Which character do you think has the most plot armor?

[TheramoreIsTheBomb]

Definitely Anduin. We know he's safe for years to come and we don't know if even though he's old that he still may be immortal like Velen at that point. While we know Sylvanas is doomed to the maw despite how strong she is.but since blizz said its a possible vision, sylvanas atm

[Cracked]

Eh, there are many characters who just can't die. WoW writing is terrible overall. Worst of all, the players have the thickest plot armor.

[melzas]

I voted Jaina and Thrall. Oh they aren't on the list.

[Stardrift]

Definitely Anduin. We know he's safe for years to come and we don't know if even though he's old that he still may be immortal like Velen at that point. While we know Sylvanas is doomed to the maw despite how strong she is.but since blizz said its a possible vision, sylvanas atm

He isn't safe for years to come. The vision Velen had about the army of light has been thrown out the window after his call to action Illidan inspired/forced him to take, following the death of Xera.

His whole arc in Legion was coming out and taking action, instead of waiting for things to happen for you. Take matter into your own hands, etc. The vision of Anduin was just that, a vision from the light and what they desire for the world. As much as Velen would have liked that, he said no to it, as his desire to end the Burning Legion was greater than his desire for that future.

[Varitok]

Eh, there are many characters who just can't die. WoW writing is terrible overall. Worst of all, the players have the thickest plot armor.

That's because, you know, you can't kill the player unless its the end of the game. That is just not how gaming works.

[Nathreim]

Anduin.

He went from a completely pathetic melee fighter who was crippled to able to somehow beat Orc warriors by swinging his sword like a 5 year old with a pinata stick.

Also all the Alliance leadership which is largely unchanged since Warcraft 2.

[Dazmalak]

What is considered plot armor? Always succeeding at what you set out to do? Never dying? Dying, but coming back to life over and over again? Of everyone on the list, only the Champion wins all the time despite the odds (or has convenient npc intervention to bail them out of tight spots). We can die infinitely and always come back.

Excluding the obvious choice of Champion, I'd say Anduin. While Sylvanas has been brought back from death several times, she doesn't seem to ever actually succeed at anything (except kicking Bolvar's ass). Anduin on the other hand seems to always have things conveniently work out in his favor, even when he's a total fuck up.

[LemonDemonGirl]

Uhh.... We do I guess? Our characters have cannonally died during the Argus encounter, and if your character's a DK, they've died too

[Broken Fox]

Thrall, Anduin and Jaina.

Sylvanas too. She'll probably become the new Jailer or some shit.

[haediff]

Why would you even include the player as an option? That’s stupid.

[Kaleredar]

Sylvanas. Like how is it even a question?

And I'm not just talking about "gets into a scrap and comes out miraculously unharmed," I mean "does something colossally stupid that should upend the horde's relation with critical allies and faces absolutely zero repercussions for it."

Cenarion circle? Completely mum on the burning of a world tree. Unleashing the blight? The argent crusade have no opinion. Stealing away Kolitira deathweaver for years of torture? Knights of the Ebon blade will get around to freeing him and then just let bygones be bygones. Attempting to enslave the queen of the val'kyr using an artifact obtained by making a deal with the mortal enemy of the valarjar? Odyn can't be bothered to remember that happened.

And don't give me that edgy "She's so STRONG and FIERCE that they just HAVE to let her do those things!" answer; it's patently hole-filled writing.

Let's also not forget that she's died three fucking times. How many times does a character get to be brought back from the dead before it becomes stupid?

And through ALL of this... all of her losses, all of her barely-scraped together victories because some deus-ex machina came through for her in the end... she's still the same insufferably smarmy bint of a character to boot. No character growth. No development. No characterization beyond "well you see, she's scheming to some unknown end."

No other characters come remotely close.

[Super Dickmann]

Anduin in all fields by a mile, beating even the PC.

From a bird's view of story construction he's the only Blizzard character who had a future vision of him appear making him immortal for as long as Blizzard stick to it. It wasn't a vision but a concrete situation that would take place later. Until that happens nothing can happen that would lastingly change that he's A) The King in Exodar B) Completely intact, if old C) Still buddies with Velen and friends. The PC is the only other one to have this.

Physically he's had a bell powered by void dropped on him and is cast as being this weakling who has physicality as his main weakness. But he offs orcs and troll warriors in one hit, and the consequence of that bell is not to put him in a wheelchair but to give him a magical power that lets him tell who's right and wrong. Even Jaina in Theramore got a hairswap and Thrall got male pattern baldness. Sylvanas actually dies and then has an in-story reason to be brought back. Anduin though? Nada. Only the PC matches him.

