M+ affixes. Healers job?

[AwkwardSquirtle]

Better incentives to avoid taking damage from the rest of the group. It's not that hard to figure out that people put less emphasis on avoiding things that can be healed through if it allows them to do more damage, but if it is negative to their damage output you can bet your sweet behind on that they'll avoid them like the plague. Obviously this doesn't happen in good groups, but the vast majority of M+ groups (even premade groups) are unfortunately not good groups.

Right, but that punishes healers because the pack lasts longer and drains more mana so they have to drink more.

[Rageonit]

I think some people miss the point of OP.
Its not that healer has to do more than DPS players. Its that if DPS players tend to be braindead the affixes dont punish them because there is healer to heal them. They are NOT punished by affixes because of healers.
While healer cant afford to fuck around relying on DPS doing proper CC and movements.
Affixes supposed to punish all roles but in practice all they result into punishing the healer, not tank or DPS. This sucks.
Id want some affixes to make DPS unable to DPS or lower their DPS for x% or significantly damage their armor so they feel bad not doing their job properly.

It punishes everyone, because if you take too much damage, you will die and you won't be able to hit the timer.

[DisposableHero]

I think the whole point is that, any mistake by the team, and any level of play has mistakes, punishes the healer aswell. That's just how the game works though. Healing lower m+ is often way harder due to the amount of mistakes.

Healing the team is the essence of the healing role. If you think having more things to heal is "punishment" you should abandon the healing role, it isn't for you. Mistakes by any player including the healer often increase damage taken, overwhelming the abilities of the healer and wiping punishes the whole the group. Good healers have the ability to correct a pretty wide range of mistakes by DPS and tanks in handling M+ affixes, and again, if you view that ability as a punishment rather than the agency to ensure the success of the run in spite of other players mistakes, play a different role.

[Jazzhands]

Personally I feel it makes being a healer more fun, because I can actually make use of my cooldowns and skills. Whereas when nobody is failing, I mostly FS/LvB/LB (shaman here) to do laughable DPS. Not sure if it's more fun - for me it certainly isn't.
And lets face facts here: if you have a bad group of players who think that they can ignore mechanics, "because healer can deal with it"... they will most probably ignore them too if those mechanics give damage debuffs or whatever. Result? Healer will STILL have to deal with it, and group DPS will be smaller. I know it's cliche, but don't play with baddies. Any good player know how to deal with affixes (and does that).

I find it interesting that healers complain about having to DPS now, because you only DPS when you literally have nothing else to do. Would you rather just do nothing? Sitting around not doing anything sounds like pretty boring game play honestly.

People in general are a lot more likely to avoid things when they annoy them. Just taking damage is hardly something these players notice, but when they get CC'd or lose control of their character or can't put out "big dick deeps" then they might. However, this thread isn't just about bad groups. Good players make plenty of mistakes, and those mistakes still pressure the healer more than the person making the mistake and that's the issue. Blizzard already changed Volcanic to put more pressure on the person making mistakes, I say run with it and overhaul more mechanics in this manner, M+ has more mechanics in a single pull than some older raids did so mistakes are a lot more likely and thus why this is a much bigger issue for healers now.

[Arainie]

Right, but that punishes healers because the pack lasts longer and drains more mana so they have to drink more.

Aaaaaand again let me (re)iterate that the point is not to suffer the affixes but to avoid them, something which is taken very lightly when someone else can cover for your mistakes. Sheeesh.

[Rageonit]

I find it interesting that healers complain about having to DPS now, because you only DPS when you literally have nothing else to do. Would you rather just do nothing? Sitting around not doing anything sounds like pretty boring game play honestly.

I didn't complain that I have to DPS, I only said that I prefer to heal (because, surprise, surprise, I signed up to be a healer). And that's because I find healing more interesting than doing laughable DPS (if I'd want to DPS, I'd roll a DPS). Putting more pressure on DPS and less on the healer would make me heal even less, which means I would have to DPS even more. So I'd be doing less of the thing I enjoy and more of the thing I find boring. Is that more clear?

EDIT: Then again, I'm the type of healer who asks the group to pull more if I don't feel the pressure, otherwise I'd probably fall asleep.

[Sezh]

In fact, i stopped bothering to do m+ at all.
Guess I always pugged* bad groups because it always** felt like 30min+ of non-stop emergency healing. Felt too stressful to be worth any reward.
Thus my expectation that it's just how m+ supposed to be.

Pugging a +15 is more stressful than doing a +20 with a team of friends who know what they're doing. I got carried through +15s on my fresh dinged disc priest with leveling greens a few days ago. Imagine how stress free that would have been with a geared healer.

[Tavin]

In the current expansion, as a healer, most of the affixes are easier to handle if you dont heal. Just kill stuff. Doubt that it was the intended way for mythic+ to function.

At the current state the affixes gets harder if people fuck up or dont kill them fast enough.

