Will Blizzard nerf your "meaningful choice"?

[kaminaris]

like they did with azerite armor? which, unlike covenant powers, was pretty much universaly hated?

Azerite armor is actually much better version than tier sets and it wasn't hated at all, from the moment you got vendor so 8.1.
Especially when non-raiding casuals could get hands on them.

[Unholyground]

like they did with azerite armor? which, unlike covenant powers, was pretty much universaly hated?

If people keep bitching it will happen sooner than later.

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Azerite armor is actually much better version than tier sets and it wasn't hated at all, from the moment you got vendor so 8.1.
Especially when non-raiding casuals could get hands on them.

No it was really horrible because the fix to make azerite armor good was making the traits craft-able gems/items that fit in the armor, all they needed to do was add in one more trait per ring but make it a socket. I gave them that idea and tons of people liked the idea but they shit on it. It was a very poor excuse of a gearing system because you had zero control or choice of the outcome.

[Kralljin]

Blizzard is going to decouple the abilities from the covenants by 9.1 mark my words, everyone knows it is going to happen. They ALWAYS stick to their guns with stuff like this to make some obscure point only the smug developers care about and then cave when they realize we were right to begin with.

Putting my money on 9.2 / 9.3.

9.1 is too soon, there they probably attempt to salvage the system by reducing the barrier to swap covenants around and possibly nerfing the Conduit swap CD.
Possibly also throw in some Conduits that counterbalance the obvious shortcomings of certain covenant abilities.

[Rinaul]

no one is buying that.

OP brings up a good point.

What is choice when decisions made above change what you picked through no power or player agency of your own.

I play solo or with a few close friends so I'm on the same boat. Just going for the cosmetic /theme and calling it a day.

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Azerite armor is actually much better version than tier sets and it wasn't hated at all, from the moment you got vendor so 8.1.
Especially when non-raiding casuals could get hands on them.

I agree. Once they fixed it worth vendor I was good. Really hope tier don't come back

[kaminaris]

If people keep bitching it will happen sooner than later.

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No it was really horrible because the fix to make azerite armor good was making the traits craft-able gems/items that fit in the armor, all they needed to do was add in one more trait per ring but make it a socket. I gave them that idea and tons of people liked the idea but they shit on it. It was a very poor excuse of a gearing system because you had zero control or choice of the outcome.

No it was not. First of all tier sets were no choice, if devs decided you will have shit bonus then you had shit bonus and couldn't do anything about it.
Second, tier sets were only available from raids. Azerite gear is still available from raids and on top of that you have vendor with 2 options: RNG 1/6 cheaper or static but more expensive.
Third, you actually have 100% control and choice since raid drops were static and vendor sold specific pieces.
They also took only 3 slots instead of 4.
Didn't have secondary stats so you didn't have to worry about wearing garbo stats.

Literally superior to tier sets in every way.

[Lolites]

If people keep bitching it will happen sooner than later.

i see you did not understand at all
99% were bitching about dozen or so things that were wrong about azerite, and they changed literaly one thath changed very little and then stacked another systems on it...
far less people are bitching about covenants and you think they will change it? you are very naive...

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Azerite armor is actually much better version than tier sets and it wasn't hated at all, from the moment you got vendor so 8.1.
Especially when non-raiding casuals could get hands on them.

azerite armor got a lot of hatred after vendor... personaly i didnt have that much of issue with it but it got a lot of different issues it was hated for...

[kaminaris]

azerite armor got a lot of hatred after vendor... personaly i didnt have that much of issue with it but it got a lot of different issues it was hated for...

No, not really, just some minor screeches on forum. In game like nobody complained. Also these people prolly forgotten how shit tier sets were.

[Unholyground]

No, not really, just some minor screeches on forum. In game like nobody complained. Also these people prolly forgotten how shit tier sets were.

Ya but having a socket in each ring where each profession could craft a certain amount of them was a way more elegant way to do it and make professions useful the entire expansion. I didn't even know you could buy gear with the traits you wanted until now, so Blizzard defiantly did a terrible job of conveying that lol. regardless that isn't the point, there were vastly superior ideas to their own like what I just mentioned that would have been the easy permanent fix to the solution.

