i miss the "medieval" fantasy of WoW

[StillMcfuu]

And it wasn't pure or heavy medieval fantasy either really. As many people mentioned here...gunpowder, canons and bombs and explosives existed even back in Warcraft RTS games. It was always mix between medieval and steampunk with some technology here and there really.

Which is all fantasy... it's dark fantasy, the same as Warhammer.

[Velshin]

Which is all fantasy... it's dark fantasy, the same as Warhammer.

No it is not dark fantasy...do you even know what steampunk means? it was like FF6 if you ever played that game. It had a mix of medieval sword and board style and guns and canons and some tech stuff like airships and stuff like that.

[Frontenac]

Even if you take the most medieval race in WoW, Stormwind humans, there is not much of anything truly medieval about it. Let's just ignore the aesthetics and magic. What would a truly medieval Kingdom of Stormwind be like?

The society would be divided in Three Estates : Clergy, Nobility and the Third Estate (common folks). The clergy of the Church of the Light would have a much greater role to play, and the Archbishop or a bishop would be in every royal council. The Archbishop and the King could even clash from time to time. There would be a church in every little town and hamlet of the Kingdom, with an abbot playing a preheminent role. The power of the King would reside on the belief that he and his familly were chosen by the Light for that task. As for the nobility, it would be the age of feudalism. Each noble would have lands of his own in exchange for his loyalty, with the power to levy his own army (no big central army like we see in the game). Some nobles could even be richer than the King. The Duke of Westfall, which is supposed to be the bread basket of the Kingdom, would have been the most powerful lord of the realm (during its prosperity). What role do the nobles play in the game? On that regard, they did a better job with Kul Tiras. As for the common people, well let's say that they would enjoy far less freedom than what is shown in game. They would not own their own farms, for one. They could even be serfs. When I look at some farmsteads in Elwynn or Westfall, I feel like I'm in an episode of The Little House in the Prairies...

The Kingdom would be far more rural and far less urban. Stormwind would not play the central role it plays, especially in the political domain. The King would have a palace there but would not live in it most of the time. He would move its court around the realm, often living in his vassals castles, to ensure their loyalty and to see that everything is fine. Cities would be there for service and trade. They would be far less tidy too. Forget those clean cobblestoned streets. There would be no central authority. In the countryside, most of the houses would have thatched roofs with a hole to let the smoke out and no windows (glass was not a common commodity). The house would be on one level with dirt floors and no rooms.

As for technology, cannons could be used if the setting was very late Middle Ages (gunpowder only began to be used in the end of the Hundred Years War, which was at the very end of the Middle Ages). Stormwind should be using mangonels, scorpions and trebuchets (which are unseen in the game). Forget about ships able to cross the ocean, and those using wheels like we got in WotLK.

So, what is really medieval about Stormwind? Sure, it has castles, walled towns and knights in shining armour. But for the rest, there is not much that is medieval. Game of Thrones does it much better. So if Stormwind, which is the most medieval kingdom in the game is not that medieval to begin with, imagine when you add all the other races, some of which having barely left the stone age, while others are even beyond our own time! Warcraft has always been only very superficialy medieval since Warcraft 2.

[Katchii]

Medieval settings are based off the middle ages, typically the early to middle periods,. There was no gunpowder, guns, electricity, amphibious machines, flying, and such.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gunpow...he_Middle_Ages

Gunpowder existed in the middle ages, as did cannons and guns.

[Frontenac]

I didn't say it was... I even brought up the Exodar in my comment.

TBC Dreanei were more fantasy than sci fi, their technology was magic, not straight up just technology as it had become. Portals to other worlds fall very much in fantasy as it does in Sci-Fi, especially portals powered by souls. Tempest Keep is part of a shattered world, floating platforms and whatnot doesn't push it into sci-fi. It was created by Naaru which were ethereal beings of light, it was all very much magic/fantasy.

It all skirts the line of sci-fi, but isn't fully into the sci-fi side of it. WoW still isn't very much into Sci-Fi as a whole, but it's pushed more than I would prefer.

