Why is Bastion wiping people's memories?!

[LuminaL]

Nothing *made* Uther betray his duty but Uther.

I've known a fair few of people who live with trauma. Plenty of people in that situation can and have walked away from scenarios where they could have lashed out or "gotten even".

These people don't need a significant part of themselves erased, they need years of therapy.

that's for the people who are still alive, stop resisting the information you are given!
not everything has to work with what you perceive wow (and world!) to be.
have you ever been so tired of things around you that you just want to sleep and have a moment of piece by not being conscious and dont remember your problems? maybe not, but a lot of people do, so its understandable that those noble souls who happen to share a lot of good traits, may want to just forget everything, after all it doesn't matter anymore, what does it matter who helped you or wronged you when its all finished and done?

AND their job is to, as of course many other players pointed out, is to fetch dying souls and deliver it to arbiter so she can decided which covenant suits the soul best.

THE KEY POINT here for you to understand so you can understand the whole picture is the arbitar is the best possible entity to judge the souls, you cant get better than that even if we find out that she is not perfect, she is the closest thing to perfect.

[Rendark]

Because blizzard sucks at writing.

[deviantcultist]

None of the (shown) covenants sacrifices individuality. The Kyrians sacrifice their identity, they still get to stay individuals.

Isn't sacrificing your identity equivalent to killing everything that defines you? Don't see how that's different to losing individuality.

Night Fae are bound to service and from the trailer, we saw how A'ralon was coerced into sacrificing his individuality for the "greater good".

In the Venthyr Kael'thas arc, they are trying to kill everything that defines Kael'thas under the pretext that they are making him "atone".

Maldraxxus doesn't do anything of the sort from what I've seen, but being there is just like being enlisted in the army.

[Minikin]

I've not exactly been keeping up with Beta news but how are weird angels insisting you give up your memories a good guy? Like are they asking? Are they respecting No for an answer?

Because what little I've seen consists of an angel counseling some innate with doubts to "have faith" or something. That doesn't sound like respecting people's concerns.

I'm really concerned because this seems to be the only "good" afterlife, save for one that seems to be most be for nature spirits and the like. Do all good people have to live in a place with a pseudo-religious sounding devotion to abandoning your past?

I would love for someone to tell me I'm wildly misinterpreting limited information and its actually X.

They explain this in the questing.

[Spoilers below] I dont know how to do the spoiler thingy,
Memories are wiped so that when you ferry people you do so without judgement or bias. The Arbiter decides. Because you have a ton of power so it is to take away bad judgement calls.

This is why Devos rebels. However in the end Devos does admit that what she did was wrong.
[Spoiler end]

[formerShandalay]

Because if you go there, you get to carry the souls from all over the universe towards the Arbiter. If one of those souls has done you harm, you might be tempted to dispense a little vigilance justice, or rather... revenge and throw them into the Maw.
To do your job you have to be impartial.


I do think however that could be remedied by simply never sending Kyrians to the world where they came from to fetch souls.
And still care for them a long time after they arrived in Bastion to heal them as much as possible and give them some necessary distance from their former lives.

I also think they will change this rule. They do start thinking about it maybe being wrong during our questing.

[Icelin]

Bastion suffered because Blizzard followed the claims by the fanbase that Order and Lawful Good cannot be fun. (Which is so wrong...) Or maybe it was their own discomfort with religion irl, that got projected into a video game. (Which it's a video game..) I can't explain any other reason why it would not be on par with the other zones. (From what I have seen in the previews) Which was disappointing for me. All I get there is the rip off priest classhall mount the Swolekin.

[tommyhil622]

How about they admit that the whole Shadowlands are a prison and that the Mawsworn, despite being extremists, are making a point about the self-righteous attitude of the Kyrian. From what I've seen, they are unapologetic about their ways and prefer to demonize the "Paragons of Doubt" of the Mawsworn.

The Archon said they'll address the issues after they deal with the Jailer.

[cparle87]

Akunda was the Thunder Lizard and he only took memories he was asked to take by the person in question. It was the weird cult guy who imprisoned him who was stealing people's memories.

