Constantly switching spec/talents/trinkets is not fun?

[Justbas]

Its hilarious that you want to force your will upon others while if we can have what we want (Switching shit when we want to) it does not affect you if you are the type of person that does not care.

I like to optimize my toon's for the content i'm about to do in what way does that hinder you from playing the game the way you want to.

[Lolites]

Single? How about no?
Your covenant is not just an ability, it is also the soulbinds that are split into three. Which is way more that just one thing.

i see where is problem, you know jack shit about the system you whine about...
soulbinds are changeable... literaly like a goddamn talents + "sockets" (a.k.a. conduits)...

[Rayzen17]

Its hilarious that you want to force your will upon others while if we can have what we want (Switching shit when we want to) it does not affect you if you are the type of person that does not care.

I like to optimize my toon's for the content i'm about to do in what way does that hinder you from playing the game the way you want to.

From what i got from them it's like this:
1. They don't want to get asked to switch, because they could if covenants would be unlocked ---> They have no backbone to say no.
2. This is an RPG and we must apply RPG rules... idk man ---> Arbitrary things that they think makes an RPG, it's sad really.
3. They don't want to upkeep all covenants, if they were free to switch they'd feel "compelled" to upkeep them all ---> This is just laziness.
4. Because Blizz said it's bad to change stuff from boss to boss ---> Never mind that we could have done this since forever, pure bullshit.
5. Also because "meaningful choices" are important for them personally ---> This one is amazing since they don't have the conviction to stick with one covenant unless Blizzard forces them to, pathetic.
6. They don't want to switch stuff because it takes too long(this is coming from people who probably switched stuff 5 times this expac) --> Absolutely untrue, you never completely change your talents and essences from boss to boss, you at most change 1-2 things, it takes literally under 30 seconds.
7. Because the "elite/tryhards" are going to be negatively impacted by this and not their "casualness" --> Simply not true, everyone will be affected, i've seen players who are casual that do not like being forced to enjoy only 1 content per 2 weeks, it's an arbitrary lock in a game where you're meant to have fun, limiting that by a 2 week lockout is not acceptable.

As you can see, they are all negative, very selfish reasons that can be resolved by themselves personally. --> No palpable penalty.
As opposed to not being able to switch = actually being limited, limiting out FUN. --> Very palpable penalty.

Need i say more? I think i got everything covered. I'm saving this btw.

[Lolites]

Did you read my post? I mention it. Right now the catch-up is that you gain renown with daily quest, but the cap is weekly, similar to the cloak right now. So yes you can progress up to 7x faster to catch up, if you do the daily every day, but it still take almost 20 days to get back if you switch your covenant at 40 (point which unlock the last soulbind trait). 20 days while slowly regaining conduits and without the final point (who have a pretty big impact) seems to be "fall back by huge margin"!

seems more like thats how catchup is now, given thats literaly what was said, that you shouldnt fall back by much, i would assume the catchup will change or actualy does have some growth...

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Its hilarious that you want to force your will upon others while if we can have what we want (Switching shit when we want to) it does not affect you if you are the type of person that does not care.

ofc it will, and it was explained how, about thousand times in this thread or other similar threads... you being unable or unwiling to understand it does not change that...

[Rayzen17]

i see where is problem, you know jack shit about the system you whine about...
soulbinds are changeable... literaly like a goddamn talents + "sockets" (a.k.a. conduits)...

He means that when you pick one covenant, you actually pick 3/12 soulbinds as well. Meaning you're stuck with them as well.
It's a combo choice, this also doesn't help that Blizzard doesn't present them when choosing the Covenant, at least that's how it was in Beta last time i checked.
So unless some player goes to an external website before picking, they'll blindly pick soulbinds along with their Covenant.

[Thorcall]

seems more like thats how catchup is now, given thats literaly what was said, that you shouldnt fall back by much, i would assume the catchup will change or actualy does have some growth...

Maybe, we can hope, but right now its not the case. Those who are against restriction do not speculate over some "maybe" build in month, but against the actual problem on the beta.

[Lolites]

Maybe, we can hope, but right now its not the case. Those who are against restriction do not speculate over some "maybe" build in month, but against the actual problem on the beta.

actualy, based on forums, it seems they speculate about how some covenant abilities MIGHT BE so powerfull they will be required for some content, before the numbers tuning even started... so yes, both sides speculate about "possible issues" not about issues already there...

[Thorcall]

actualy, based on forums, it seems they speculate about how some covenant abilities MIGHT BE so powerfull they will be required for some content, before the numbers tuning even started... so yes, both sides speculate about "possible issues" not about issues already there...

