid forms and their customizations?

I get the sense they don't really enjoy making reskins with how rarely they do so. barring legion we are taking one or two forms per expansion

[Teriz]

I get the sense they don't really enjoy making reskins with how rarely they do so. barring legion we are taking one or two forms per expansion

That's an assumption, not a fact. Further, Blizzard could be super lazy and just rehash the skins they use for current mechs as customizable options;

https://wowwiki.fandom.com/wiki/Mekkatorque_Suit
https://wow.gamepedia.com/Iron_Reaver
https://wow.gamepedia.com/Siegecrafter_Blackfuse
https://wow.gamepedia.com/G.M.O.D.
https://wow.gamepedia.com/Sicco_Thermaplugg
https://wow.gamepedia.com/Mechano-tank
https://wow.gamepedia.com/Lightforged_Warframe

Or just do color-swaps, no one would mind.

[PrivateSmiley]

You're advocating reusing the core mechanic of the Druid class. I'm not sure why you're saying you're not when you then proceed to... reuse the core mechanic of the Druid class.

The Druid's defining mechanic is shapeshifting. In other words, a Guardian Druid can shift between bear form, cat form, and Moonkin form with ease. They even have attributes of those forms bleeding into each other. I'm not advocating that for the Tinker. I'm saying to use the base mechanic of toggling between a base form to a mech form to simulate a Tinker piloting a mech.

I'm saying to use the base mechanic of toggling between a base form to a mech form to simulate a Tinker piloting a mech.

And I've already pointed out how they're not the same.

I fail to see how this make sense. "To use the base mechanic" implies you are literally using the same thing.

It would be like if i make a cookie recipe with chocolate chips and share it with you, and you decide to swap out the chocolate chips with almonds, and then tell people you made a entire brand new recipe when all you did was change a single thing from my original recipe.

[Teriz]

I fail to see how this make sense. "To use the base mechanic" implies you are literally using the same thing.

It would be like if i make a cookie recipe with chocolate chips and share it with you, and you decide to swap out the chocolate chips with almonds, and then tell people you made a entire brand new recipe when all you did was change a single thing from my original recipe.

Chocolate chip cookies and Almond cookies aren't the same cookie.

Also you took those responses out of context. Thage originally said "defining mechanic", not "core mechanic".

[ONCHEhap]

I'm fine with Tinkers,but Tinkerers can rot in heck if you ask me