But he didn't give them back to the people who lost them after. Like the guy you travelled with to the temple who asked you to send a letter to someone back in Zuldazar. Even after you overthrow the cult guy and you speak to him he still doesn't remember her, and Akunda has no problem with that, apparently.

[LemonDemonGirl]

You want to go to the place where your soul gets eaten?

Well, after Bwonsamdi gets back in control at least lol

[De Lupe]

Isn't sacrificing your identity equivalent to killing everything that defines you? Don't see how that's different to losing individuality.

Night Fae are bound to service and from the trailer, we saw how A'ralon was coerced into sacrificing his individuality for the "greater good".

In the Venthyr Kael'thas arc, they are trying to kill everything that defines Kael'thas under the pretext that they are making him "atone".

Maldraxxus doesn't do anything of the sort from what I've seen, but being there is just like being enlisted in the army.

Except you're ignoring one critical detail; the types of people who go to these realms.

Bastion is a realm for people who lived selfless lives. Everyone there, Uther included, would gladly sacrifice themselves in the service of others. When they arrive, they shed their mortal burdens (the memories) and serve the greater good of farrying souls with unbiased judgement. Uther, if not fractured by Frostmourne, would have willingly done that himself. That's the kind of person Uther was.

Maldraxxus is a realm where might is the law of the land. The people of Maldraxxus thrive on strength; magical, physical, mental, or otherwise. Draka's spent her entire life fighting. She was smaller. She was weaker. She fell ill and had to fight for a cure. But she had an indomitable will that would eventually lead to people twice her size fearing her. If you wind up here, you are in your natural element. You were a soldier in life, not because you were trained to be one, but because that's who you were as a person. That's the kind of person Draka was.

Ardenweald is the cycle of nature and the people who go there have an affinity for the natural world. They understand that they are a part of that cycle and accept that they may be used in whatever way the wilds need them. The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few in the natural cycle. A'ralon wasn't coerced into anything. He was shown the future of the realm. And, being a creature of natural affinity, he understood the severity of the problem. So he made a decision (the same decision Ursoc himself would have made); the needs of Ardenweald outweighed the needs of the souls in his grove. Nature at work. And any who live there would understand it. That's the kind of person Ursoc, and A'ralon, was.

Revendreath, when working correctly (its not right now,) is rehab. If you go there, you are a person who has committed a crime (or many crimes) against others so great that they are a stain on your soul and you must answer for those crimes before you are released back into society. It is your final chance to prove you are worth saving; fail here and it's straight to the maw. You're not told to stop being yourself. You are expected to acknowledge your wrongdoings, accept that they were mistakes, and show a genuine commitment to atoning for them. That's it. It's rehab for salvageable souls. That's the kind of person Kael'thas was.

[deviantcultist]

Except you're ignoring one critical detail; the types of people who go to these realms.

Bastion is a realm for people who lived selfless lives. Everyone there, Uther included, would gladly sacrifice themselves in the service of others. When they arrive, they shed their mortal burdens (the memories) and serve the greater good of farrying souls with unbiased judgement. Uther, if not fractured by Frostmourne, would have willingly done that himself. That's the kind of person Uther was.

Maldraxxus is a realm where might is the law of the land. The people of Maldraxxus thrive on strength; magical, physical, mental, or otherwise. Draka's spent her entire life fighting. She was smaller. She was weaker. She fell ill and had to fight for a cure. But she had an indomitable will that would eventually lead to people twice her size fearing her. If you wind up here, you are in your natural element. You were a soldier in life, not because you were trained to be one, but because that's who you were as a person. That's the kind of person Draka was.

Ardenweald is the cycle of nature and the people who go there have an affinity for the natural world. They understand that they are a part of that cycle and accept that they may be used in whatever way the wilds need them. The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few in the natural cycle. A'ralon wasn't coerced into anything. He was shown the future of the realm. And, being a creature of natural affinity, he understood the severity of the problem. So he made a decision (the same decision Ursoc himself would have made); the needs of Ardenweald outweighed the needs of the souls in his grove. Nature at work. And any who live there would understand it. That's the kind of person Ursoc, and A'ralon, was.

