Why so much hate for Tinkerer?

[Triceron]

So are engineers like Mekkatorque, Blackfuse, and Gazlowe the same as the profession engineers like a Warrior picking up the profession, or are they something different entirely?

They're NPCs.

Tyrande is not a Priest/Hunter who has Druid abilities who is now a Warrior by that same standard. She is simply a Priestess of the Moon, and now a Night Warrior.

[GrimReaper673]

So are engineers like Mekkatorque, Blackfuse, and Gazlowe the same as the profession engineers like a Warrior picking up the profession, or are they something different entirely?



Except Blizzard has stated that Reforged is canon.
https://www.toomuchgaming.net/blog-n...ld-of-warcraft




That contradicts gameplay. You'd need a lore statement to prove that.



And the Tinker's Union in Undermine, and Tinkers in Goblin yore, and various references to Tinkers in WoW.



Why would Blizzard view the profession the same lore wise and not gameplay wise?



The difference is that Blizzard themselves stated that they placed the Necromancer into the Death Knight class. They also gave the DKs their abilities.

I'm sure you can provide a similar Blizzard statement backing up what you're saying correct?

Except that's not what the article indicates at all. It says they're changing WCIII scripts and campaigns here and there to fit lore ESTABLISHED BY WOW. Either you didn't read the article you linked as evidence or you're being deliberately dishonest.

[Teriz]

Obviously profession items require materials. I meant ON USE, specifically. The more powerful and other abilities empowering it (which isn't really true anyway, IT empowers OTHER abilities after it's used) don't really change the core game play of just pushing the button to use the ability.

Carve reduces its cooldown.

If Tinker were to become a class and would use explosives does this mean they'd have a limited supply and need to find materials to craft the "items" they'd use in their abilities?

Point being, IF Tinker were to become a class, they would use their abilities just like every other class does meaning they've have the "item" ready to use, and not be inventing it on the spot.

They wouldn't need to invent that particular item though. Let's say their invention is Pocket Factory, and they use Pocket Factories to produce all of their bombs?

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Except that's not what the article indicates at all. It says they're changing WCIII scripts and campaigns here and there to fit lore ESTABLISHED BY WOW. Either you didn't read the article you linked as evidence or you're being deliberately dishonest.

Yes, and they're doing that because Reforged is considered canon by Blizzard, and they're bringing it in line with WoW.

I'm sorry if I wasn't more clear.

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They're NPCs.

Tyrande is not a Priest/Hunter who has Druid abilities who is now a Warrior by that same standard. She is simply a Priestess of the Moon, and now a Night Warrior.

Yes, and you can be a Hunter to be like Tyrande. Even some of the Hunter class' abilities (Arcane Arrow, Sentinel, True Shot Aura) comes from Tyrande.

Can I do the same with the engineering profession in regards to Gazlowe or Mekkatorque?

[Triceron]

Yes, and you can be a Hunter to be like Tyrande. Even some of the Hunter class' abilities (Arcane Arrow, Sentinel, True Shot Aura) comes from Tyrande.

Can I do the same as an engineer with Gazlowe or Mekkatorque?

Yes, by taking up Engineering, you could represent those characters.

I mean if you equate your Hunter as being like Tyrande even though they have zero access to Healing abilities, to Starfall, then by all means your Rogue with Engineering would represent Gazlowe and Mekkatorque.

It's just not a very good representation, in both accounts. In both cases, neither of these fulfill the class fantasy of either a PotM or a Tinker, and we're just talking about subjective wish fulfillment using whatever is available.

I personally don't think any class currently would represent Necromancers, Wardens, Shadow Hunters or Dark Rangers either honestly. Black Arrow was even removed. But if we're talking about using Player classes to represent other unrelated things, then yeah we can say Priests are Bards because they sing or Mages are Dragonsworn because they have a dragon-head fire ability. That's absolutely valid from an RP standpoint. It's just not canon or lore-based.

[Teriz]

Oh? What you wrote there looks a lot like... headcanon.

Because:
• It's not apparent, at all. They even speak of "companions" which indicate they're adventurers.
• It's not "obvious" that their schematics were made by a "highly skilled engineer somewhere".
• There hasn't been proven to exist this "superior class of engineer".