[Martymark]

Out of curiosity: do you also pay them your hard earned money since 15 years, making them know you love how they develop the game?

Not anymore. Was a Forsaken/Night Elf player. BFA's horrendous treatment of both the races I played finally broke me free of a 15 year addiction.

[Alkizon]

azerite armor got a lot of hatred after vendor...

In fact, they made same mistake as innovation discussed now, with the only exception that at first they were based on RNG and were mined from any resource (they had effect on an equal footing with class talents while not being tied to character, which, in such way, is done wrong). Actually, why to reinvent the wheel, here are couple of such topics <1> <2> <3> <4> and these are only those that I have somehow taken out separately, and there were much more of them (not to mention even official forums), person is just mocking you, he also took part in these

As for tier sets, then they had specific separated purpose in the system, however, they didn't make that exactly mistake, which the above mentioned mocker considers as "AA's merit", they separated the raid content and polished "roughness of individual development directions" for it, not always, of course, successfully, but these are private solutions, and we're mostly talking here about system as a whole (i.e. in general, they obeyed basic rules/requirements of hierarchy). Here tier threads <1> <2> <3>

[GoKs]

I cant get past this feeling that Blizzard is contradicting themselves by saying meaningful choice. They dont want every one playing the same build of set class/spec, yet they bring back classwide abilities... Dont say one thing then do another. If players want to min max, just let them. They removed the meaningful choice a long time ago, to cater for the majority of the playerbase, just to want to force people to make a choice after such a long time again, it doesnt make sense. Will it affect me when timmy min max to his hearts content? No. Will I feel that I didnt have a choice but to min max because timmy did? No. Will I be forced to do anything the so called 1%ers do because I read a guide stating that is the best talents etc. for my spec? No.

I make that choice, not timmy. I read guides to see where I can improve, if I dont like using a ability suggested by the guide (99.9% of the time because I suck), then I use something else even if it does less damage according to the guide, in reality for me it would balance out the damage if I use for example a passive ability over a active ability since not pressing the active ability button I lose more damage.

I get that people want their choices to matter, but that ship has sailed a long time ago. Would my choice matter to me when I pick a covenant even if it did not have player power ( 1% or 20%) connected to it? Yes it would still have mattered to me. Will my choice matter to me if it goes live as it is now? Yes it would matter to me, since in both cases I make the choice. I will still go to read a guide and try the "BiS" covenant, but if I dont like it, I will switch, but that is the way I want to play and I cant help but feel sorry for timmy that cannot play the way he wants to play by min maxing to his hearts content.

It boggles my mind how some people want to tell others how to have fun in a game, and that choices should matter. Every ones choice matters, and every one wants to make the choice to play the game they like, how they like.

[kaminaris]

It boggles my mind how some people want to tell others how to have fun in a game, and that choices should matter. Every ones choice matters, and every one wants to make the choice to play the game they like, how they like.

Oh the irony.

Thing is, gameplay will be fundamentally different vs how it would be without any restrictions. You can't pretend.

[GoKs]

Oh the irony.

Thing is, gameplay will be fundamentally different vs how it would be without any restrictions. You can't pretend.

Ok I had a loong post flaming at you, then decided I should rather try and find out from you how gameplay will be fundamentally different before I get all mad for nothing. So please tell me how will gameplay differ?

[Elias01]

Ok I had a loong post flaming at you, then decided I should rather try and find out from you how gameplay will be fundamentally different before I get all mad for nothing. So please tell me how will gameplay differ?

Every single player will swap covenants based on meta. Everyone will demand and exepect you to have right covenant for different situations. Why? Becouse if you can swap them with press of the button its reasonable to ask it. They will turn into talents and as we know everybody runs exact same talents for exact same situtions.

[Baconeggcheese]

Every single player will swap covenants based on meta. Everyone will demand and exepect you to have right covenant for different situations. Why? Becouse if you can swap them with press of the button its reasonable to ask it. They will turn into talents and as we know everybody runs exact same talents for exact same situtions.