Yeah, in modern fantasy settings, magic has become an observable, concrete form of energy, and so it fell into the realm of "science". Mages, wizards and the like are depicted as scientists who are learning to harness that energy. They would even use it in technology. And so magic will wear the trappings of sci-fi. Previously, magic was closer to religion. Magic was simply the art of conjuring spirits and demons to do what you want or tell you forbidden knowledge, and mages were closer to pagan priests and devil worshippers.

[Katchii]

You have no idea what you're talking about. "Planets" are not sci-fi. This is such a reddit-brained view on genre.

Traveling to them is very much sci-fi though. The fact they exist is not, but that's not what they were talking about. We literally traveled to different planets and dimensions in Warcraft 2 and 3.

WoW has never been a medieval game, it's always been a fantasy game with a lot of medieval inspiration and settings.

[VinceVega]

Wasn't Warcraft always mor science fantasy? Like star wars just heavier on the fanatasy?
Never got a big medieval vibe from it... like... ever
Well maybe except the first few levels as a human. Every other race not so much. We literally play aliens and stone people turned flesh.
The only indiginous races are trolls and elves.

[Florena]

Warcraft was only strictly 'medieval fantasy' in the original Warcraft game.

WC 2 added submarines/flying machines. WC 3 did away with subs but had gyrocoptors still.

WoW had Gnomeregarn, the Deeprun Tram and gnome/goblin tech in general.

WoW has a lot of medieval fantasy at its core but hasn't been strictly that since WC 2.

[StillMcfuu]

No it is not dark fantasy...do you even know what steampunk means? it was like FF6 if you ever played that game. It had a mix of medieval sword and board style and guns and canons and some tech stuff like airships and stuff like that.

Steampunk doesn't mean "science fiction" outright. It's an element as much as it's a genre, and as a genre it definitely leans more fantasy.

Consider a movie like "Bright", that is a straight up Fantasy/Dark Fantasy, even though its set in modern times with modern technology, it's fantasy, way more so than it would be considered science fiction.

I'd argue that the fantastical elements of steampunk, especially when set in non-modern situations definitely leans way more fantasy than science fiction anyway. And even looking at actual history, guns and gunpowder like devices were used during the last 200 years of the Middle Ages anyway. And there are plenty of greek and roman inventions in their everyday life that border on steam punk anyway.
I'd further argue that steampunk is the distinct lack of futurism that science fiction basically requires to be considered science fiction. Steampunk is more an alt-history or even magical, it's an awkward mix of an old technology to work in an almost modern fashion; but I'd say that a major element of Steampunk is that this technology doesn't work in a modern way and doesn't actually "replace or exceed" what we see now in modern times. Steampunk is the apex of what we could do if we never moved on to computers, advanced fuels, metals, etc... It is it's own fantasy world, distinctly stuck as being "in the past."

[SirBeef]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gunpow...he_Middle_Ages

Gunpowder existed in the middle ages, as did cannons and guns.

Right middle to late. Typical medieval fantasy settings do not include guns or cannons, let alone many of the other stuff in the Warcraft universe.

[Velshin]

Steampunk doesn't mean "science fiction" outright. It's an element as much as it's a genre, and as a genre it definitely leans more fantasy.

Consider a movie like "Bright", that is a straight up Fantasy/Dark Fantasy, even though its set in modern times with modern technology, it's fantasy, way more so than it would be considered science fiction.

I'd argue that the fantastical elements of steampunk, especially when set in non-modern situations definitely leans way more fantasy than science fiction anyway. And even looking at actual history, guns and gunpowder like devices were used during the last 200 years of the Middle Ages anyway. And there are plenty of greek and roman inventions in their everyday life that border on steam punk anyway.
I'd further argue that steampunk is the distinct lack of futurism that science fiction basically requires to be considered science fiction. Steampunk is more an alt-history or even magical, it's an awkward mix of an old technology to work in an almost modern fashion; but I'd say that a major element of Steampunk is that this technology doesn't work in a modern way and doesn't actually "replace or exceed" what we see now in modern times. Steampunk is the apex of what we could do if we never moved on to computers, advanced fuels, metals, etc... It is it's own fantasy world, distinctly stuck as being "in the past."