Revendreath, when working correctly (its not right now,) is rehab. If you go there, you are a person who has committed a crime (or many crimes) against others so great that they are a stain on your soul and you must answer for those crimes before you are released back into society. It is your final chance to prove you are worth saving; fail here and it's straight to the maw. You're not told to stop being yourself. You are expected to acknowledge your wrongdoings, accept that they were mistakes, and show a genuine commitment to atoning for them. That's it. It's rehab for salvageable souls. That's the kind of person Kael'thas was.

You make some really nice points here! However, I got a couple of comments to make.

For Ardenweald, it welcomes souls that are attuned with the natural cycle, hence chaotic. Despite that, isn't asking compliance with the "needs of the many" something a more lawful/structured society would enforce?

For Revendreth, in the Kael'thas story, I got a bit of an Illidan "Rejection of the Gift" vibe. It showed that most of the so called sins he was blamed for were things he had nothing to regret about and were part of his individuality.
Lust for revenge, the zeal to protect his people - all of it is connected to his "arrogance". Will it not kill his personality if it was to be surgically removed? Same case may probably apply for Garrosh.

- - - Updated - - -

The Archon said they'll address the issues after they deal with the Jailer.

Is that part of the Uther storyline? Because I believe that's the part I've read.

[Project 501D13R]

The thing is that we're only seeing a small portion of the afterlives in the Shadowlands, there are hundreds of afterlives there. It wouldn't surprise me at all if there was a completely mundane afterlife where all the regular people just chill and live day to day like they did back when they were alive.

[huth]

Isn't sacrificing your identity equivalent to killing everything that defines you? Don't see how that's different to losing individuality.

By being a completely different thing. Losing your individuality means no longer being an individual. Every Kyrian is still an individual, not part of a singular gestalt intelligence. They may not necessarily be the same individual they were before, but they still are one. They lose their old identity, not their sense of self. There's nothing stopping them from building a new identity, either, and it's pretty much expected they do.

Losing individuality comes with a loss of identity, but the inverse is not true, especially if there is no loss of the ability to have an identity, just a loss of a specific one.

Also, being forced to go along with a plan you don't like of is not loss of individuality. It would be a different story if Ara'lon had been brainwashed into happily agreeing with it rather than realising that there is no other option, no matter how little he likes the one at hand.
Kael'thas is not an example, either. They're not trying to remove his individuality, they're trying to convince him to change aspects of his identity.
Identity is not individuality.

- - - Updated - - -

Except you're ignoring one critical detail; the types of people who go to these realms.

Well, the problem is indeed missing a critical detail, but you got the wrong one.

[tommyhil622]

You make some really nice points here! However, I got a couple of comments to make.

For Ardenweald, it welcomes souls that are attuned with the natural cycle, hence chaotic. Despite that, isn't asking compliance with the "needs of the many" something a more lawful/structured society would enforce?

For Revendreth, in the Kael'thas story, I got a bit of an Illidan "Rejection of the Gift" vibe. It showed that most of the so called sins he was blamed for were things he had nothing to regret about and were part of his individuality.
Lust for revenge, the zeal to protect his people - all of it is connected to his "arrogance". Will it not kill his personality if it was to be surgically removed? Same case may probably apply for Garrosh.

- - - Updated - - -



Is that part of the Uther storyline? Because I believe that's the part I've read.

Yea this is part of the Kyrian Covenant but yea it's connected. After you do the dungeon, there's a follow up quest and Archon basically talks about Devos, and goes on a voice acted monologue.

[Jastall]

How about they admit that the whole Shadowlands are a prison and that the Mawsworn, despite being extremists, are making a point about the self-righteous attitude of the Kyrian. From what I've seen, they are unapologetic about their ways and prefer to demonize the "Paragons of Doubt" of the Mawsworn.

You're mistaking your terms a bit. The Forsworn (purple Kyrians) are those that question the system, led by Uther, who's still a good guy, and Devos who serves the Jailer and thus is not. The Mawsworn take it one step further and are the Maw-corrupted Kyrians you see kidnapping Anduin in the cinematic, 100% evil and they serve Helya, the Jailer's patsy, directly.