But the most important thing, ideologically and narratively is that he's the carrier of Blizzard's message ergo he has never been and never will be wrong (intentionally by the writers). Every character that disagrees with him will ultimately adopt his worldview or die. No matter the cock-up, the narrative will not focus on it or bring it up but instead pivot to others. Other characters might cheaply escape death or have their allies or foes react to them in absurdly improbable ways (Jaina, Sylvanas), but only one character has this effect universally on not just every other participant in the plot, but the plot itself. The agenda Anduin represents - that of world peace, universal acceptance and closer and closer homogenization of all groups into a single lawful good blob is non-negotiable and thus Anduin is non-negotiable. This is where he beats the PC and claims the crown. The PC shovels shit for money and among other things can be Forsaken or Night Elf, he can take quests where he's a dumb boob, but Anduin never can and that's why he wins.

[Deventh]

Anduin, because the writers on this game suck. Simply suck.

[bowlink]

Sylvanas with anduin in a close second

[Hitei]

Anduin in all fields by a mile, beating even the PC.

From a bird's view of story construction he's the only Blizzard character who had a future vision of him appear making him immortal for as long as Blizzard stick to it. It wasn't a vision but a concrete situation that would take place later. Until that happens nothing can happen that would lastingly change that he's A) The King in Exodar B) Completely intact, if old C) Still buddies with Velen and friends. The PC is the only other one to have this.

Physically he's had a bell powered by void dropped on him and is cast as being this weakling who has physicality as his main weakness. But he offs orcs and troll warriors in one hit, and the consequence of that bell is not to put him in a wheelchair but to give him a magical power that lets him tell who's right and wrong. Even Jaina in Theramore got a hairswap and Thrall got male pattern baldness. Sylvanas actually dies and then has an in-story reason to be brought back. Anduin though? Nada. Only the PC matches him.

But the most important thing, ideologically and narratively is that he's the carrier of Blizzard's message ergo he has never been and never will be wrong (intentionally by the writers). Every character that disagrees with him will ultimately adopt his worldview or die. No matter the cock-up, the narrative will not focus on it or bring it up but instead pivot to others. Other characters might cheaply escape death or have their allies or foes react to them in absurdly improbable ways (Jaina, Sylvanas), but only one character has this effect universally on not just every other participant in the plot, but the plot itself. The agenda Anduin represents - that of world peace, universal acceptance and closer and closer homogenization of all groups into a single lawful good blob is non-negotiable and thus Anduin is non-negotiable. This is where he beats the PC and claims the crown. The PC shovels shit for money and among other things can be Forsaken or Night Elf, he can take quests where he's a dumb boob, but Anduin never can and that's why he wins.

He doesn't, even remotely. Every choice in this poll besides player character is honestly just objectively wrong.

Anduin could easily be killed off and the future vision made wrong or just one "potential" future. He had a bell dropped on him? Lol. The PC has been, literally thousands of times, stabbed, shot, poisoned, cursed, and outright canonically killed multiple times.

So the reality of the first two points you make isn't that the PC matches Anduin in terms immortality and physical plot armor, it's that the PC so exceeds Anduin in immortality and protection, that you cannot possibly even begin to compare the two. Anduin's close calls look like a handful of papercuts compared to the decades of assured (and outright experienced) death the PC has gone through completely unscathed. Countless NPCs have died to protect the PC from various situations, dozens of times they've been captured by enemy forces (including "inescapable" places) only to get out without a single scratch, corrupting and dangerous effects that kill or turn everyone else slide right off. Major, world-threatening villains frequently have the PC defenseless and simply choose to let them go for no reason at all.

Anduin also doesn't beat the PC in infallibility even slightly. Anduin is frequently wrong. Shit tons of people died (furthering Sylvanas' goals) because of his choices in BfA, and it was directly pointed to in cinematic. His choices have soured relations with the Night Elves. You think Anduin's bad choices go unpunished? The PC has been on a 15 year path of genocide wiping out any and every group across ~five continents and three planets, often just because someone asked them to, and has never, ever faced any sort of consequence. The PC doing shit shoveling doesn't change plot armor when they've killed more people than Arthas, Sylvanas and Deathwing combined and are still treated as the just and noble peace-loving hero.

The literal planet itself picks the PC as the chosen one. As do both factions and a fair number of secondary organizations. The fact that the PC can be Forsaken and take quests where they're a dumb boob strengthens the plot armor. Because even as a Forsaken player happily beating helpless, buried farmers to death with a shovel in Hillsbrad, and actively trying to help Sylvanas, and shoveling shit for a few coins--that PC is still the chosen hero of the faction, champion of Azeroth herself, the beacon of Honor and Justice and one destined to make everything right.

Anduin is kept very clean in the narrative. But the PC doesn't even have to keep clean. The PC rolls around in blood and filth and the sheer amount of plot armor makes even the most dirty PC a beacon of cleanliness, and every danger or trial a passing trifle.

Most important NPCs are heavily plot-shielded until its convenient for them not to be. The PC is just 100%, completely and totally plot shielded in every possible way, at literally all times, forever.