The only speculation is for the % of the impact. There is no doubt if a 60s cd aoe could be worse than a pure single target burst in a single target fight. Its gonna be worse, and that the problem.

[NineSpine]

From what i got from them it's like this:
1. They don't want to get asked to switch, because they could if covenants would be unlocked ---> They have no backbone to say no.
2. This is an RPG and we must apply RPG rules... idk man ---> Arbitrary things that they think makes an RPG, it's sad really.
3. They don't want to upkeep all covenants, if they were free to switch they'd feel "compelled" to upkeep them all ---> This is just laziness.
4. Because Blizz said it's bad to change stuff from boss to boss ---> Never mind that we could have done this since forever, pure bullshit.
5. Also because "meaningful choices" are important for them personally ---> This one is amazing since they don't have the conviction to stick with one covenant unless Blizzard forces them to, pathetic.
6. They don't want to switch stuff because it takes too long(this is coming from people who probably switched stuff 5 times this expac) --> Absolutely untrue, you never completely change your talents and essences from boss to boss, you at most change 1-2 things, it takes literally under 30 seconds.
7. Because the "elite/tryhards" are going to be negatively impacted by this and not their "casualness" --> Simply not true, everyone will be affected, i've seen players who are casual that do not like being forced to enjoy only 1 content per 2 weeks, it's an arbitrary lock in a game where you're meant to have fun, limiting that by a 2 week lockout is not acceptable.

As you can see, they are all negative, very selfish reasons that can be resolved by themselves personally. --> No palpable penalty.
As opposed to not being able to switch = actually being limited, limiting out FUN. --> Very palpable penalty.

Need i say more? I think i got everything covered. I'm saving this btw.

We want to be meaningfully different from other players. If I choose to never change my covenant, I am not meaningfully different from another warlock that changes all the time. He can be like me whenever he wants. It's about establishing a more unique identity, and guess what? We are entitled to believe that that is fun just as much as you are entitled to think that it isn't fun.

The problem here is that the rest of the god damn game is already catered to your "change everything whenever I want" preference, and now you keep throwing childish hissy fits that someone else is getting a system they want for once. The sad part is that you've convinced yourself that "I WANT 100% OF WHAT I WANT ALL THE TIME OR EVERYONE ELSE IS BEING A SELFISH MEANIE!" is the mature stance.

[Lolites]

The only speculation is for the % of the impact.

which... is the most important thing?
if the AOE ability is less than 1% of your DPS it doesnt matter if you have it for AOE fights...

[Rayzen17]

We want to be meaningfully different from other players. If I choose to never change my covenant, I am not meaningfully different from another warlock that changes all the time. He can be like me whenever he wants. It's about establishing a more unique identity, and guess what? We are entitled to believe that that is fun just as much as you are entitled to think that it isn't fun.

The problem here is that the rest of the god damn game is already catered to your "change everything whenever I want" preference, and now you keep throwing childish hissy fits that someone else is getting a system they want for once. The sad part is that you've convinced yourself that "I WANT 100% OF WHAT I WANT ALL THE TIME OR EVERYONE ELSE IS BEING A SELFISH MEANIE!" is the mature stance.

Hush child, adults are speaking here.
Now regarding your "points", there are none.
1. You will be different from who exactly? Let's say there are 1.000 warlocks on your server.
If the Covenants are balanced (which they won't be) and different players all like different covenants in equal proportion(which definitely won't be the case) then we can presume(falsely presume) a spread of:
a) 250 Venthyr Warlocks
b) 250 Kyrian Warlocks
c) 250 Night Fae Warlocks
d) 250 Necrolord Warlocks
How exactly are you any different from any of the 250 ones? How??

Let's go the other way, covenants are unlocked, let's say the spread is this way due to meta stuff
a) 150 Venthyr Warlocks
b) 350 Kyrian Warlocks
c) 50 Night Fae Warlocks
d) 450 Necrolord Warlocks
So in this situation, you can see clearly that Night Fae Warlocks are the most unique, Venthyr second best, since there are 4 covenants, you basically are more unique with 2 of the 4 covenants then the other situation where they are spread equally

Now, let's head for the other type of spreading. Covenants are locked but there is a meta for raiding, M+ and arenas, since people can't change freely, they will want to not gimp themselves.
a) 100 Venthyr Warlocks
b) 300 Kyrian Warlocks
c) 50 Night Fae Warlocks
d) 550 Necrolord Warlocks
Hey look the lockdown of the covenants only caused the spread to become even more exacerbated.

Now exactly where do you see this uniqueness? I see hundreds of the same type, because there are only 4 options to chose from.
Well look there, you are not unique even with the lockdown.

