Nothing has changed same awful class design

[Doffen]

BoD & EP.
CoC is barely worth mentioning considering it wasn't ecompassed by any class changes and is obviously just a raid with two bosses that were for some reason completely overtuned.

SP wasn't good in Ny'alotha, perhaps on paper but in reality all this priority target business absolutely hurt the spec.

No, i just remember the stuff past the Surrender to Madness nerf and SP wasn't good beyond that, mediocre at best.

Okay, now you're just trolling.

Warcraftlogs, real numbers disagrees with you big time. You are just objectively wrong about this. And that's the end of it.

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There is more to the lack of shadow then just raw dps... it is why if you look at mythic znoth DH are so valued. It isn't just their bonus magic damage debuff but how utterly powerful their mobility and cleave makes them in key parts of the encounter. The issue with shadow priests has always been "why take them over another lock or mage?"

Sure they got issues like burst AoE, but Shadow has been great for raiding for 4 years now. That's a fact that's hard to go away from.

[Kralljin]

Warcraftlogs, real numbers disagrees with you big time. You are just objectively wrong about this. And that's the end of it.

Then perhaps don't rely on data that has been taken during the end of a tier, but during the start when you have more guilds progressing rather than just padding meters.

[goldlock]

Warcraftlogs, real numbers disagrees with you big time. You are just objectively wrong about this. And that's the end of it.

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Sure they got issues like burst AoE, but Shadow has been great for raiding for 4 years now. That's a fact that's hard to go away from.

Great is a strong word. They have been viable but great... well emerald nightmare they were great. I wouldn't want to stack shadow priests least not in bfa the rework might push them higher but it doesn't hurt to have one or two in a raid.

[Doffen]

Then perhaps don't rely on data that has been taken during the end of a tier, but during the start when you have more guilds progressing rather than just padding meters.

The data is from the whole tier, and you can see it patch to patch as well. I played in Legion, I played in BfA. Except for Nighthold and Uldir Shadow has been a top 5-6 spec since launch of Legion while most other specs has been up and down. That's why I say Shadow has maybe been the top spec for 4 years seeing they have been so consistently good, together with warlocks. For raiding.

If anything, if you go and check, when Shadow has been falling down on the meters it has been in the time of "padding the meters" as you call it. And strong when it's been during progress. Quite opposite of what you are claiming here. Would be interesting to hear how you dodge that one, but I am not gonna discuss something that's so obvious. Shadow has had issues for sure, burst AoE is maybe the biggest one since their participation in mythic+ has been low. But for raids? Top tier spec.

Not gonna bother discuss this more, the numbers are there.

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Great is a strong word. They have been viable but great... well emerald nightmare they were great. I wouldn't want to stack shadow priests least not in bfa the rework might push them higher but it doesn't hurt to have one or two in a raid.

What I am interested in then, what spec has been great then the last 4 years?

[goldlock]

The data is from the whole tier, and you can see it patch to patch as well. I played in Legion, I played in BfA. Except for Nighthold and Uldir Shadow has been a top 5-6 spec since launch of Legion while most other specs has been up and down. That's why I say Shadow has maybe been the top spec for 4 years seeing they have been so consistently good, together with warlocks. For raiding.

If anything, if you go and check, when Shadow has been falling down on the meters it has been in the time of "padding the meters" as you call it. And strong when it's been during progress. Quite opposite of what you are claiming here. Would be interesting to hear how you dodge that one, but I am not gonna discuss something that's so obvious. Shadow has had issues for sure, burst AoE is maybe the biggest one since their participation in mythic+ has been low. But for raids? Top tier spec.

Not gonna bother discuss this more, the numbers are there.

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What I am interested in then, what spec has been great then the last 4 years?

For most its class not spec pures just have the advantage here and I am struggling to think of a tier mages and warlocks where not great in with hunters having a strong showing. Melee fall into the "their melee" trap so it depends on encounters for them. I am not saying a spriest is bad just that it doesnt stack up well against the three overall.

[Doffen]

For most its class not spec pures just have the advantage here and I am struggling to think of a tier mages and warlocks where not great in with hunters having a strong showing. Melee fall into the "their melee" trap so it depends on encounters for them. I am not saying a spriest is bad just that it doesnt stack up well against the three overall.

You should go and check logs then and see. Warlocks has been the best class overall the last 4 years indeed, but changed a bit with specs. I am talking about specs, not class.