The way i see it, it's a lot more balanced in shadowlands rather than "dont play with bad players and youll be fine"

[Jazzhands]

I didn't complain that I have to DPS, I only said that I prefer to heal (because, surprise, surprise, I signed up to be a healer). And that's because I find healing more interesting than doing laughable DPS (if I'd want to DPS, I'd roll a DPS). Putting more pressure on DPS and less on the healer would make me heal even less, which means I would have to DPS even more. So I'd be doing less of the thing I enjoy and more of the thing I find boring. Is that more clear?

EDIT: Then again, I'm the type of healer who asks the group to pull more if I don't feel the pressure, otherwise I'd probably fall asleep.

There's still plenty to heal in any actual challenging content with people executing mechanics correctly, and as you said you can always just pull more stuff in easier content.

People should be punished for their mistakes, simple as that, not doing so leads to people being even lazier and worse than they already are. It's very possible to design a fight that's both fun to heal and actually punishes DPS for their mistakes, it doesn't have to be one or the other.

[Enter Name Here]

[...]If the pack takes longer, you have to heal more.[...]

overall healing, yes.
healing per second, no.

it's about not having to ramp up healing, every single time a bad player thinks it's not neccessary to get out of the fire 'cause "stand in the fire => dps higher"

it's also not about taking all responsibilty off the healers. that would lead to replacing the healer with yet another dps.
i, personally, would increase overall incoming damage, when less affixes end up being plain damage.


after following the thread i'm beginning to think that this whole topic seems to be a low-key-only problem.
in higher keys, some mechanics will lead to instant death, i guess*. making the whole who-is-to-blame thing quite obvious.

*no personal experience, just an expectation

[Wuusah]

Right, but that punishes healers because the pack lasts longer and drains more mana so they have to drink more.

The point is “force feedback”. When an explosive orb explodes, it’s the healer who feels the feedback. Dps only feel it when they die. There could be more nuance to it. This lack of feedback the game gives to dps and tanks is oftentimes the reason why people complain about “lack of healing”. But if a dps failed and got a debuff that significantly lowered their haste, for example, then they would feel their own mistake.
In the end it will still fall back on the healer to heal the additional damage that results from these mistakes, but the “force feedback” hits where the mistake was made

[Rageonit]

People should be punished for their mistakes, simple as that

But they are, the whole group gets punished for mistakes if you don't kill the boss or fail the timer. This is a multiplayer game, you need to cooperate, if you fail the timer because you took too much damage and the healer couldn't cope, you get punished for that (and the healer, and the tank). That's basically how group content works. Meanwhile, when I read some of the comments, I get a strange feeling that people play for themselves, even though they can only get their rewards in groups. That's a bad PUG mentality.

[Better]

We could go back to Legion where most of these same affixes existed and people did no healer runs of 10-15s (Whichever was the gear cap for that patch) without much issue.

Mechanics in WoW deal damage, that's just how it is.

I'd argue Necrotic, Raging, Bolstering, Sanguine, (and to a degree explosive) are far closer to a tank affix than a healer affix.

Your list also missed probably the biggest tanking affix; Teeming.
If you've never tanked you probably never considered the fact that Teeming frequently requires a re-route of the entire dungeon, because it changes mob % so drastically.

[Nizah]

What do you mean healers gotta heal ? wtf is this bullshit.

[spleen1015]

Everyone has buttons to push, regardless of role.

[Rageonit]

The point is “force feedback”. When an explosive orb explodes, it’s the healer who feels the feedback. Dps only feel it when they die. There could be more nuance to it. This lack of feedback the game gives to dps and tanks is oftentimes the reason why people complain about “lack of healing”. But if a dps failed and got a debuff that significantly lowered their haste, for example, then they would feel their own mistake.
In the end it will still fall back on the healer to heal the additional damage that results from these mistakes, but the “force feedback” hits where the mistake was made

That's a great point. While I don't mind having to correct tank/DPS mistakes (I thrive when doing so), I think more feedback would be a welcome change (even if it was only visual, or some small, but obvious annoyance). For me, the problem is not having to heal; the problem is when a bad DPS takes way too much damage and wipes, without even knowing it was his/her fault. Which often leads to blaming the healer. You want to push my limits, that's fine - but if you go overboard, you have to know it was you.

[Jazzhands]

But they are, the whole group gets punished for mistakes if you don't kill the boss or fail the timer. This is a multiplayer game, you need to cooperate, if you fail the timer because you took too much damage and the healer couldn't cope, you get punished for that (and the healer, and the tank). That's basically how group content works. Meanwhile, when I read some of the comments, I get a strange feeling that people play for themselves, even though they can only get their rewards in groups. That's a bad PUG mentality.

You can literally make hundreds of mistakes and not fail the timer, not all mistakes result in death, wipes, or key failure. That run will just be another day in the life for DPS/Tanks but a nightmare for the healer. See the problem?