Yeah, I respectfully disagree. Given what they're talking about in that blip, it's pretty clear that they're talking about engineers in general, not a Shaman who moonlights as an engineer on the weekends.

[ymirsson]

I'm sorry if I wasn't more clear.

You are not alone.

[Teriz]

Yes, by taking up Engineering, you could represent those characters.

What abilities in engineering allow me to emulate Gazlowe or Mekkatorque?

I mean if you equate your Hunter as being like Tyrande even though they have zero access to Healing abilities, to Starfall, then by all means your Rogue with Engineering would represent Gazlowe and Mekkatorque.

Well again, Tyrande has had Sentinel, as did the Hunter class. She had Arcane Shot, which is a mainstay in the Hunter class. She had trueshot Aura, which is another mainstay in the class.

It's just not a very good representation, in both accounts. In both cases, neither of these fulfill the class fantasy of either a PotM or a Tinker, and we're just talking about subjective wish fulfillment using whatever is available.

If you wish to be a mystical Night Elf archer, you can be in the Hunter class, and its pretty easy to do. If I want to be a mech-piloting Goblin or Gnome, no such luck.

I don't think any class currently would represent Necromancers (DKs), Wardens (Rogues), Shadow Hunters (Shaman) or Dark Rangers (Hunters) either honestly. Black Arrow was even removed.

Their abilities have shown up in those classes multiple times throughout the years. Some of those abilities are STILL present in those classes.

[Swnem]

This thread made me hate Tinkers 46% more.

It's not the Tinker class' fault that people on forums are stubborn and spiteful or happen to disagree with you.

Regardless of what is said in this thread, i still want it 100%. What people say on mmo champ is completely irrelevant.

[Katchii]

SNIP

My ENTIRE point was simply that the level of competency required to effectively utilize technology in battle can be taught. You seem to be of the opinion that only mechanical geniuses of the level of Blackfuse, Mekkatorque and Gazlowe are capable of effectively using technology when there are a myriad of examples throughout WoW that prove otherwise.

Just because it's called "Tinker" (which you've even said is not necessarily going to be the name) doesn't mean every tiny facet of the class HAS to be the textbook definition of the class where they literally invent stuff on the fly and are literal mechanical geniuses when anyone that is willing and able to learn the craft, can take those concepts and turn them into effective battlefield tactics.

But with that said, I'm done. There's simply no use discussing with you.

When it comes to Tinker, you're apparently the only authority who can dictate what they can and can't do, who can and can't be one and what it takes to be one.

I've already said I'm OK with them being added, and actually look forward to seeing them if they ever get implemented. But after "discussing" this with you, I'll just hope that if it does ever get implemented, it's done in a way that you dislike so much that you don't end up playing one.

[Triceron]

What abilities in engineering allow me to emulate Gazlowe or Mekkatorque?

Probably the use of glove rockets, bombs, rocket boots and shield deflectors.

Well again, Tyrande has had Sentinel, as did the Hunter class. She had Arcane Shot, which is a mainstay in the Hunter class. She had trueshot Aura, which is another mainstay in the class.

As did? So where is Sentinel now?

Arcane shot? Tyrande didn't have any Arcane shot.

Trueshot aura is the only carry over and frankly how much do you feel like playing as a Priestess of the Moon when you play a Hunter with Trueshot? And what about that Tyrande is the Priest rep in Hearthstone?

It's a weak connection, wouldn't you agree?

If you wish to be a mystical Night Elf archer, you can be in the Hunter class, and its pretty easy to do. If I want to be a mech-piloting Goblin or Gnome, no such luck.

Because those are NPCs doing things our characters can't, like Sylvanas using Banshee powers, Maiev and the Wardens trapping people in Fel Crystals or Anduin doing crazy mass ressurections in battle.

Their abilities have shown up in those classes multiple times throughout the years. Some of those abilities are STILL present in those classes.

And abilities aren't lore, otherwise the Demon Hunter would not be playable because some of their abilities are STILL present in existing classes. Evasion is still a part of the Rogue kit, and Rogues can still wield the Blades of Azzinoth, right? So in a way back before Legion, Rogues were the one that filled the gameplay representation of a Demon Hunter. It had nothing to do with lore or classes though.