Mages overall has actually been pretty average since Legion launch. Hunters too, they have been average and good at times, but none of them has been really great for a long time. I think what you got in mind is the latest tier and then think that's been the norm. It really has not been like that. Hunters being a top 3 class? Sure BM is great now, and good at times in earlier raids, but top 3? Not at all. Spec-wise none of these except affliction has been consistently good as shadow has been for raiding. There are so many raids in Legion and BfA were both all hunter and mage spec has been struggling to even get to top 10. They have not been consistently great.

I am not sure why some people are hellbent on saying that Shadow has not been great when they have had the most top spots of all specs the last 4 years in the raids we have had. And not only that. Of the last 9 raids(Uldir excluded, can't find proper numbers for when it was current for some reason), 7 of them Shadow has been in top 5 when it was current, as in the patch the raids were launched. And the 2 other ones? Yeah, they were on 6th. If that has not been great for one single spec, I am lost for words.

[Kaver]

Do you know what your talking about? We are talking the FACT that the very second any Shaman spec is competitive they get nerfed into the ground while Mage Rogue are far superior and get zero nerfs. This in includes Hunters. This garbage class favortism needs to end and it won't....ever.

Do you think I haven't been watching? Enhance was great season 1 Pvp but still less strong than Fire Mage and Ass Rogue and was gutted. Enhance remains gutted. Shaman are tuned with a sledgehammer Rogue and Mage are ignored no matter how OP they are. Why will that class bias change?

YOU are the one who don’t know you’re talking about.

Rogue has been nerfed multiple times in BFA. Currently Rogue is not a good class for raiding. Outlaw got horrible single target damage and it’s only good in M+ because of the utility it got. Other classes are doing much more overall damage.

Shaman was very OP during the BOD tier and it wasn’t nerfed so you are absolutely wrong.

Hunter is very OP right now in both raiding and M+.

You don’t know what you’re talking about but as you said yourself, you haven’t played the game during BFA so how would you know. You’re just here spewing misinformation based on your own ignorance. If their is any class which is consistently god tier then it’s warlocks.

[hikaritd]

Just pick mage/lock, you will be in top 1-5 on the dmg meter with one of their spec in every expac.

[woopytywoop]

Well just look at the last class they have added to the game and than my conclusion is indeed that class design sucks.

I've quit for 8 months now, and I won't come back for SL either.

Old class design will never come back again as the majority of the current player base wants this class design, the majority of people who dislike this, like me, already quit.

If you still play the game, complain and get frustrated over it, than I suggest you find yourself a new hobby. If you enjoy it, good for you, glhf!

[Krimzin]

op is definitely right with his opinion, sorry but trying to prove there are other top dps classes is stupid and ignorant...

because correct me if i'm wrong but, the issue here is not about mage and rogue is top dps all the time literally, yea there were times other classes and specs shone too, we all know that, dont try to research logs over the last 10 years and bring proof, we know, but the issue is some classes/specs are always useful and some are redundant, no matter what, please dont protect the game devs on that, its their job to make these classes balanced at some point and they definitely cant make this work.

for example i've played ret all these years because i love the spec and the aesthetics, but this expansion i will reroll to rogue just because its way easier to get in groups and actually be useful. now you might say "paladins can heal and tank too, so you cant expect them to be good in dps as a pure dps class", ok but then ill ask you this "why the hell is there such a spec as ret then?". i mean if i cant be as good as a pure dps'er ok, but then its devs responsibility to create a spot for my spec, because they are the ones who created this spec in the first place!

in this game there are useless specs, and devs dont do anything to solve this problem, if a ret cant be a good dps as a pure dps class because a paladin can heal and tank too, then create some kind of a utility dps spot which can be filled by a hybrid dps, im not obsessed with dps numbers and stuff,i just want this game to give my favourite spec a spot to fill, bring the player not the class? anyone? yea right...

back to the topic, this game was and will always be about pure class roles, but there are actually hybrid specs, expansions and expansions devs never do anything brave to actually fix it. so devs, just remove these useless hybrids at once or just come up with a new system where hybrid specs can fit in too...

Is is completely assassine. Its like you are looking for blizzard to make every class equal. Ok so forget having 12 classes. Have 3, a tank a healer and a dps, ya I know how stupid that sounds. Almost as stupid as not understanding class balancing. The more utility you bring to a group, the less dps you are going to do. Pure dps classes will always do more pure dps than a utility class. There is always going to be some classes that are stronger and always players who whine because their favor class isnt the strongest.. Get over it.