[Rageonit]

You can literally make hundreds of mistakes and not fail the timer, not all mistakes result in death, wipes, or key failure. That run will just be another day in the life for DPS/Tanks but a nightmare for the healer. See the problem?

Personally, no, I don't see the problem, because for me, that's a job well done. I understand that someone else might get stressed by having to heal more than they normally should, but I'm not sure if the role of a healer is best suited for them. There are runs that are laid back, because you have good players around, and there are runs that will require more skill and attention. But in the end, it's still doing your job. That's just being a healer, and you have to know what you sign up for. But changing the whole philosophy because of that? Sorry, but I don't see it. It creates as many problems as it's trying to fix: more emphasis on healer DPS, or even doing runs w/o the healer, because he becomes obsolete. Plus, like I said so many times: I signed up for this role to heal; there's no better feeling than saving a DPS that took unnecessary damage and went really low on health, and the unexpectedness of that is part of the fun. Yes, you can still have mechanics that require the healer to heal, but most "standard" mechanics are predictable and quickly become boring. I want to be kept on my toes. If you think that's stressful - maybe you're better of being one the DPS?

[Better]

You can literally make hundreds of mistakes and not fail the timer, not all mistakes result in death, wipes, or key failure. That run will just be another day in the life for DPS/Tanks but a nightmare for the healer. See the problem?

Without healing becoming harder for going higher, and having affixes what do you want them to do? If you're not given healing to do healers will once more eventually be phased out of non-high M+ (And even to a degree high M+) like the fear was in Legion. Would you prefer a world where you actually cannot get into a group for an 8 as a healer because 'why bring one?'

[Soluna]

There are plenty of ways to punish DPS when they fail mechanics. Largely things like CC, disruptive stuff like being knocked in the air or thrown across a room, slowing down your GCD or increasing the cooldown time of abilities, or getting mind controlled.

The entire point of this thread is that the group failing makes being a healer less fun, and with M+ that's now significantly more prominent than ever given how many more mechanics happen, and those failures more or less have no effect on the person who made them. Pugs were always pretty meh, but M+ has pushed that to the extreme even at low levels to the point where it's just not fun sometimes.

It's fine that healers are the "safety net" for groups, it's fine that people make mistakes, it's just annoying that 95% of the mistakes people make don't actually punish that person in any way, and instead it just falls to the healer. That was fine before but now with M+ and every trash pack having 6+ mechanics it's just bad.

I mean I am sorry, but at the level where it actually matters, people have to play perfectly or get one shot, which means that as a healer, you actually heal a lot less the higher the m+ scales. And at a +15 level, you should be able to heal just fine some fuck ups, if there are any. If you hate playing with a full PUG group that fucks up in a 15, play with friends. Did you know that healers can dps explosives too? I see many healers who are just healbots who never touch their dps spells, resulting in dpsers having to use a lot more globals outside nuking down the pack to deal with the orbs.

How about we talk about that? And just because m+ is so popular now, that does not mean that mechanics should start punishing in an unfun way things like cooldowns, or CC all the time. Explosive seems to be doing what you want, but yes, some affixes will be more healer oriented than not. Do you see dpsers complaining that they have to interrupt a lot more in recent years or stun, due to there being so many mechanics in trash? No, because it's their job to interrupt/etc to reduce incoming dmg, and so it's your job too to patch things up. If you don't like it, don't play healer and let healers with a proper pair do it.

And that's from someone who has healed in high level before, and I've done my fair share of m+. To want change on the affixes based on shit pug groups is just plain stupidity. Also, were you actually thinking when you suggested increased cooldowns, or CC'ed dps? That would mean that they cannot interrupt as often, due to increased cooldown on interrupts, or they'd be cc'ed and not able to actually interrupt/dps the pack. This would result in you healing more too. So unless you can come up with some proper solutions, you are plain wrong buddy.

- - - Updated - - -

You can literally make hundreds of mistakes and not fail the timer, not all mistakes result in death, wipes, or key failure. That run will just be another day in the life for DPS/Tanks but a nightmare for the healer. See the problem?

You talk about this assuming the healer is an omnipotent person who makes zero mistakes. Guess you are just another one of those healers who think they are perfect and everyone else around them sucks. Yeah, some pugs are shit, but more often than not, you could have typhooned the mobs out of sanguine, you could do a stun here, you could use a personal there, you could contribute a bit with healer dps, or break some explosives. Healers can also fail the affixes that require healing to patch up.

Also you are super oblivious if you think that dpsers/tanks cannot have a nightmare run. Imagine being a warlock and having to kill explosives unless you have instant casts. Imagine being an unholy deathknight, and stupid tanks moving mobs out of your DnD for some reason, making you do 0 dmg. Dpsers or a holy paladin being close to melee range at all times and hitting the tank with quaking shaving off massive % off his hp.

Stop acting like you are the sole victim. And if you hate it that much, play with friends, or reroll to a dps, since dpsers have it so nice. : )