Why so much hate for Tinkerer?

[Thage]

I also discussed how they're different mechanically as well. Again, Druids are mechanically designed to be able to switch through multiple forms and use abilities from other forms. They even have talents that enhance this gameplay. Tinkers wouldn't operate like that. They would change into their spec form and that form would have a set of abilities for that form. Not to mention that thanks to its mechanical theme, Tinkers would have abilities fitting for that theme, like Eject or Self Destruct for example.

There are few situations where a druid will rapidly switch through their forms. In most gameplay, a druid will remain in their spec shapeshift. I find myself agreeing with Shiza in their doubt of how familiar you actually are with the game's mechanics above an extremely casual level.

Mechanical pets and Guns are an option. The iconography of Hunters are arrows and animals. You know this. Further, Tinkers more than likely won't use guns or mechanical pets, so even that point is moot.

Accordng to whom? I would argue that a dwarf using rifles and a gnome using steampunk guns are just as iconic to the Hunter class as a high elf with a longbow. Iconography for a given class is influenced by race with three exceptions: monks, death knights, and demon hunters. Hunter is not one of those three classes. You can make a claim, but you haven't proven it. Even if I were to give you the most charitable benefit of the doubt, which I'm not really inclined to at this point, all you're really proving so far is that Alleria is an iconic hunter, even though that's more because she's one of the Warcraft II veterans.

Yes, the Tinker's abilities from HotS and WC3, and the ability to actually fight inside a mech.

So four abilities and a mech are enough to carry an entire class among two or three specs? News to me.

When did Blizzard try Mana-less healing, and when did Blizzard say there is no way for them to construct a healer that doesn't use mana?

(Placeholder, I'll come back to this later tonight as I"m due for D&D and thus not really with the time to google things for you)

[Teriz]

There are few situations where a druid will rapidly switch through their forms. In most gameplay, a druid will remain in their spec shapeshift. I find myself agreeing with Shiza in their doubt of how familiar you actually are with the game's mechanics above an extremely casual level.

Then explain level 45 talent row for each Druid spec.

Accordng to whom?

According to the icons, the names of the abilities and talents, and the descriptors of the class and the specs.

So four abilities and a mech are enough to carry an entire class among two or three specs? News to me.

More like 15 abilities and a mech, and Blizzard built the Monk, DK, and DH class with less.

[Ielenia]

(Placeholder, I'll come back to this later tonight as I"m due for D&D and thus not really with the time to google things for you)

If memory serves, pre- or early-alpha mistweaver monk did not have a mana bar and had pure chi-based healing. I'm trying to find more information, but pre-alpha MoP stuff is hard to find.

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You saying its "meaningless" is not a fact.

But it is meaningless. Just like the fact that a car has an engine doesn't "prove" that the car was built by the Ford company. You haven't given any evidence whatsoever that those "similarities" are in any way, shape or form relevant.

It's still evidence.

For what you are trying to claim? No, they're not.

Yes, which is why Metamorphosis had to be removed from Warlocks in order for Demon Hunters to become a viable class.

"Had to be removed to make the class" is an unproven claim, as explained numerous times.

And basic logic should tell you that you can't apply real world logic to a video game.

Yet here we are (again).

Teriz, it's not "real world" logic. It's just logic. Just because it's a work of fiction, Teriz, it doesn't mean the universe is "completely illogical, anything-can-happen-for-whatever-reason", even if said fictional universe has magic in it. And, in this case, your claim that "characters within said universe learn things on their own, spontaneously" is a complete nonsensical and illogical claim.

[Teriz]

But it is meaningless. Just like the fact that a car has an engine doesn't "prove" that the car was built by the Ford company. You haven't given any evidence whatsoever that those "similarities" are in any way, shape or form relevant.

What a dumb analogy. A better analogy would be that Ford's last three compact sedans had four cylinders and were automatics. Thus it stands to reason that Ford's next compact sedan will also be four cylinder and automatic.

For what you are trying to claim? No, they're not.

So the last three WoW classes coming from WC3 heroes is not evidence for the next WoW class to also come from a WC3 hero?

"Had to be removed to make the class" is an unproven claim, as explained numerous times.

Yeah, Warlocks just had Demonology nuked from orbit in 6.2, and Metamorphosis is removed from Demonology and Warlocks in the next expansion. The same expansion that just happens to introduce the Demon Hunter class.

