"Does it matter to you casuals if we hardcores get fluid covenants?" Yes, here's why.

[Popokolara]

Corona has made lockdowns popular I guess.

HAHA loved that

[Rayzen17]

Corona has made lockdowns popular I guess.

Yeah.. locking conduits down for a week as well for absolutely no good reason.
Bbbut the raiding ret pally could switch the one potency conduit for ST to AOE and now he has good damage in mythic+, oh noes the game is broken now.

[Rayzen17]

Honestly I am not that concerned about conduits. We have three soulbinds each of which has six different paths so you can craft 18 different conduit configurations to use per week. What the ever changing avatar and name dude from before said actually applies there; there will be an interesting challenge in creating a least optimal soulbind loadout every week (taking into account the current raid/bosses you are progressing as well as M+ affixes) with some room for mistakes.

It's an arbitrary lock for no good reason. Also the conduits don't switch with your spec and the paths available are not even side-grades, almost always downgrades when not taking potency conduits.
I mean if you are dps(at least), you 99% of the time have to take the path with the Potency conduits. Deviating when Potency conduits aren't involved does almost nothing. And you can only change your potency conduits once per week.

The soulbinds themselves aren't all dps oriented by the abilities they themselves give, switching from the top soulbind is already putting a minus to your dps.

So what does it mean if i wanted to take aoe conduits versus ST ones? Do i have 1 week where i take ST ones for raiding? Even though i raid every week?
Do i take AOE conduits for M+ next week? No, because i raid. This literally means that i'll never change from ST conduits, because i'd be harming my raid performance.
As such, what is even the point of a 1 week lockdown? It might as well be permanent at this point.

P.S. I don't really care at this point, Blizzard is so bad at balancing that the AOE conduits will probably be higher than some of the ST ones.

[KrayZ33]

Heck there are far more RPG elements that they have cut and could immediately restore if they so choose. Casters using no reagents, bows that use no arrows, pets that never eat

I'm suprised you actually understood what he was saying, because I don't.
My english is certainly not perfect but I'm absolutely not seeing the context or his train of thought.

Anyway. So RPG features have been in at some point, and then have been removed. That was supposedly fine because...?
And now they reintroduce this stuff and that's not fine because...?

If you go by "no one liked it, otherwise they wouldn't have removed them", you might just as well go with "people like it, otherwise they wouldn't reintroduce this stuff". Unpruning is another part of this btw.

At the same time, complaining that the game doesn't have RPG elements but at the same time, agonize any decision that introduces them is counter productive too. That's me speaking about this in general, and not saying you do/did so specifically.
So since I want RPG elements back into the void that is WoW, I'll gladly support these decisions and as I mentioned earlier, I need them locked because otherwise it wouldn't feel right to me - otherwise they might as well not exist at all and should be removed from the story entirely.

[Rayzen17]

I'm suprised you actually understood what he was saying, because I don't.
My english is certainly not perfect but I'm absolutely not seeing the context or his train of thought.

Anyway. So RPG features have been in at some point, and then have been removed. That was supposedly fine because...?
And now they reintroduce this stuff and that's not fine because...?

If you go by "no one liked it, otherwise they wouldn't have removed them", you might just as well go with "people like it, otherwise they wouldn't reintroduce this stuff". Unpruning is another part of this btw.

At the same time, complaining that the game doesn't have RPG elements but at the same time, agonize any decision that introduces them is counter productive too. That's me speaking about this in general, and not saying you do/did so specifically.
So since I want RPG elements back into the void that is WoW, I'll gladly support these decisions and as I mentioned earlier, I need them locked because otherwise it wouldn't feel right to me - they might as well not exist at all and should be removed from the story entirely.

Because those rpg elements weren't affecting player power. Me having Symbol of Kings to cast Kings on the whole raid is not something that affects player power.
You had them in your bag.. stacks of 200 if i remember right at one point, that's it.
Switching covenants does affect player power. If there were Symbols of Anima available that you could have in your bag to switch, that would be another story.

[skynet1990]

The Problem is that a fair chunk of players do not want those RPG Elements, those uniqueness. Someone once said "If you give players the chance, they'll optimize the fun out of the game" - thats what happened in BFA. Those "Elitist" People want an easy choice of covenants and conduits etc etc so they can optimize every bit of their character for every given situation. Personally I find the weekly lockdown of the conduits a good thing because it will prevent the majority to excluding people for choosing the "wrong e.g not most optimised" Covenant or Soulbind.

[Rayzen17]

The Problem is that a fair chunk of players do not want those RPG Elements, those uniqueness. Someone once said "If you give players the chance, they'll optimize the fun out of the game" - thats what happened in BFA. Those "Elitist" People want an easy choice of covenants and conduits etc etc so they can optimize every bit of their character for every given situation. Personally I find the weekly lockdown of the conduits a good thing because it will prevent the majority to excluding people for choosing the "wrong e.g not most optimised" Covenant or Soulbind.

