Burning Crusade NO NERFS!!!!

[Scoobtbh]

No. I think this is too important of a matter. This is a discussion of #NoChanges. Changes that have been made in the past; Nerfs to Heroics, Karazhan, Gruul's Lair, Maggy, SSC, TK, MH and BT. Some of the nerfs, which where due to several complaints of the content being too 'Hard'. This has to be adressed, vieuwed and reflected upon! Posting it in an already existing topic will not do justice to the importance of this matter.

Also: I hear some people saying things have to be buffed by Blizzard itself. This is not the case here, what I am merely speaking about is re-rolling the nerfs that have been done in the past to their un-nerfed state. I think this was the biggest mistake in vanilla and this should not be done in Burning Crusade.

[deenman]

Well the nerfs were released throughout the expansion and unlike classic, they have access to backups for all the patches, not just 1.12. So they should do what they did in real TBC and release stuff pre-nerf and pre-attunement-nerf and if they do wanna lower keys to honored and remove attunements / nerf stuff, do that in the relevant phases to relic actual TBC.

In any case NoChanges is not going to cut it for TBC if you ask me.

- - - Updated - - -



there were enormous raid nerfs, attunement removals, etc throughout TBC. They even moved heroic keys to honored, from revered.

But yeah there were huge nerfs throughout. Even Kara got nerfed hard early on.

there were very few actual nerfs actualy,it was mostly bug fixes,and there is no way they will launch tbc with attunements removed or keys be honored,even in classic they stalled many features and aspects of the game,they may even release the pre buffed hc and kara gear

[tikcol]

Hey guyz, I was thinking... how cool could it be... if they would release a Burning Crusade server without the nerfs applied during all the patches on the PvE content? It would make things alot more challenging! I belief it's one of the mistakes made in classic!

I'm curious about your input, since I think this is one of the most important points to keep the game healthy and challenging!

Cheers!

Maybe if they learned something from their vanilla release but I doubt it

[msdos]

I remember Prince Malch in Kara was bugged or something? He would just spam infernals the entire time? I think I killed him before the fix because I remember that fight being insanely hard as in the raid would wipe by the time he was dead, we barely killed him.

[Mirishka]

No. I think this is too important of a matter. This is a discussion of #NoChanges. Changes that have been made in the past; Nerfs to Heroics, Karazhan, Gruul's Lair, Maggy, SSC, TK, MH and BT. Some of the nerfs, which where due to several complaints of the content being too 'Hard'. This has to be adressed, vieuwed and reflected upon! Posting it in an already existing topic will not do justice to the importance of this matter.

Also: I hear some people saying things have to be buffed by Blizzard itself. This is not the case here, what I am merely speaking about is re-rolling the nerfs that have been done in the past to their un-nerfed state. I think this was the biggest mistake in vanilla and this should not be done in Burning Crusade.

"Can't... enjoy BC... unless DIFFICULT!!"

There is nothing, literally nothing, you or Blizz can do that will re-introduce the original difficulty of Classic or BC. It isn't about nerfs, its about people knowing this shit inside and out.

Not only did people do it to death in its time, they've done it to death on private servers ever since. You need to let go of this idea that BC is going to be challenging, because raiding guilds are going to curbstomp the bosses just like they've curbstomped Classic's.

[Monster Hunter]

Hey guyz, I was thinking... how cool could it be... if they would release a Burning Crusade server without the nerfs applied during all the patches on the PvE content? It would make things alot more challenging! I belief it's one of the mistakes made in classic!

I'm curious about your input, since I think this is one of the most important points to keep the game healthy and challenging!

Cheers!

Like classic, the content was easy before the nurfs, its just the players were bad back then.

For reference see what happens on the private tbc servers.

If you looking for a challenge, your playing the wrong games.

[Scoobtbh]

"Can't... enjoy BC... unless DIFFICULT!!"