[Swampmoose]

As opposed to some GM telling you to chose Venthyr for your class/spec or benching you? You(generally speaking ofc) choosing a bad covenant from the get-go won't be much of an excuse, you'll just have to grind the covenant or the bench.
And if it's about pugging, then they simply won't invite combos which aren't meta.. that's all.

So by "choosing freely" you actually just gimp yourself from grouping.
I personally don't have that fear with my guild and i deal well with pugs due to high rio and stuff.

I just want to be able to switch covenant abilities based on content... best dmg for raids.. faster movement for dailies + running old content, stuff like that.
A lockdown (2 week grind to rejoin) like this prevents me from choosing like that,. which will diminish my fun, and i'm sure i'm not the only one who likes to setup his stuff like that.

I don't know what you mean by "as opposed to." You're basically echoing everything I said lol. Those are the types of forced choices I'm talking about. If there is a bad covenant, for starters, that's a pretty big failure with the covenant system, but it also means you're forced into choosing a certain one regardless of which one you may like more. This will still be true either way because 1 will always be better by some degree. It's just the nature of the game. You choose the best one or you gimp yourself and risk raid spots or whatever it may be. I'm fine with that. Have to just decide what's most important to you. Your covenant choice or your raid spot. Having to do talents and trinkets every single fight though is just a hassle, which I think OP was talking more about, and not like bigger decisions like a covenant. But yes, they fall in the same ballpark.

[Justbas]

ofc it will, and it was explained how, about thousand times in this thread or other similar threads... you being unable or unwiling to understand it does not change that...

Yeaah dunno about that chief.

Sounds to me you just don't want to deal with people telling you how to play your game and as such are forcing others to literally play the game the way you want to play your game.

It's fucking idiotic

Grow a spine and just tell the group you're about to apply to to accept you for the special little snowflake that you are with or without bis talents.
Cause you are indeed.. very.. special..

[Rayzen17]

I don't know what you mean by "as opposed to." You're basically echoing everything I said lol. Those are the types of forced choices I'm talking about. If there is a bad covenant, for starters, that's a pretty big failure with the covenant system, but it also means you're forced into choosing a certain one regardless of which one you may like more. This will still be true either way because 1 will always be better by some degree. It's just the nature of the game. You choose the best one or you gimp yourself and risk raid spots or whatever it may be. I'm fine with that. Have to just decide what's most important to you. Your covenant choice or your raid spot. Having to do talents and trinkets every single fight though is just a hassle, which I think OP was talking more about, and not like bigger decisions like a covenant. But yes, they fall in the same ballpark.

It means that even if the covenants are locked, and you chose X.. if your raid leader wants you to use Y, you're in the same situation as before, except now you're gonna have to grind for 2 weeks to switch.
Same thing with pugs, if you chose the bad one, you will have issues getting into groups and you'll have to take up a 2 week grind to fix your bad decision.

And i don't trust Blizzard enough to balance the covenants so that there are no bad ones....

[NineSpine]

Hush child, adults are speaking here.
Now regarding your "points", there are none.
1. You will be different from who exactly? Let's say there are 1.000 warlocks on your server.
If the Covenants are balanced (which they won't be) and different players all like different covenants in equal proportion(which definitely won't be the case) then we can presume(falsely presume) a spread of:
a) 250 Venthyr Warlocks
b) 250 Kyrian Warlocks
c) 250 Night Fae Warlocks
d) 250 Necrolord Warlocks
How exactly are you any different from any of the 250 ones? How??

Let's go the other way, covenants are unlocked, let's say the spread is this way due to meta stuff
a) 150 Venthyr Warlocks
b) 350 Kyrian Warlocks
c) 50 Night Fae Warlocks
d) 450 Necrolord Warlocks
So in this situation, you can see clearly that Night Fae Warlocks are the most unique, Venthyr second best, since there are 4 covenants, you basically are more unique with 2 of the 4 covenants then the other situation where they are spread equally

Now, let's head for the other type of spreading. Covenants are locked but there is a meta for raiding, M+ and arenas, since people can't change freely, they will want to not gimp themselves.
a) 100 Venthyr Warlocks
b) 300 Kyrian Warlocks
c) 50 Night Fae Warlocks
d) 550 Necrolord Warlocks
Hey look the lockdown of the covenants only caused the spread to become even more exacerbated.

Now exactly where do you see this uniqueness? I see hundreds of the same type, because there are only 4 options to chose from.
Well look there, you are not unique even with the lockdown.

Notice how I said "a MORE unique identity", not "I will be absolutely unique and different from every other person". Is all you have strawmen and "I WANT IT ALL ALL THE TIME THE GAME IS ABOUT ME ME ME ME ME!!!!?