Idk why you're fretting over someone else changing stuff up.
And there will be bad conduits too, if you go by this "excluding" theory of yours, then you'll be excluded for choosing the bad ones. gl then.

[KrayZ33]

Because those rpg elements weren't affecting player power. Me having Symbol of Kings to cast Kings on the whole raid is not something that affects player power.
You had them in your bag.. stacks of 200 if i remember right at one point, that's it.
Switching covenants does affect player power. If there were Symbols of Anima available that you could have in your bag to switch, that would be another story.

It's just an extension to the class you choose imho, but I've heard and read comments about people who will disagree.

i.e. overall, MM-Hunter is bad at multi target. Unholy is bad at single target.
I made a choice back then and I can make the same choice now.

[Packmule]

Convenants suck, its fine tho!

[Echocho]

The overall best covenant will be picked 100% of the time. Oh look, no choice.

Okay, then pick that one since it's clearly the one you want.

[Rayzen17]

Okay, then pick that one since it's clearly the one you want.

Nope.. i want different covenants for different game content, since i'm active in multiple areas of the game.. raiding, m+, arenas, battlegrounds, dailies and old raid farms for mogs and achievs.
So i want to pick what i think are the best covenants for each of them in part.
Thank you.

[Rayzen17]

It's just an extension to the class you choose imho, but I've heard and read comments about people who will disagree.

i.e. overall, MM-Hunter is bad at multi target. Unholy is bad at single target.
I made a choice back then and I can make the same choice now.

You can change specs freely, and specs are more important than covenants will ever be.

[KrayZ33]

Cool, unholy is bad at single target so I can always switch to frost. Because when you tie a character that a player might actually spend YEARS in game with, you give them flexibility.

Another point that depends on how much you are willing to go towards that direction.
In my opinion, it would have certainly be better to just play with one Legion Artifact instead of every single one of them. And Legion Artifacts are SLs Covenants.

[vitor210]

Versions of the covenant debate always seem to come down to this point: "Since you're so casual, what does it matter if we who play for keeps push for the ability to swap covenants? Stay out of the discussion if you don't do X high end content!"

Staying out of the discussion is entirely the point of why players like me care. An approachable on-ramp to later game ambition is at the core of why covenants are being presented as intentionally diverse and simultaneously rigid. The entire intent to let new blood try M+ or raiding difficulties beyond LFR (which, once again are more optional than ever and we literally and intentionally have nothing to threaten each other with in regards to content access so long as the main thoroughfare of queuable difficulties include every raid and dungeon), giving people the option, whether it be with the intended established community or the odd available (but less intended) PUG is at the core of why covenants are being presented this way.

"Don't be new on other people's time" is a motto that has grown into WoW as time efficiency rears its ugly head as a key metric in using pick up groups to run PVE team content such as M+ and raids above LFR. The more gears and wheels that will freely rotate into a position that could be optimal or less optimal, the harder "being new" is, and in a situation where WoW does its best to protect us from the worst of each other in as much content as possible (which arguably won't and can't include premade team content, but they're allowed to try), the less approachable that later game content is. This is an important factor.

"But people can just look it up the right configuration," you might say. News flash: that's an answer ignorant to the fact that not everyone will do that, will want to do that, or will think that should be necessary in a game of this caliber. "Well then they aren't entitled to membership in my group and I am free to decline them," you might say... and you wouldn't be wrong, but rigid covenants are exactly the kind of front that WoW can potentially address, on their game's level, the whole "why am I being declined" issue.

I've said before that they will never fully address such a community issue as FOTM and meta, but this might be one of the ways they can actually do that: by cutting down on easily changeable variables and, in a world where the great vault is ticking and you have X number of M+ runs that your OCD is wrongly forcing you to do (another thing that isn't Blizzard's responsibility to work around), making it harder to actually form the perfect group might, in theory, have you take that less meta-class newer player of the "right" covenant into your group just to get it done and over with.

At the end of the day, no, these headaches won't be mine, so long as I can see all the content and achieve my cosmetic goals in queueable or soloable content, I will continue to do what I've done for two expansions now: pretend M+ doesn't exist. The thing is... there is a part of me that might want to give M+ a try some day, and if that moment comes, I will appreciate if the approachability of "no one sane will be asking you to switch covenants" is built into the social compact of the game for reasonable, worthwhile players.

So yes, if you get what you want up there at the high end, the damage trickles down. It matters. There is another viable perspective, people are allowed (intended) to pick their covenant for concept and flavor, and it's blizzard's job to make each covenant "not wrong" for 99.9% of the players doing the vast majority of the content, and we have no reason yet to believe they haven't done that. Keep giving your feedback, and I will keep validating that people seeing covenants as an opportunity for character expression are not wrong.