[Teriz]

My ENTIRE point was simply that the level of competency required to effectively utilize technology in battle can be taught. You seem to be of the opinion that only mechanical geniuses of the level of Blackfuse, Mekkatorque and Gazlowe are capable of effectively using technology when there are a myriad of examples throughout WoW that prove otherwise.

Just because it's called "Tinker" (which you've even said is not necessarily going to be the name) doesn't mean every tiny facet of the class HAS to be the textbook definition of the class where they literally invent stuff on the fly and are literal mechanical geniuses when anyone that is willing and able to learn the craft, can take those concepts and turn them into effective battlefield tactics.

Except them being mechanical genius inventors is the archetype of the hero. Again, like a medieval Tony Stark. We can't take that archetype and apply it to some bored Rogue digging for scraps to make a pair of goggles.

I've already said I'm OK with them being added, and actually look forward to seeing them if they ever get implemented. But after "discussing" this with you, I'll just hope that if it does ever get implemented, it's done in a way that you dislike so much that you don't end up playing one.

Well that's rather mature of you....

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Probably the use of glove rockets, bombs, rocket boots and shield deflectors.

Where's the mech I can pilot and punch monsters in the face like Gazlowe and Mekkatorque?

As did? So where is Sentinel now?

Arcane shot? Tyrande didn't have any Arcane shot.

Trueshot aura is the only carry over and frankly how much do you feel like playing as a Priestess of the Moon when you play a Hunter with Trueshot?

You're firing mystical arrows and playing as a Night Elf. How is that not like Tyrande? Also just because Sentinel is absent in the Hunter class now doesn't mean it won't ever return.

It's a weak connection, wouldn't you agree?

Nope, because Blizzard removes and adds abilities all the time. Hunter has been the home of the majority of Tyrande's abilities, and that will no doubt continue in the future.

Because those are NPCs doing things our characters can't, like Sylvanas using Banshee powers, Maiev and the Wardens trapping people in Fel Crystals or Anduin doing crazy mass ressurections in battle.

Which is a balance restriction. Piloting a mech or even having Tinker abilities aren't outlandish abilities like the ones you mentioned.

And abilities aren't lore, otherwise the Demon Hunter would not be playable because some of their abilities are STILL present in existing classes. Evasion is still a part of the Rogue kit, and Rogues can still wield the Blades of Azzinoth, right? So in a way back before Legion, Rogues were the one that filled the gameplay representation of a Demon Hunter. It had nothing to do with lore or classes though.

Which is why Demon Hunters got Metamorphosis from Warlocks?

Abilities are the connection to the lore character or class in question. If the abilities aren't present, then we're not talking about the same thing.

[Ielenia]

Yeah, I respectfully disagree. Given what they're talking about in that blip, it's pretty clear that they're talking about engineers in general, not a Shaman who moonlights as an engineer on the weekends.

There is no "agree to disagree", because you're simply plain wrong. This "engineer hobby" thing you talk about, not only hasn't been proven at all, but it's also meaningless in the grand scheme of things because it's proven-- by your own rules-- that all races can be tinkers, because all races can be engineers and build wondrous, high-end technological devices. Even the tauren.

[Teriz]

There is no "agree to disagree", because you're simply plain wrong. This "engineer hobby" thing you talk about, not only hasn't been proven at all, but it's also meaningless in the grand scheme of things because it's proven-- by your own rules-- that all races can be tinkers, because all races can be engineers and build wondrous, high-end technological devices. Even the tauren.

The only thing meaningless is the tossing around of the term “engineer” as if it means the same thing regardless of context. Obviously a Warrior that picks up engineering as a way to make extra money, or to make some gadgets for some laughs isn’t the same as Blackfuse, Mekkatorque, or Gazlowe, and not the same as the Tinker hero. In the case of the Tinker hero, the abilities alone prove it.

[Triceron]

Where's the mech I can pilot and punch monsters in the face like Gazlowe and Mekkatorque?

Where is Gazlowe's mech in WoW?