What a coincidence.....

Teriz, it's not "real world" logic. It's just logic. Just because it's a work of fiction, Teriz, it doesn't mean the universe is "completely illogical, anything-can-happen-for-whatever-reason", even if said fictional universe has magic in it. And, in this case, your claim that "characters within said universe learn things on their own, spontaneously" is a complete nonsensical and illogical claim.

I'm not dragging this dumb and thoroughly debunked argument into this thread.

[Kalisandra]

It should be noted that a Tinker healer has a good chance of being the first WoW healing spec that isn't using mana to heal, since it doesn't use magic.

IT will have to use something like mana, or it'll be impossible to balance against other healers.

As for for your notion of how they might heal, a huge number of those ideas are "as a Shaman or Monk, but with a Engineering skin". And the DPS suggestions are "Totems, but with robots instead of gouts of lava, etc.".

And you dodged the question of niche with 'It's up to Blizzard'. Sure, it's up to Blizzard, but that you don't seem to be able to identify an open niche suggests that maybe there isn't one.

[Shiza]

How can you RP a Tinker in a shredder mount when the shredder mount can't be used indoors, has no abilities, and vanishes when it gets hit by a pebble?

Use for fantasy or educate yourself on how the class works and how your class fanfiction is basically ripping off other tank spells with your tank fanfiction, that will be the point where you can actually make use of a new class and actually need it for diverse playstyles.

[Kalisandra]

Even on this site, tinker was more popular than necromancer so title of this thread is already false. People don't really hate it.
And if we would go with class that comes next to wow based on popularity on fansites, it would be tinker.

All that poll showed is that people motivated to answer that poll liked Tinker more than Necromancer, or even that they simply disliked Tinker less.

It doesn't show how much they like the idea of Tinkers being introduced compared with not introducing another class at all, anything else.

[Teriz]

IT will have to use something like mana, or it'll be impossible to balance against other healers.

As for for your notion of how they might heal, a huge number of those ideas are "as a Shaman or Monk, but with a Engineering skin". And the DPS suggestions are "Totems, but with robots instead of gouts of lava, etc.".

And you dodged the question of niche with 'It's up to Blizzard'. Sure, it's up to Blizzard, but that you don't seem to be able to identify an open niche suggests that maybe there isn't one.

Well the difference between Totems, Serpent Statues, and Turrets is that you can summon multiple turrets of the same type. That offers up a different type of gameplay than what you see from Monks and Shaman, so I'm afraid your assessment that its just "shaman or monk in engineering skin" is incorrect.

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Use for fantasy or educate yourself on how the class works and how your class fanfiction is basically ripping off other tank spells with your tank fanfiction, that will be the point where you can actually make use of a new class and actually need it for diverse playstyles.

You didn't answer the question.

[Lightning-]

They really need to make a Tinker megathread, because quite clearly the people in this forum can't stop spamming Tinker threads.

You are 100% right.

[Kalisandra]

A tinker could work as a raw dps class. Just lose the mechs,and automation and make them more of a gunslinger mid ranged class.

I predict that if that happened, Ret's (and probably Enhance) would get "they're melee" re-emphasised yet again and everything with more than a 10 yard range taken away or turned into a melee attack. My point being, it's a niche that's already partly occupied (sometimes more, sometimes less), and the experience with DHs shows that in order to give a clear niche for a new class, old classes/specs that sit in that area get clobbered.

[Shiza]

You didn't answer the question.

I answered it. Two of your Tinker Tank abilities steal the mass grip element of Gorefriends grasp while being also damagin abilities. Fucking 2. One basically steals the Ox Statue. Your Fanfiction has no concept of active mitigation, which is the most important part of how a tank operates. You obviously have no clue of the most basic class mechanics, so you just don't need a new class and you should just not involve yourself in discussions about new classes without the minimum knowledge of how to play this game.

[Teriz]

I answered it. Two of your Tinker Tank abilities steal the mass grip element of Gorefriends grasp while being also damagin abilities. Fucking 2. One basically steals the Ox Statue. Your Fanfiction has no concept of active mitigation, which is the most important part of how a tank operates. You obviously have no clue of the most basic class mechanics, so you just don't need a new class and you should just not involve yourself in discussions about new classes without the minimum knowledge of how to play this game.

Simply because abilities share concepts doesn't mean one is stealing from another. Tinkers have gravity weapons, so it stands to reason that they would have a mechanic that draws in a target. It's not like other classes also have abilities that pull targets to them.