Thank you for reading!

lmao once again, "hardcore" raiders, or better yet, just a bunch of sweaties, that pay the same sub as me, think their time is better used than mine as a casual, and that only their voice should be heard? LMAAAO

I can say the same as you! I play the game for the immersion and the RPG aspect of it, so being able to NOT freely change covenants makes sense lorewise and is the way I like it. Does this mean I should demand blizzard to follow what I want? Of course not, I wish it did but I don't play this game alone and blizzard does what needs to be done to appeal to everyone

[Lolites]

Don't want to switch.. then don't?

thats as stupid as saying "you dont want to be locked to covenant? then dont choose any"

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Your logic is equal to zero. Complete nonsense, if i am restricted to 1 covenant, then there is no choice.

actualy, quite the oposite, if you can switch it freely you make no choice...

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The overall best covenant will be picked 100% of the time. Oh look, no choice.

maybe by tryhards and people who think they can catch up their complete lack of skil by choosing the covenant thats 1% better

[Flantini]

lmao once again, "hardcore" raiders, or better yet, just a bunch of sweaties, that pay the same sub as me, think their time is better used than mine as a casual, and that only their voice should be heard? LMAAAO

I can say the same as you! I play the game for the immersion and the RPG aspect of it, so being able to NOT freely change covenants makes sense lorewise and is the way I like it. Does this mean I should demand blizzard to follow what I want? Of course not, I wish it did but I don't play this game alone and blizzard does what needs to be done to appeal to everyone

Solution: Lock covenants to RP servers (where the rpg aspect people should be anyway) and let the rest of the servers switch freely in a rested zone?

[Lolites]

Idk why you're fretting over someone else changing stuff up.

its been explained to you hundred times over in this and different threads, you cant choose to ignore what people say and then claim it was not explained or it doesnt make sense... you just either dont understand it or choose not to understand it...

[Lolites]

Cool, unholy is bad at single target so I can always switch to frost. Because when you tie a character that a player might actually spend YEARS in game with, you give them flexibility.

comparing whole spec with single ability... bcs thats not stupid at all...

[Rayzen17]

thats as stupid as saying "you dont want to be locked to covenant? then dont choose any"

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actualy, quite the oposite, if you can switch it freely you make no choice...

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maybe by tryhards and people who think they can catch up their complete lack of skil by choosing the covenant thats 1% better

Your logic is upside down.
If i don't want to be locked to 1 covenant means i want to chose through the 4 available at any time. Not that i want to have to pick 0.
I am picking every time i switch content. Oh look.. more choices than 1!

I know it's hard for you to understand, but to make it easier for you... there are 4 covenant choices, the options are:
1. Pick only 1 and can't change back for 2 weeks.
2. Pick any of the 4 at any time.

Which has more freedom tied to it? Oh that's right.. the one that allows you to freely switch.
If you want to pick just 1 and stick with it, then do so. You can do that even if option 2 is available.

You insulting people by calling them "tryhards" is such a pitiful thing, you're practically insulting players who try their best to succeed.
It's a virtue not something bad, but with your twisted logic i guess it can come up like that.

Also the 1% better thing is such a bad example, if you think the issue is that there would be 1% difference between covenants then you're really far from reality.

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its been explained to you hundred times over in this and different threads, you cant choose to ignore what people say and then claim it was not explained or it doesnt make sense... you just either dont understand it or choose not to understand it...

Your "explanation" bottom lines to: I will be asked to switch and i don't want to say no, it's hard for me to say no. I'd rather daddy Blizzard answer for me.
That's not an explanation, that's an excuse.

[razorpax]

Because the way you have fun stops development? You are limiting design decisions as small as this covenant stuff in fear of unequal performance in every single situation - which isn't given in any form anyway because classes still perform differently - in every single situation.

No the freedom to swap doesn’t hinder development in any way

If that was the case we wouldn’t have the current talent system

Can ppl stop acting like this is something that hasn’t existed since day 1

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Most of this argument can be distilled down to one question Ion asked Preach during their discussion. @14:43 Is it ideal for every hunter doing a mythic raid encounter to be the same, and the only difference being who executes the rotation and mechanic better? Preach believes so, Ion doesn't.

Group A: Definitely want that. They want to do everything in their power to make their character as good as possible. They want to look at that other hunter and compete and know that skill is what defined who is better. And this is probably the camp a majority of higher end players fall in.

Group B: Want their hunter to be different. They don't want to just be a BM Hunter, they want to be a Kyrian BM Hunter. This player, ideally, accepts that their choice will benefit them on some fights and hinder them on others.


If there were clear demarcations between the groups based on content then this wouldn't be a problem. Blizz could just have a covenant swapping token drop from Mythic raids or high m+. But there are Type A players at all levels not just the top, and the social pressures of guilds and groups means that if the covenants are easily swappable then Type B players will be coerced/guilted/forced to change for their peers. This system will inherently frustrate Type A players but Blizz has seemed to decide that it's worth it.

I forgot players don’t know how to say “no” when told to swap talents

Literally just the ability not the entire covenant