There is nothing, literally nothing, you or Blizz can do that will re-introduce the original difficulty of Classic or BC. It isn't about nerfs, its about people knowing this shit inside and out.

Not only did people do it to death in its time, they've done it to death on private servers ever since. You need to let go of this idea that BC is going to be challenging, because raiding guilds are going to curbstomp the bosses just like they've curbstomped Classic's.

It's not about difficult, it's about the original game. And if I need to be fair, players in Burning Crusade where already mix-maxing more than we can remember. But... I doubt most people actualy remember the early nerfs they applied in Burning Crusade and it's such a shame players didn't got to witness it. For example: Lady Vashj did a mindcontroll during P3; Magheridon needed a more than just 5 clickers; Keal'Thas' adds had alot more healthpoints. These buffs (nerfs) made the content significantly more challenging and interesting! These are nerfs players on private servers haven't witnessed, because they where not scripted. I think only CoreCraft attempted to recreate but for some reason they shut down.

- - - Updated - - -

Like classic, the content was easy before the nurfs, its just the players were bad back then.

For reference see what happens on the private tbc servers.

If you looking for a challenge, your playing the wrong games.

As I stated; It's not about difficulty, it's about the original game.

[froschhure]

I also love the philosophy of buffing. But blizzard is driving on nerf lane ever since. I highly doubt they will ever turn on that.

[Super Kami Dende]

If Blizzard actually cared about "Presenting an authentic vanilla/bc experience" they would do something similar.

But they won't, cause they are just milking this for easy subs. I'm still glad they did it, but it could be so much better.

An Authentic experience would literally be not changing them. What the hell are you even talking about.

[Thundering]

An Authentic experience would literally be not changing them. What the hell are you even talking about.

but no changes classic did never happen.

[Revamp Man]

The only way to make these projects challenging is change them.
They need to buff them, or reorganize the difficulty in some other way, because players already know everything they would ever need to know about the content before it even comes out.

That's why I believe its a waste of time even making TBC and onwards.
Classic is different enough that you can play it without caring about difficulty, but TBC begins the "Endgame or nothing" situation, and with horrible pugging options and other restrictions, what will this product even look like a few years in?

Classic already has this issue, but TBC will be far worse.

at least tanks will have a chance to farm dagger skill level before Kael

you dont see a point and that is fine it just means the game isnt for you and that is perfectly fine man but some people want it to come out and experience it all again....not me but there are people that do lol.

- - - Updated - - -

Hey guyz, I was thinking... how cool could it be... if they would release a Burning Crusade server without the nerfs applied during all the patches on the PvE content? It would make things alot more challenging! I belief it's one of the mistakes made in classic!

I'm curious about your input, since I think this is one of the most important points to keep the game healthy and challenging!

Cheers!

or they can just realease it in the same manner as classic

listen TBC wasnt difficult either other than a need for more CC and the shit load of attunements

week 1 you will see the raids cleared almost immediately due to the fact some broken specs now work
you will have guilds gearing up paladin tanks
you will have the 3 shadow priests per 25 man
you will have the OP holy paladins
you will have the dungeon runs min maxxed
there is no mystery and even prenerf it wouldnt exist

i dont think it was even really difficulty that made TBC bosses last so long. It was the attunement factor and the fact some bosses were bugged. Plus wasnt TBC the beginning of welfare gear?? pretty tough to be a difficult experience when you can farm badges

[Monster Hunter]

It's not about difficult, it's about the original game. And if I need to be fair, players in Burning Crusade where already mix-maxing more than we can remember. But... I doubt most people actualy remember the early nerfs they applied in Burning Crusade and it's such a shame players didn't got to witness it. For example: Lady Vashj did a mindcontroll during P3; Magheridon needed a more than just 5 clickers; Keal'Thas' adds had alot more healthpoints. These buffs (nerfs) made the content significantly more challenging and interesting! These are nerfs players on private servers haven't witnessed, because they where not scripted. I think only CoreCraft attempted to recreate but for some reason they shut down.