Mekkatorque is a master engineer, so of course he would have a mech suit that is unique to him and no other gnome. What other Gnome has been shown using Mekkatorque's suit?

You're firing mystical arrows and playing as a Night Elf. How is that not like Tyrande? Also just because Sentinel is absent in the Hunter class now doesn't mean it won't ever return.

Because none of this would be sufficient in lore.

If we're just talking about abstracting gameplay, then yeah, firing mystical arrows is about as solid as throwing bombs with Engineering and calling yourself a Tinker. Where are the healing abilities or the Starfall ability? Same place as where your ridable combat mech are.

Which is a balance restriction. Piloting a mech or even having Tinker abilities aren't outlandish abilities like the ones you mentioned.

I never said it was outlandish, I answered your question of where it was and why only Mekkatorque is using it. You're right, Tinkers abilties aren't outlandish, because clearly non-hero Engineer NPCs are using them.

But the mech suits thus far have been used very sparingly in lore, and all by Engineers. The exception might be Gallywix only because he stole his suit from an Engineer and/or was being piloted by a body double.

Which is why Demon Hunters got Metamorphosis from Warlocks?

Abilities are the connection to the lore character or class in question. If the abilities aren't present, then we're not talking about the same thing.

But Warlocks aren't Demon Hunters just because they had Metamorphosis. They never are, never were.

Tinkers, on the other hand, are Engineers in the lore. Lore hasn't actually made any distinction between the two, much like how lore doesn't differentiate between Fighters and Warriors or Thieves and Rogues. So far, the lore treats these as different names for the same class.

[arkanon]

Obviously a Warrior that picks up engineering as a way to make extra money, or to make some gadgets for some laughs isn’t the same as Blackfuse, Mekkatorque, or Gazlowe, and not the same as the Tinker hero.

Yes, and being a warrior isnt the same as being Garrosh Hellscream. And being a warlock doesnt make you Gul'dan.

[Edward Wu]

They should just add a giant robot you can pilot in combat as an Engineer schematic and call it a day.

Tinkers are a meme not worthy of being an actual World of Warcraft class. They made the same mistake with Pandas, listened to a very loud and vocal minority and added a race most people hate, and MoP playerbase tanked 14% in the first quarter after release, absolutely unprecedented back then.

If there's one way to add a Tinker class, it should be done in Hearthstone as that's more appropriate for its whimsical half-hearted nature.

[Ielenia]

The only thing meaningless is the tossing around of the term “engineer” as if it means the same thing regardless of context.

Just like you like to use the word 'warrior' regardless of context? On top of that, you're now saying that there are "different contexts" for the employment of the word 'engineer', yet fail to show and explain what is this 'context'.

Obviously a Warrior that picks up engineering as a way to make extra money, or to make some gadgets for some laughs isn’t the same as Blackfuse, Mekkatorque, or Gazlowe, and not the same as the Tinker hero. In the case of the Tinker hero, the abilities alone prove it.

Ok, how do you know that a Warrior that picks up engineering:
• Does it only for 'extra money'?
• Or 'for laughs'?
• Can't be as smart as Helix or Gelbin?

And on top of that, your own rules completely tank your "only gnomes and goblins can be tinkers" because you hold this belief that "gameplay = lore" and gameplay allows all playable races to:
• Become engineers;
• Pilot combat tanks;
• Pilot combat mechs.

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But the mech suits thus far have been used very sparingly in lore, and all by Engineers. The exception might be Gallywix only because he stole his suit from an Engineer and/or was being piloted by a body double.

Actually, just to make it clear, Gallywix commissioned his mech.

[Musta]

Its not tinket class, its the waste development time to add a new class that we dont need. 12 is enough, 36 spec even more. Stop obcessing about a new class. They can barely do anything good with 12

[Elestia]

Could have just named him High Engineer...named all the other Tinker based characters Engineers, but they didn't...sorry you have so much irrational hate for a class others want but facts are facts.

There are also plenty of other examples of mech riding characters.

Please list them where they are in fact identified as a 'Tinker'.

Also, disagreeing because I want lore driven decisions to get made and not a circus does not equal hate. I am as dubious as can be of Tinkerer as a prospective class on par with the current roster of classes.