I didn't fucking say steampunk is science fiction where the fuck did you get that idea?

Steampunk is an era of....even the fucking name makes it way more obvious.... Steam? where machine that works with oils and fuel and diesels and gunpowders. You seems confused and mixing cyber sci fi era to steampunk.

Steampunk is the same era of gothic castlevania dracula, and Bloodborne kind of setting it is not sci fi at all....I just can't believe we have still people can't understand what steampunk is...

[huth]

I'd further argue that steampunk is the distinct lack of futurism that science fiction basically requires to be considered science fiction.

It doesn't. Science Fiction isn't fiction about the future, it's fiction about 'science' or more accurately, about discoveries or inventions and how they affect the world or the adventures of those involved. A story about cavemen discovering fire would be science fiction, but clearly not even remotely futuristic. Meanwhile, Star Wars is still Fantasy because the story isn't about all the super advanced technology they have, but about people using magic and swords to fight each other while being ineffectually missed by guys with guns.

- - - Updated - - -

Steampunk is an era of....even the fucking name makes it way more obvious.... Steam? where machine that works with oils and fuel and diesels and gunpowders. You seems confused and mixing cyber sci fi era to steampunk.

Era isn't the right word. It doesn't refer to a time period, but a certain style. It may lean towards SciFi or Fantasy depending on how realistic the machines are and how important their existence is to the story as well, and whether or not more fantastic elements are incorporated. If they use words like Phlogiston, you're probably looking at a more fantasy-like Steampunk setting.

[StillMcfuu]

I didn't fucking say steampunk is science fiction where the fuck did you get that idea?

Steampunk is an era of....even the fucking name makes it way more obvious.... Steam? where machine that works with oils and fuel and diesels and gunpowders. You seems confused and mixing cyber sci fi era to steampunk.

Steampunk is the same era of gothic castlevania dracula, and Bloodborne kind of setting it is not sci fi at all....I just can't believe we have still people can't understand what steampunk is...

You're arguing that wow isn't dark fantasy and is steam punk exclusively. Its not, steam punk is an element, dark fantasy can still have steam punk elements. Wow is not exclusively steam punk, not even close. Its barely steam punk. I can't believe you don't know what steam punk is even though you are arguing vehemently for it.

- - - Updated - - -

It doesn't. Science Fiction isn't fiction about the future, it's fiction about 'science' or more accurately, about discoveries or inventions and how they affect the world or the adventures of those involved. A story about cavemen discovering fire would be science fiction, but clearly not even remotely futuristic. Meanwhile, Star Wars is still Fantasy because the story isn't about all the super advanced technology they have, but about people using magic and swords to fight each other while being ineffectually missed by guys with guns.

- - - Updated - - -



Era isn't the right word. It doesn't refer to a time period, but a certain style. It may lean towards SciFi or Fantasy depending on how realistic the machines are and how important their existence is to the story as well, and whether or not more fantastic elements are incorporated. If they use words like Phlogiston, you're probably looking at a more fantasy-like Steampunk setting.

Science fiction almost exclusively involves futurism of some sort. Futurism doesn't meant exclusively science or technology, things like 1984, Brave New World, Jericho or TWD will be scifi to an extent.

fiction based on imagined future scientific or technological advances and major social or environmental changes, frequently portraying space or time travel and life on other planets.

[Velshin]

You're arguing that wow isn't dark fantasy and is steam punk exclusively. Its not, steam punk is an element, dark fantasy can still have steam punk elements. Wow is not exclusively steam punk, not even close. Its barely steam punk. I can't believe you don't know what steam punk is even though you are arguing vehemently for it.

- - - Updated - - -



Science fiction almost exclusively involves futurism of some sort.

I never said it is steampunk exclusively... I even wrote it above that is is a mix between steampunk and medieval setting....

[Triceron]

Science fiction almost exclusively involves futurism of some sort. Futurism doesn't meant exclusively science or technology, things like 1984, Brave New World, Jericho or TWD will be scifi to an extent.

But it's not.

"Steampunk is a retrofuturistic subgenre of science fiction that incorporates technology and aesthetic designs inspired by 19th-century industrial steam-powered machinery."