- - - Updated - - -



As I stated; It's not about difficulty, it's about the original game.

But its no actual meaningful difference, the raid nurfs on tbc were very minor, most stuff was bug fixes, and the end effect on raid clear times will ne basicly nothing, those raids will drop in a day same as classic and no one will notice the difference nurfed or un nurfed.

Its content that litteral just don't matter anymore so the difference between a 1 min kill and a 1 min 30 kill.... like barely anyone cares just play it or don't

[mmocfd1b0ab5a3]

Hey guyz, I was thinking... how cool could it be... if they would release a Burning Crusade server without the nerfs applied during all the patches on the PvE content? It would make things alot more challenging! I belief it's one of the mistakes made in classic!

I'm curious about your input, since I think this is one of the most important points to keep the game healthy and challenging!

Cheers!

100% copy from TBC or treat it like Classic it does not matter for majority of people because they will still play it. For Blizzard it's easier to just release content phase by phase and exclude any patch changes.

I don't mind having pre nerf heroics or raids but in the end it will still be easy so why not. Bad 5 man groups might consider bringing 2 healers 1st week to HC dungeons for free clear and only taking ~10min more per dungeon.

[RevolverLynx]

As an ADHD person, facerolling the content is alot more fun.

[david0925]

I dont care either way but its kind of weird that people are asking for "authentic experience" by making things different to offset their inability to cause forced amensia on the players.

"Oh i know this fight inside and out but doubling all the numbers made it feel like back in the days again!"

?

[Scoobtbh]

at least tanks will have a chance to farm dagger skill level before Kael

you dont see a point and that is fine it just means the game isnt for you and that is perfectly fine man but some people want it to come out and experience it all again....not me but there are people that do lol.

- - - Updated - - -



i dont think it was even really difficulty that made TBC bosses last so long. It was the attunement factor and the fact some bosses were bugged. Plus wasnt TBC the beginning of welfare gear?? pretty tough to be a difficult experience when you can farm badges

This statement alone... makes me feel like you haven't played BC back in the day. First of all; if the content was THAT easy, than the attunments would have been a joke. All you had to do to enter SSC/TK was to kill raid bosses in the 1st tier, to get into MH/BT you had to clear the raid bosses in SSC/TK. That was a progressive line anyways. The issue was, that Lady Vashj and KT where so hard and long fights they nerfs where needed to make it appeal for the less hardcore.

Aswel as the 'Welfare gear'. This gear was obtainable through beating bosses from Heroic dungeons, they where actualy hard. If you remember Cataclysm Heroics in the early start, BC heroics where a + added to that (Untill they ruined the expirience and nerfed it all because people where complaining).

I think ya all got the wrong idea of what these nerfs actualy did, and will do to the game. The impact in the overal expirience will be significant. Considering even on private servers, players took 10+ minutes to kill Kael'Thas. And this was probarbly the KT on the latest patch (untill SWP Patch). Thats says enough I suppose.

[TheFirstOnes]

"what I am merely speaking about is re-rolling the nerfs that have been done in the past to their un-nerfed state." Ah yes, I do like broken shit in my video game. Either way, Classic and TBC aren't what people remembered them being. Like Classic, TBC will be played by people, and then those people will move on. Simple.

[Orange Joe]

Other games have already gone through this exact scenario, and came up with solutions.

Everquest bosses have a buff that makes them significantly harder than their oldschool counterparts, to account for players knowing everything.

If Blizzard actually cared about "Presenting an authentic vanilla/bc experience" they would do something similar.

But they won't, cause they are just milking this for easy subs. I'm still glad they did it, but it could be so much better.

These 2 statements are contradictory.