You already have your way in 90% of the other systems in the game. It's going to be ok if players other than you have fun for fifteen minutes, Jesus.

[Rayzen17]

Notice how I said "a MORE unique identity", not "I will be absolutely unique and different from every other person". Is all you have strawmen and "I WANT IT ALL ALL THE TIME THE GAME IS ABOUT ME ME ME ME ME!!!!?

You already have your way in 90% of the other systems in the game. It's going to be ok if players other than you have fun for fifteen minutes, Jesus.

But you would have a more unique identity if the covenants are unlocked, just ask people what covenant they chose, then you go and grind out for 2 weeks based on the lowest amount... ta daaa now you're the most unique snowflake that you can be.
Or you can do the same with unlocked covenants too, except you don't have to take up a 2 week grind.

You gain zero benefits from having them locked.
So stop being selfish man.. you can have them unlocked and you just lock yourself and be a special snowflake, if you ask people, they'll tell you what they're playing, you can quickly change to counter them when in a group! See? It even works better for your unique desire to be.. unique.

[NineSpine]

But you would have a more unique identity if the covenants are unlocked, just ask people what covenant they chose, then you go and grind out for 2 weeks based on the lowest amount... ta daaa now you're the most unique snowflake that you can be.
Or you can do the same with unlocked covenants too, except you don't have to take up a 2 week grind.

You gain zero benefits from having them locked.
So stop being selfish man.. you can have them unlocked and you just lock yourself and be a special snowflake, if you ask people, they'll tell you what they're playing, you can quickly change to counter them when in a group! See? It even works better for your unique desire to be.. unique.

I already explained that my interest is in being meaningfully, substantively different from other warlocks in the long term, not in being limited by comparison to them. The fact that you refuse to engage with this point, and instead repeatedly beat this strawman of "I dont want to play them all" is getting really tired and shows that you don't really have a coherent argument here.

Again, I'm not telling you that you have to like the system. You can hate it, just like I hate how easy it is to switch spec and talents. The problem here is that you want to believe that your personal, subjective OPINION is some hard fact about reality. It isn't. It's just what you'd prefer the game be like. That's fine, but this obsession you have with demanding that every single aspect of the game be EXACTLY like you want or else everyone else is being selfish and you need to PROVE factually how wrong they are is a sign of incredible immaturity.

[Rayzen17]

I already explained that my interest is in being meaningfully, substantively different from other warlocks in the long term, not in being limited by comparison to them. The fact that you refuse to engage with this point, and instead repeatedly beat this strawman of "I dont want to play them all" is getting really tired and shows that you don't really have a coherent argument here.

Again, I'm not telling you that you have to like the system. You can hate it, just like I hate how easy it is to switch spec and talents. The problem here is that you want to believe that your personal, subjective OPINION is some hard fact about reality. It isn't. It's just what you'd prefer the game be like. That's fine, but this obsession you have with demanding that every single aspect of the game be EXACTLY like you want or else everyone else is being selfish and you need to PROVE factually how wrong they are is a sign of incredible immaturity.

But you can stay how much you want as a Venthyr.
Player X, Y and Z may chose the same covenant or different covenants than you, therefore raising your uniqueness or lowering it.
In the end it doesn't make you unique in any meaningful way, long term or short term, you don't know how often the others change covenants or what covenants they switch to.

What is the exact meaning if you stay as Covenant X long term but everybody else switches or not? What's your relation to them?
How does Jimmy here switching between Night Fae and Necrolords going to hurt your Venthyr long term retirement plan?
It doesn't, does it?

Also your attacks on me have no effect. This isn't me dictating how others are locked. This is you guys dictating to me how to play the game.
Covenants being unlocked doesn't change how you play the game, unless you actually use the feature.

[Echocho]

But you would have a more unique identity if the covenants are unlocked, just ask people what covenant they chose, then you go and grind out for 2 weeks based on the lowest amount... ta daaa now you're the most unique snowflake that you can be.
Or you can do the same with unlocked covenants too, except you don't have to take up a 2 week grind.

You gain zero benefits from having them locked.
So stop being selfish man.. you can have them unlocked and you just lock yourself and be a special snowflake, if you ask people, they'll tell you what they're playing, you can quickly change to counter them when in a group! See? It even works better for your unique desire to be.. unique.

You're going to be really upset when they implement subclasses in the next expansion as a natural evolution of the covenant system. Those of us who actually like RPGs on the other hand will be delighted.

[Tortuga234]

i see where is problem, you know jack shit about the system you whine about...
soulbinds are changeable... literaly like a goddamn talents + "sockets" (a.k.a. conduits)...

Oh, so I can change from Niya to Plague Deviser Marileth then for one boss and then back for another?
You are really special, ain't you.