Steampunk technically is a type of science fiction. Science fiction just happens to be set in the future more often than not, just like how fantasy is generally set in historic periods more often than not. Harry Potter is still considered fantasy even though it doesn't have a historic setting. Genres like these aren't bound by any given time period.

The difference between Science Fiction and straight up Fantasy is the in-universe explanation that the fantastical elements of the story/universe are explained through the use of technology. In a science fiction setting where 'magic' is also present (like Star Wars) it begins to cross into the Science Fantasy category.

[StillMcfuu]

I never said it is steampunk exclusively... I even wrote it above that is is a mix between steampunk and medieval setting....

Then why disagree with me initially?

- - - Updated - - -

But it's not.

"Steampunk is a retrofuturistic subgenre of science fiction that incorporates technology and aesthetic designs inspired by 19th-century industrial steam-powered machinery."

Steampunk technically is a type of science fiction. Science fiction just happens to be set in the future more often than not, just like how fantasy is generally set in historic periods more often than not. Harry Potter is still considered fantasy even though it doesn't have a historic setting. Genres like these aren't bound by any given time period.

The difference between Science Fiction and straight up Fantasy is the in-universe explanation that the fantastical elements of the story/universe are explained through the use of technology. In a science fiction setting where 'magic' is also present (like Star Wars) it begins to cross into the Science Fantasy category.

The Steam Punk definition even includes "retroFuturistic". A lot of what I was saying about Steam Punk was more my feelings on it. Some hard steampunk I'd consider more sci-fi but a lot, including the elements in WoW is very much fantasy.

Bolded: I don't disagree. You aren't countering anything I said, I agree. Even what you quoted from me agrees with what you are saying.

[Jastall]

Can you give me an actual argument for why/at what point the existence of modern technology should be an exclusion criterion for whether or not we're dealing with a medieval fantasy setting?

Inter-city subways piercing through mountains, mech suits, lasers, shrink rays, jatpacks, teleporters, fully automatic firearms, autonomous and sometimes sentient robots, advanced chemical weapons, and genetic experimentation.

Literally all of this is in Classic, in case the point is missed.

[DeuZWw]

I Kinda agree here.

But i'm fine with intergalactic stuff happening.
But i miss stories being more centered around "down to earth", stuff happening in Stormwind.

Defias storyline was a very good change of pace back in Cataclysm. Battling a kinda of Civil War of Bandits? Sign me in.

They really lost an opportunity to make a Good War story in BFA, focused too much into greater evils.

I don't want to always be the chosen one, or fight the Evil Chosen God Avatar powered by Forces of greatest Evil.
I would be fine by just Taking down the Scarlet Crusade, the Defias, or some cool organization made by Lesser Races, with Common abilities that came together to overthrow Azeroth.

we have SO MUCH land in azeroth that could be used for Raid, boss fights and stuff. it's kinda a shame they waste time design a new Raid when they could just put us in any place in azeroth.

i got zero interest into Shadowlands places. i expected from the trailer, for it to be a "Reverse-Azeroth", and we would see a twisted azeroth instead of all these new areas.
Will just end up lvling content, and instancing everything.

[Katchii]

Right middle to late. Typical medieval fantasy settings do not include guns or cannons, let alone many of the other stuff in the Warcraft universe.

While true, in medieval settings where there are technological geniuses or savants and such, as in WoW with Gnomes and Goblins, "advanced" technology for the time like gunpowder, cannons and simple guns wouldn't necessarily be out of place because those technologies DID exist at that time.

[huth]

While true, in medieval settings where there are technological geniuses or savants and such, as in WoW with Gnomes and Goblins, "advanced" technology for the time like gunpowder, cannons and simple guns wouldn't necessarily be out of place because those technologies DID exist at that time.

That it's entirely based on pop culture versions of "medieval" was already clear pages ago. Gunpowder(and guns) are late High middle age/early Late, while full plate, which commonly features in so-called medieval fantasy, was mostly Renessaince and not developed until shortly before the end of the middle ages.
And then the Alliance goes and features regular footmen equipped in it, which would have been a completely ridiculous proposal in the real world.