[kage]

that's for the people who are still alive, stop resisting the information you are given!
not everything has to work with what you perceive wow (and world!) to be.
have you ever been so tired of things around you that you just want to sleep and have a moment of piece by not being conscious and dont remember your problems? maybe not, but a lot of people do, so its understandable that those noble souls who happen to share a lot of good traits, may want to just forget everything, after all it doesn't matter anymore, what does it matter who helped you or wronged you when its all finished and done?

AND their job is to, as of course many other players pointed out, is to fetch dying souls and deliver it to arbiter so she can decided which covenant suits the soul best.

THE KEY POINT here for you to understand so you can understand the whole picture is the arbitar is the best possible entity to judge the souls, you cant get better than that even if we find out that she is not perfect, she is the closest thing to perfect.

Updated: It's not refusing information if you didn't get to the comment that explained Uther's mitigating factors in detail. A bunch of these guys were arguing about the philosophy of the self and not all of them were polite. So, I stepped out for some dinner.

Now, I'm kind of mad at his superiors for sending him out like that. Uther had some clear mitigating factors but he's the one who's going to have to shoulder the responsibility of those actions. Because this is a story and you know Arthas will come calling eventually, that's just how stories work.

As for that some people would like to forget their trauma... No shit. I never said they didn't, I was concerned that they might have been forcing the one's who wanted their memories into it, which as you pointed out I already learned wasn't the case (my "thank god" was on the 1st page).

I'm not here to debate the ethic of the act of erasing memories itself. As far as I'm concerned, if it doesn't hurt anyone else & their adults, they can do whatever the hell they want an its not my business.

[deviantcultist]

You're mistaking your terms a bit. The Forsworn (purple Kyrians) are those that question the system, led by Uther, who's still a good guy, and Devos who serves the Jailer and thus is not. The Mawsworn take it one step further and are the Maw-corrupted Kyrians you see kidnapping Anduin in the cinematic, 100% evil and they serve Helya, the Jailer's patsy, directly.

You are right. I was referring to the Forworn, the ones led by Uther and Devos.

[kage]

You are right. I was referring to the Forworn, the ones led by Uther and Devos.

Thank you, all of you. I was so bummed by what seemed to be going on with the Kyrians & couldn't find a definitive answer to my questions. It was to the point I was starting to consider dropping WoW, after like 16 years of playing. Having all this clarified has been a real help!

[razorpax]

Why? What was wrong with punishing Arthas?

It wasn’t his place to do so

The role of the kyrian is not to judge but to carry out the judgement of the arbiter and by allowing his own feelings to interfere with that he disturbed the balance. However I think he was questioning it until the paragon whispered in his ear.

- - - Updated - - -

They don't exist.

- - - Updated - - -



If you lose your memories, you lose your personality. Enjoy your weird cult.

You saying losing your memories makes you lose personality shows you don’t even know how the system works

Btw Devos is the highest form of ascended and our soulbinds are similar...interesting that they have names

- - - Updated - - -

Nothing *made* Uther betray his duty but Uther.

I've known a fair few of people who live with trauma. Plenty of people in that situation can and have walked away from scenarios where they could have lashed out or "gotten even".

These people don't need a significant part of themselves erased, they need years of therapy.

If Uther didn’t want revenge then Arthas would have been judged accordingly and accurately. Instead Devos used him and in a misguided sense of duty gave him the choice and when Uther began to waver she told him to do it

[gcsmith]

They don't exist.

- - - Updated - - -



If you lose your memories, you lose your personality. Enjoy your weird cult.

Except people with Amnesia still have personality... and this is a refined process, not a medical issue.

- - - Updated - - -

How about they admit that the whole Shadowlands are a prison and that the Mawsworn, despite being extremists, are making a point about the self-righteous attitude of the Kyrian. From what I've seen, they are unapologetic about their ways and prefer to demonize the "Paragons of Doubt" of the Mawsworn.

I mean, the mawsworn allign themselves with the Jailor, a known maniac evil who tortures souls and strips them of their form to forge weapons and crazy monsters... Yeah I say they're right to be demonized.