- - - Updated - - -

well it was either the last patch or the wrath pre-patch nerfed the boss hp by like 30 or 50%. kaels adds were nerfed by about 10% hp but since there are 4 adds that you have to kill twice that 10% is more like 10% x4 x2. basically an 80% nerf to the overall add hp. how much damage you need to do to kill all 4 adds both times. illidan had an ability that was removed at some point, called shear, when we got to him he didn't do shear anymore but it was kinda a wipe mechanic initially it had to be blocked or the debuff it left would likely kill the tank or contribute to them dying. it reduced their max hp by like 60%. so it would have been easy to lose the tank after getting hit by this. this ability is likely the only thing that actually made illidan 'hard' so he was defanged the moment he lost shear.

the heroics were super tuned in the beginning and were slowly nerfed over time throughout tbc. the release heroics were quite brutal but i'm not sure if that was because of the tuning or just that ppl had shitty blue dungeon gear. it was probably a bit of both. tanks getting globalled etc. for a while there at the start CC was paramount but it eventually didn't matter so much the combination of nerfs and everyone getting better gear they slowly got defanged.

Thats now how math works btw.

[Heathy]

This statement alone... makes me feel like you haven't played BC back in the day. First of all; if the content was THAT easy, than the attunments would have been a joke. All you had to do to enter SSC/TK was to kill raid bosses in the 1st tier, to get into MH/BT you had to clear the raid bosses in SSC/TK. That was a progressive line anyways. The issue was, that Lady Vashj and KT where so hard and long fights they nerfs where needed to make it appeal for the less hardcore.

Aswel as the 'Welfare gear'. This gear was obtainable through beating bosses from Heroic dungeons, they where actualy hard. If you remember Cataclysm Heroics in the early start, BC heroics where a + added to that (Untill they ruined the expirience and nerfed it all because people where complaining).

I think ya all got the wrong idea of what these nerfs actualy did, and will do to the game. The impact in the overal expirience will be significant. Considering even on private servers, players took 10+ minutes to kill Kael'Thas. And this was probarbly the KT on the latest patch (untill SWP Patch). Thats says enough I suppose.

vashj was always quite difficult because of the LoS issues and the small amount of time you have to kill the elemental and loot the core (not to mention the warlock fearing striders and tanks picking up the nagas), it was possible to just consistently fuck this up and make the fight go on for wayy to long missing core after core, kael is a 10 minute fight but its also got like 5 phases, phase 1, the adds, phase 2 the adds again, phase 3 weapons, phase 4 kael, phase 5 flying kael. there is a transition period between each phase too so its no wonder its a 10 minute fight.

Thats now how math works btw.

each add was nerfed by about 10% hp, there are 4 adds each losing 10% of their health, you have to kill them twice, so each add lost 20% of its total health that you have to reduce to zero to kill the mob. add 1 -20% + add 2 -20% + add 3 -20% + add 4 -20%. enlighten me. on how this isn't how it works, if one add was nerfed by 10% and you have to kill that add twice, then the total nerf was actually 20% per add. there are 4 adds. do the math yourself.

not to mention the boss HP itself was lowered by at least 30% by the end.

[Zeusy]

The only way to make these projects challenging is change them.
They need to buff them, or reorganize the difficulty in some other way, because players already know everything they would ever need to know about the content before it even comes out.

That's why I believe its a waste of time even making TBC and onwards.
Classic is different enough that you can play it without caring about difficulty, but TBC begins the "Endgame or nothing" situation, and with horrible pugging options and other restrictions, what will this product even look like a few years in?

Classic already has this issue, but TBC will be far worse.

I remember BC decently enough when it was live. Endgame did become important but there was 100s of guilds that still were able to exist and enjoy the game without being in t5/t6. My guild in particular was in kara farm and beginnings of SSC when the content was out for a long time. Part of what made BC so interesting was guilds could play in their own little world. You had catchup items but it was only for a few slots and the rest of them you had to go back to prior raids and catch yourself up for new content. I think it was like this until Isles of quel danas with SWP dailies and such.

Am I really remembering that terribly or was it not like that?