[enigma77]

Sorry,dont keep up with pvp since a long time,i have heard its pretty bad,but i dunno for sure if mages and rogues are such a problem,i hear more about warlocks being to strong,anyways, it would kinda be hard to change things,mages and rogues have a lot of cc and control,you would have to strip away iconic stuff from them to balance it

then.. do it?

I'm sorry but he's got a point. Why can other classes be pruned to the point of being trash and mages and rogues just don't? Hmm?

They are in fact op every expansion, especially in pvp. Their toolkits are fundamentally broken. And should be nerfed hard. Mages and rogues in pvp have pretty much nine lives, mountains worth of cc and way too much synergy. Make Blind (and fear!) share a DR with polymorph at last! Do SOMETHING to them.

[Aeluron Lightsong]

Well just look at the last class they have added to the game and than my conclusion is indeed that class design sucks.

I've quit for 8 months now, and I won't come back for SL either.

Old class design will never come back again as the majority of the current player base wants this class design, the majority of people who dislike this, like me, already quit.

If you still play the game, complain and get frustrated over it, than I suggest you find yourself a new hobby. If you enjoy it, good for you, glhf!

Generally saying "I don't like class design" is a vague statement and well nobody knows what you mean.

[Krimzin]

[QUOTE=Doffen;52606107]Warcraftlogs, real numbers disagrees with you big time. You are just objectively wrong about this. And that's the end of it.

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Do you understand how the top 10 in Warcraft logs work? The guilds feed the player every possible dps advantage, complete ignore mechanics and do nothing but focus on parsing. They also kill it the bosses so fast that the numbers are skewed. Look at fight lengths. So unless your only goal is to parse and have a guild willing to let you princess it, then the top numbers mean absolutely dick.

[Doffen]

Do you understand how the top 10 in Warcraft logs work? The guilds feed the player every possible dps advantage, complete ignore mechanics and do nothing but focus on parsing. They also kill it the bosses so fast that the numbers are skewed. Look at fight lengths. So unless your only goal is to parse and have a guild willing to let you princess it, then the top numbers mean absolutely dick.

Talking about statistic. Not player rankings. So yeah, I totally get how it works. And the numbers I work with here is from the launch date/patch of the raid. Still, statistic.

I mean, sure every guild might just feed their Fire Mages in Ny'alotha so Fire Mage ain't really that good, just getting fed :P

(last sentence was sarcasm btw)

[Lindon]

And I just spent 2 hours reading nothing but negative feedback. Wake up? Its the same awful class design.

And I just spent 4 hours reading nothing but positive feedback. Checkmate.

[msdos]

Shamans will be whatever in PVE. What worries me is Shamans in PVP. They're complete trash and there definitely isn't time to bring them up to par defensively. They have to be glass cannons in PVP, otherwise they're unplayable. Either that or make all of their CC crazy in a patch. A lot of CC and damage could work.

[Queen of Hamsters]

I don't give a fuck about balance, I want my class to be fun to play.

And my class will suck the same in SL as it did in BfA. Considering whether I should just bite the bullet and change mains for the first time in 11 years.

[LanToaster]

How so? A bunch of LFR scrubs are going to convince me? I was a top parsing SV Hunter in Wrath. Top parsing in Mop.

How about you back up your claims?

[Pamir]

Is is completely assassine. Its like you are looking for blizzard to make every class equal. Ok so forget having 12 classes. Have 3, a tank a healer and a dps, ya I know how stupid that sounds. Almost as stupid as not understanding class balancing. The more utility you bring to a group, the less dps you are going to do. Pure dps classes will always do more pure dps than a utility class. There is always going to be some classes that are stronger and always players who whine because their favor class isnt the strongest.. Get over it.

dude you are missing the whole point i am trying to make... its ok if utility specs dont do as much dps as the pure dps classes, but then in this system there is no place for utility classes, people always pick pure dps over utility specs because how the game works, i am saying the game should create a spot for utility dps, you get it now?

[LanToaster]

That's the part I never quite get about people. If a person doesn't like the game, why can't they go play something else, instead of expecting Blizzard to cater their particular wants and needs? That's not going to happen. Too many different wants and needs to satisfy already.

I agree, and also I dont really get why so many people care about which spec in theory does the most DPS. If you look at the Statistics, each specc can do enough damage to clear the Content, why do people care so much?

I always think about this Comic:
https://www.darklegacycomics.com/558