[Super Dickmann]

@Hitei

You would be right, if the standards applied to each by virtue of their role weren't massively different. Anduin surviving an evil bell dropping on him with zero consequence is stupid, ditto him being able to wreck trained warriors in one hit despite physical inexperienced being his whole shtick. But if Sargeras had a bell dropped on him or chopped down some footmen, that'd not just be unremarkable, it'd be retarded to even bring it up. Some random imp, by virtue of possessing a demonic soul will always go back to the Twisting Nether and respawn. Does that mean that Daglop has more plot armor than Sylvanas or Jaina? Of course not. What matters is how they stack up relative to their role - the PC, relative to his role, is about on par with Anduin, but due to his particulars, is more questionable.

The PC is narratively unbeatable, he will be there until the end of the game because the PC is the game. Anduin, at the time of writing, and until Blizzard retcons this, is confirmed to exist until it closes as well. That's a toss-up but the writers can change their mind and kill him off, you're right. The game could also close and then they would write short stories like they did Starcraft. In that case, Anduin will live on while the PC will pop out of existence because he's a questionable canon blank slate.

The PC does indeed always come back. But the PC can and does get killed thousands of times and gameplay-wise, that's how it works. Anduin meanwhile has simply suffered no lasting harm at any point physically and unlike the PC, his role isn't such that he can't - you can't perma kill or maim the PC because it's just an avatar of the player and that'd be shit, but you can hurt an NPC, but don't do it. It's the very reason NPC plot armor is egregious but nobody is frustrated that a party member's character isn't perma dead after some fuckwit kills himself on the lightning in Temple of Sethrallis despite the expansion being out for two cunting years at this point, much as we might wish to. Within the rules that apply to them, both emerge unscathed.

Anduin is frequently wrong only in the assessment of the consumer, not in the assessment of the writer. There is not a single character that has said a bad word about Anduin and not been proven wrong - the issue with the night elves is not cast as fucking up relations to appease the enemy, nor is him throwing his troops into the meatgrinder because attacking while the Horde are sad cast as bad. They're cast as heroic and moral decisions that everyone should make and everyone we're meant to support does in fact think and act in the same way. Those who point him out are strawmen. The PC can have 'The Gullible' as his title, can have the nature of his race and class change at a whim and has say, Nathanos, talk shit to him constantly. The PC and Anduin both get away with absolutely everything in the service of the plot, but only one has been lectured or insulted by ones the narrative supports and it isn't the story's golden child.

Again, by virtue of the role, the PC must be unpunished because there can be no stop to the player's experience, yet is still lectured to or is told he was wrong and a dumbass, like Xe'ra questline where the PCs are shown to be morons who killed Illidan for epics and so nearly doomed the world. Nothing in the real world prevents stories being written where Anduin acts like a boob and the story acknowledges it yet they don't exist.

[omeomorfismo]

Sylvanas. Like how is it even a question?

And I'm not just talking about "gets into a scrap and comes out miraculously unharmed," I mean "does something colossally stupid that should upend the horde's relation with critical allies and faces absolutely zero repercussions for it."

Cenarion circle? Completely mum on the burning of a world tree. Unleashing the blight? The argent crusade have no opinion. Stealing away Kolitira deathweaver for years of torture? Knights of the Ebon blade will get around to freeing him and then just let bygones be bygones. Attempting to enslave the queen of the val'kyr using an artifact obtained by making a deal with the mortal enemy of the valarjar? Odyn can't be bothered to remember that happened.

And don't give me that edgy "She's so STRONG and FIERCE that they just HAVE to let her do those things!" answer; it's patently hole-filled writing.

Let's also not forget that she's died three fucking times. How many times does a character get to be brought back from the dead before it becomes stupid?

And through ALL of this... all of her losses, all of her barely-scraped together victories because some deus-ex machina came through for her in the end... she's still the same insufferably smarmy bint of a character to boot. No character growth. No development. No characterization beyond "well you see, she's scheming to some unknown end."

No other characters come remotely close.

cenarion circle literraly gave zero fuck about staghelm's world tree, like the aspects until the nelf pc discovered some nightmare corruption and so it needed to be enchanted by them. not even malfurion liked the tree...

lul? the only reason because sylvanas could use nathanos' nephew was because some argent crusaders started to murder forsakens and the boy was one of them...


even the ebon blade know how much a failure koltira was, and still they attacked the forsaken to retrieve it when he was somewhat necessary


we literally had all legion and even the chronicles to understand how much crazy odyn is...



and lol? what deus ex happened during the plaguelands civil wars? gilneas conquest? battle for andorhal? thorns war? or undercity siege? i mean, the last 3 had effectively deus ex, first kolthira convenientely forgotting to be a fucking violence addicted dk, then we had elune lobotomizing saurfang, and the last has so many of them for the alliance that is annoying even only remember them.