Do you believe people won't run meta regardless?

[kaminaris]

Ok I had a loong post flaming at you, then decided I should rather try and find out from you how gameplay will be fundamentally different before I get all mad for nothing. So please tell me how will gameplay differ?

That is your problem to figure, growing up ability to actually understand another person point of view is really valuable.
I had this exercise in classes, try to be split your personality in two, like two polar opposite opinions. Then argue with yourself presenting arguments pro and against for each sides.

Like I am doing it whole time. You know that I would love for covenants to be like talent row right? Cause it would give me much less of a headache as m raider.
But that would be absolute garbo for people that actually care about RPG aspects. So I don't promote my point of view as it is bad for overall game.

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Do you believe people won't run meta regardless?

Yes because it won't be feasible, so people won't expect you to swap covenants because it's not easy.

People who play different content on really high level (lets be honest, nobody from mmoc is even near that level) will have 2 alts for that, or even 3 if pvp, raids and M+.

Everyone else will have to pick the one they care about most and have a bit of disadvantage in other content. Nothing that gitting gud wouldn't solve.

[Rageonit]

It boggles my mind how some people want to tell others how to have fun in a game, and that choices should matter. Every ones choice matters, and every one wants to make the choice to play the game they like, how they like.

You never play the game how you like to play it, every game has a set of rules that are forced upon you. Just because you enjoyed some of the rules as they were up till now, doesn't mean you could choose the way you play the game.
Why do raids have a week long lockout? Because that's a rule the designers force upon you.
Why does pet battle rez have a cooldown? Because that's a rule forced upon you.
Why can't I have 7 talent points and pick any talents I enjoy, and instead I have to pick one talent out of each row? Because that's a rule forced upon you.
Why can't I freely swap covenant abilities? Because that's a rule forced upon you. Just like any other rule in the game.
So I want to be able to pick any talents I want, without the restriction of picking only one talent out of each row. Just give me a fixed pool of talent points and allow me to do anything I want with them. Should the designers change the rules just because that's how I choose to play? It would allow people to min-max even more, so it has to be good for the game, right? Blizzard, give us more flexibility with talent choices! Pull the ripcord already, everyone knows you can't balance shit!
Yet, people learnt to live with the fact that you can choose only one talent out of each row.

As far as Covenants go, the game already has different set of abilities that follow different rules. Class abilities follow different rules than talent abilities, which follow different rules than racial abilities, which follow different rules than, for example, essence abilities in BfA. Not much as changed in terms of existing rules, and Covenant abilities are a new set of abilities that follow new set of rules. That's all.

EDIT: BTW, I find the recent Preach video - where he complains the designers tell him how to play the game - quite amusing. A big boy like him should know that it's true in terms of any facet of the game. You raid how the designers tell you to, you do pet battles how the designers tell you to, you PvP how the designers tell you to. The only difference is that this time around, he doesn't enjoy the rules. The fact that you can min-max as much as you can in WoW, is also because the designers allow you to. It was theirs choice, not Preach's. Preach can only do as much as play within the set of rules forced upon him by the game, and make use of those rules to his advantage.

[Lei]

You never play the game how you like to play it, every game has a set of rules that are forced upon you. Just because you enjoyed some of the rules as they were up till now, doesn't mean you could choose the way you play the game.
Why do raids have a week long lockout? Because that's a rule the designers force upon you.
Why does pet battle rez have a cooldown? Because that's a rule forced upon you.
Why can't I have 7 talent points and pick any talents I enjoy, and instead I have to pick one talent out of each row? Because that's a rule forced upon you.
Why can't I freely swap covenant abilities? Because that's a rule forced upon you. Just like any other rule in the game.
So I want to be able to pick any talents I want, without the restriction of picking only one talent out of each row. Just give me a fixed pool of talent points and allow me to do anything I want with them. Should the designers change the rules just because that's how I choose to play? It would allow people to min-max even more, so it has to be good for the game, right? Blizzard, give us more flexibility with talent choices! Pull the ripcord already, everyone knows you can't balance shit!
Yet, people learnt to live with the fact that you can choose only one talent out of each row.