As for active mitigation, simply reduce the cool down of Overheat and there you go. Feel free to calm down now.

And no, you didn't answer the question.

[Shiza]

Simply because abilities share concepts doesn't mean one is stealing from another. Tinkers have gravity weapons, so it stands to reason that they would have a mechanic that draws in a target. It's not like other classes also have abilities that pull targets to them.

As for active mitigation, simply reduce the cool down of Overheat and there you go. Feel free to calm down now.

Gorefriends Grasp is actually a unique core ability of the DK and one of its most important CDs to control mobs in a dungeon. And you are giving it to Tinkers twice, which really shows you have no clue of what you are writing about.

And really? That is your idea of active mitigation? Fuck, I wouldn't even want to go to a normal leveling dungeon with you, it certainly would be a wipe fest.

And again, why do you need a Tinker? You don't know how the game works. You can emote a mech with a 2 inch you know what at your erp server. Let people who play the game and know how it works discuss new classes and not a guy for whom elite world quests are probably cutting edge overtuned high end content.

[threads]

i'd rather have something cool like a spellblade and throws conjured swords or something. tinker is so goofy.

[Teriz]

Gorefriends Grasp is actually a unique core ability of the DK and one of its most important CDs to control mobs in a dungeon. And you are giving it to Tinkers twice, which really shows you have no clue of what you are writing about.

Gorefiend's Grasp pulls the target towards whatever individual you targeted. Ursol's Vortex pulls you to the center of whatever you targeted on the ground. Magnetic Armor pulls you to the Tinker.

I'm not seeing a problem here.

And again, why do you need a Tinker?

It's already been explained multiple times.

[Kalisandra]

J
Mechanical pets and Guns are an option. The iconography of Hunters are arrows and animals. You know this. Further, Tinkers more than likely won't use guns or mechanical pets, so even that point is moot.

The iconic Hunter for many long-time WoW players is the Dwarf Hunter in the original WoW cinematic. The one with a bear pet and a gun. Not some Elf with a bow, a Dwarf with a gun (and a fabulous beard).

[szandos]

I'd rather they spend the time on making the existing classes more interesting and better balanced.

[Rageadon]

its like 10 peope on this forum that wants it, they think they represent the entire wow fan base and if you tell them to fuck off they go nuts on you, Tinker is a boring class concept and having an entire xpack around that concept will suck major ass

[Teriz]

The iconic Hunter for many long-time WoW players is the Dwarf Hunter in the original WoW cinematic. The one with a bear pet and a gun. Not some Elf with a bow, a Dwarf with a gun (and a fabulous beard).

Yeah, the population numbers doesn't bear that out. There's way more Elven hunters (of all stripes) than Dwarven hunters. There's also more Orc, Human, Troll, Tauren, etc. than Dwarven hunters as well.

But I digress.....

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its like 10 peope on this forum that wants it, they think they represent the entire wow fan base and if you tell them to fuck off they go nuts on you, Tinker is a boring class concept and having an entire xpack around that concept will suck major ass

https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...W-class-in-9-0

Way more than 10.

[Kalisandra]

Gorefiend's Grasp pulls the target towards whatever individual you targeted. Ursol's Vortex pulls you to the center of whatever you targeted on the ground. Magnetic Armor pulls you to the Tinker.

With a name like that I assume that clothies, leather wearers, and NPC mobs that don't wear armour would be immune.

Hey... They run round in mechs called 'warframes', but Lightforged can't be Tinkers? That's a fail right there.

Making them Int based messes up weapons for tanks and DPS severely.

You gave them a Stealth detection? Seriously?

And you allow 2 turrets up and for a tank they AoE taunt? And you tend to want CDs that both reduce damage taken and give a movement buff, and for the tank also do damage?

You're wanting them to have a random stun on their standard DPS attacks? Yeah, no.

Then we have a melee DPS that's effectively a reskinned Enhance Shaman...

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Yeah, the population numbers doesn't bear that out. There's way more Elven hunters (of all stripes) than Dwarven hunters. There's also more Orc, Human, Troll, Tauren, etc. than Dwarven hunters as well.

You get these stats from where? Not that they seem unreasonable, mainly because Dwarves themselves aren't that popular a race. However, what people find iconic and what they play isn't necessarily the same thing.