[Hitei]

[MENTION=550673]-snip-

The PC isn't on par with Anduin in their relative role though. Because Anduin is the same relative class champion level as the player, and even if we pretend that being hit by a giant bell and surviving is remotely comparable to things like human beings being sprayed directly with the blight and casually shrugging it off, fighting five-story tall giants made of solid stone and blocking their attacks with shields, or riding on the back of a dragon aspect who puts off so much heat and energy, he melted/seared a giant scar through the landscape--the sheer frequency makes the two incomparable. Yes, Anduin survived his close calls and maybe they were like the player's plot armor encounters, but the player has gone through literally hundreds of situations where a champion fighter, or even one of the strongest members of a given class or race, should have been dead, full stop.

The mere fact that Anduin was briefly injured and out of commission for months should tell you exactly how absurd this comparison is. Because the player takes hits like those on a day to day basis, and the absolute worst that has ever happened is that they get knocked out, wake up minutes/hours later and dust themselves off 100% completely unscratched and ready to immediately go back to fighting.

Again, they do not need to retcon the Anduin future vision, because a vision is all it is, and he could very well die anytime before it, making it false or of a different potential outcome, or anytime after it. The PC will never die. Not in any situation where they aren't back within seconds. The fact that you had to write:

you can't perma kill or maim the PC because it's just an avatar of the player and that'd be shit, but you can hurt an NPC. It's the very reason NPC plot armor is egregious but nobody is frustrated that a party member's character isn't perma dead

I.e. "but he's very plot armored FOR AN NPC", should tell you that these two things are not equal. PCs are so plot armored that you are having to come up with "relative" scales for the two so that you can even place them in the same competition. But even in that highly suspect method of scaling, he's still not coming out on top, because he HAS been harmed and he CAN die. If you are comparing the amount two things are untouchable, and one is "literally cannot being touched" and the other is "has only been touched a bit, but could be touched more at any point" the winner is very clear.

For clarity, I'm not even talking about your generic, "release and ress" deaths, which are simply a facet of this being a video game. I'm pointing out that the PC has died multiples IN CANON, i.e. quests, encounters, etc. And is always brought back. You are killed by Arthas and plot armored back to life because apparently Terenas is somehow able to mass ress despite being dead himself. You die to Argus but are brought back by Eonar. Player DHs are strong enough to kill themselves opening a portal and come back. Warriors die in their class hall opening but Odyn just decides that's not going to happen and sends a Val'kyr to casually prevent that death. You die for questlines in Tanaris, Azshara, Grizzly Hills, MC attunement and Uuna. The PC isn't just deathless by virtue of it being a video game, they are narratively much more capable of coming back to life than normal mortals.

Again, by virtue of the role, the PC must be unpunished because there can be no stop to the player's experience, yet is still lectured to or is told he was wrong and a dumbass, like Xe'ra questline where the PCs are shown to be morons who killed Illidan for epics and so nearly doomed the world. Nothing in the real world prevents stories being written where Anduin acts like a boob and the story acknowledges it yet they don't exist.

Anduin is depicted as heroic despite mistakes, the PC has even outright villainy erased into heroism. The fact that occasionally a person (who almost always ends up being either evil, dead, or both; Xe'ra, Nathanos, Staghelm) claims the PC has done wrong doesn't change that they are exalted by 99.9999% of the other NPCs they meet, despite anything they do, even more than the literal king of a faction. The fact is, even the game's story itself doesn't agree with people like Xe'ra, because Illidan's forces were actively antagonizing the forces of good on Outland, including the NAARU THEMSELVES, who led the attack on Black Temple, and the only reason why Illidan was able to fulfil his destiny was by virtue of the PC having delayed his plans so that instead of the Illidari all being slaughtered, he had the Army of Light with him and the insanely plot armored PCs there to just casually mow their way through the Legion's own HQ without a scratch, and Magni around to help with the Titan shit so that Sargeras could actually be dealt with.


It's just no contest. You can take any instance of an NPC character having plot armor and the PC will have done something like that or an even more plot armored form of that, but done it a few dozen times more than any NPC.

[Orby]

Anduin.

He went from a completely pathetic melee fighter who was crippled to able to somehow beat Orc warriors by swinging his sword like a 5 year old with a pinata stick.

Also all the Alliance leadership which is largely unchanged since Warcraft 2.

Think that speaks less of the orc he killed over Anduin, the boy still cannot fight. He is a hopeless leader and far too trusting for his own good. his faults outweigh his strengths.

Also Anduin is more trained with a bow and is still training as a priest. He's never liked fighting melee like his father. As seen from that cinematic.

[Verdugo]

Alright Hitei, lets not coward out of this by saying "PC lel" and tell us, which character in actual story has most plot armor.