As far as Covenants go, the game already has different set of abilities that follow different rules. Class abilities follow different rules than talent abilities, which follow different rules than racial abilities, which follow different rules than, for example, essence abilities in BfA. Not much as changed in terms of existing rules, and Covenant abilities are a new set of abilities that follow new set of rules. That's all.

EDIT: BTW, I find the recent Preach video - where he complains the designers tell him how to play the game - quite amusing. A big boy like him should know that it's true in terms of any facet of the game. You raid how the designers tell you to, you do pet battles how the designers tell you to, you PvP how the designers tell you to. The only difference is that this time around, he doesn't enjoy the rules. The fact that you can min-max as much as you can in WoW, is also because the designers allow you to. It was theirs choice, not Preach's. Preach can only do as much as play within the set of rules forced upon him by the game, and make use of those rules to his advantage.

This is an interesting take because up until certain point you couldn't even change specs that easily, and the devs were adamant that yo uare a spec, not a class. And then somehow, for some reason this restriction, or rule as you say was changed.
And then if you read blue posts or watch dev interviews you would know how many times the devs said "we didn't think the players would do this to achieve their goals", "we didn't think they would play like this". Familiar? It's been a mantra, especially in the last 2 expansions.

[Rageonit]

This is an interesting take because up until certain point you couldn't even change specs that easily, and the devs were adamant that yo uare a spec, not a class. And then somehow, for some reason this restriction, or rule as you say was changed.
And then if you read blue posts or watch dev interviews you would know how many times the devs said "we didn't think the players would do this to achieve their goals", "we didn't think they would play like this". Familiar? It's been a mantra, especially in the last 2 expansions.

In a living game like WoW, no rule is set in stone, obviously. Which is fine, because gaming evolves, gamers evolve, what was great 15 years ago may not be fine anymore. Design teams change, and with them, the vision of the game changes too. Nothing new under the sun.

As for the second part... I think most of the time the devs know very well that some players will try to forcefully take advantage of gaps in a system. I'm sure they know some players wil try to swap covenants as often as possible to maximize results. What they do not know is, to what extent is it going to happen? We don't know that either, we don't have any stats available. And I think sometimes they will introduce systems to the game with an unspoken intent to loosen the restrictions in future (but for obvious reason, they won't talk about it openly). Take corruptions, for example. Did they not know stacking corruptions will result in huge imbalances? I think they knew very well - and that's why they introduced the system the way it was in the beginning: random corruptions on random items. It made stacking really really hard (you had to loot your BiS item, WITH your BiS corruption), helping to cover the fact that it's prone to imbalances. Players think the vendor was introduced due to popular demand, but I would argue it's quite possible the option to put in the vendor was there from the very beginning (like the infamous ripcord), and they chose to use it when the imbalances didn't matter anymore (all the races over, most people just waiting for the release of SL). Helped to up the subs by luring back players who were not lucky with drops, and who could now just buy the corruptions by farming enough Echoes (which requires time = more subs). It would mean that Blizzard are not really against imbalances, as long as they can more or less keep them in check. If they think something is fun, they will do it - minimizing the risks as much as they can. I guess they found corruptions fun (and I know that many people do love them - our DK tank is so sad TD is going away in SL, even though he knows well enough it's imbalanced) and decided to introduce them, without overthinking it. Que sera, sera xD

I think Ion's promises of balancing Covenants as much as they can is, in part, a marketing pitch. They know well enough that you can't really do that, balance abilities that follow very different core rules. And they are okay with that. They have their vision of the game's direction, they want to try to give players a bit more class identity, and just observe what will happen. If people won't learn to live with the rules as they are, and will unsub massively, they will pull the ripcord. May seem a risky strategy, but it seems - bar Covenants - SL is getting a lot of praise, so for now, they are not afraid of REAL backlash (because complaining and staying subbed is no backlash at all).

[klaps_05]

ive been a class
ive been a player
ive been a spec
ive been a talent
ill be a covenant soon
then ill be a conduit
blizzard turning us all into schizophrenics