Facts certainly are facts - at this point I have not seen anything that's been convincing to where hands, down without a doubt, they should become a playable class. There are a lot of reasons to flat veto a new class, let alone THIS class. For lore reasons, gameplay reasons, future relevance reasons, relevance reasons, identity reasons/faction disparity, current game state reasons, etc.


You're honestly going to have to do better than project your personal feelings of me onto your argument.


Tinker whether by title or by worker's union affiliation is a pretty damn weak foundation (where in fact they are all listed as engineers) to base an entire multifaction, potentially multi racial class on par (convincingly on par) with existing classes.

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And the gameplay is how we interact with the lore of the game, and the game is considered canon lore by Blizzard.

Saying that "your logic" is true lore, and what we're experiencing in the game doesn't count is the hallmark of head canon.

Like I said, please produce some official lore from Blizzard that counters what we're experiencing in the game, then you'll have an argument. Until then, you don't.




No, that's actually a gameplay convention because players have to have enemies that provide a challenge in new content. For example, a random elite in BFA isn't more powerful than Black Temple Illidan in Lore, even though via game mechanics, the 120 elite would kill him pretty quickly.



None of those are hero characters.



Again, this is semantics, and it's getting tiring. A Tinker is a type of engineer, this is true. However EVERY engineer is not a Tinker. So your statement here is categorically false. Obviously an engineer with the engineering profession can't create a mech. It can build a mech from schematics and instructions, but it cannot create one like Blackfuse did with the Iron Reaver, or Mekkatorque did with his mech. Once again, the game shows us a clear difference in ability, and you're purposely choosing to ignore it.



Is Gazlowe an adventurer? Yes or no.



But why would engineering bombs need longer cool downs? Wildfire Bomb within the Hunter class has 2 charges and only an 18 second cool down that can be reduced when they use Carve. Why do Hunters have better bombs than an engineer, especially if your argument is that they're the "same" as a Tinker.



Neither does the HotS hero. However, since its his mech, and he's piloting it, its still an ability that he's using.




Unless there's lore to contradict it, yes.




Again, the minute where you start putting your own spin on something in the game because it's not spelled out for you, you're doing head canon. So yes, the minute you start saying that your character sleeps, or eats, or whatever, you are performing head canon.

You still never answered my question.

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I did. My opinion has evolved over time.

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Nope. Blizzard expanded them to Gnomes in WoW.



No, the Tinker's union is a organization of Tinkers that build machines and weaponry. It's pretty obvious that the Goblin Tinker would have been part of the Goblin's Tinker union.

And yeah, every class can pick up the engineering profession. It won't make them into a Tinker. Just like picking up the enchanter profession won't make you into a Mage.

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Yeah, false. None of the WC3 Tinker hero's abilities exist in the profession. Neither does the Alchemist's. The professions come from the item shop system in WC3. They have nothing to do with the hero units or their abilities which went ENTIRELY went into the class lineup.

FYI: Every WC3 hero has had their abilities either in name or function appear in the class lineup of WoW EXCEPT the Tinker and Alchemist. This being the case, it stands to reason that at some point, the Tinker and Alchemist's abilities will end up in the class lineup as well.

/Applause for the cherry picked wall of text taking the entire thread's commentary out of context, that noone will read or should want to read.

[Triceron]

High Tinker Mekkatorque says hello, same with Master Tinker Trini, the Mechagon Tinkerers, and many more.

The problem is that these are all titles. In WoW, they're all synonymous with Engineers. It's a title for a type of Engineer, that's about it.

If Blizzard wants to create a class out of it, they sure can, and they could redefine it to give some more meaning. But honestly if we're gonna bring up 'High Tinker' as a case scenario, then that's really just a title given to the 'King of Gnomes'. Any distinction beyond a relation to Engineering simply doesn't exist in WoW.

What do High Tinker Mekkatorque, Master Tinker Trini and Mechagon Tinkerers do that separates them apart? They're all collectively 'Engineers' by means of them using technology.

Tinker lore doesn't formally exist in WoW enough to give it much of a distinction. Like I said above, it's like how the word 'Fighter' or 'Thief' would be associated with existing classes; there's no distinction beyond that.