If they made a new class in the future, what would it be?

[TheRevenantHero]

Race and Class are just titles, and they aren't consistent at all.

Lore-wise, Human Death Knight and Forsaken are the same designation - Undead Humans.
Lore-wise, Human, Gilnean and Kul Tiran are the same designation - Human.

Yet the game treats this VERY differently, because DK shows that a Undead Human should look like while Forsaken exists with completely different looks and racials.
The game does not treat races or classes equally in this fashion, and there are no rules that define what can or can't be a race or a class.

That is why this isn't an argument to say you can't have a Dragon as both a playable race and class. It's perfectly possible, because we have the same thing apply to existing races and classes. Forsaken has no reason to be its own 'Race' if DK shows that being undead should still be the same race of origin. Kul Tiran should not have any different racials or looks considering Jaina and Daelin were both Proudmoores who look absolutely like any other Stormwind Human.

Races are simply defined however Blizzard wishes to. There is no reason why Wildhammer Dwarf shares the same look and racials as the Ironforge Dwarf while Dark Iron gets a completely new set or racials and customizations. There is no reason why you can choose to be pale-skin human Death Knight and not a pale-skin human Forsaken. These are just game mechanics treating things differently.

The manner in which an individual is made into a Forsaken is far different than how people are made into death knights. To imply it's the same thing is laughable and shows you really don't understand how the lore works regarding those two things.

As for dragons, it's a completely different story. Necromancy can turn someone into an undead. You have to be BORN a dragon. That's the biggest thing separating the two. Dragons aren't a result of a magical artifact like Frostmourne. They are a full-fledged SPECIES on their own. Which is the biggest reason they simply cannot be a class. To suggest that your class can be "dragon" is utterly idiotic. It's the definition of apples and oranges. You can be made into an undead. you have to be born a dragon.

Dragonsworn are specifically meant to NOT be dragons. So your example of saying Dragonsworn is a dragon only class is as dumb as trying to say dragon can be a class on its own.

[Triceron]

To suggest that your class can be "dragon" is utterly idiotic. It's the definition of apples and oranges. You can be made into an undead. you have to be born a dragon.

Dragonsworn are specifically meant to NOT be dragons. So your example of saying Dragonsworn is a dragon only class is as dumb as trying to say dragon can be a class on its own.

You can think of it this way -

- There is a new Dragonsworn Hero Class that is only available to Dragons. This class has abilities exclusive to being a Dragon, such as a Dragon form or Dragon's Breath or the unique use of Time(Sand)/Dream/Life(Restorative Flame) powers that Dragons have.
- There is a new Dragon race that only has access to one class, Dragonsworn. They would be existing Dragons who choose to serve the Alliance and Horde in times of need. These are not Newborn dragons, and do not start at level 1.
- Dragons choose one permanent humanoid form they wish to represent themselves, including access to Racials.
- This is not a 'Dragon Class'. This is a Dragonsworn class exclusive to Dragons.


Would this make sense? I am fine if you disagree that Dragons should be playable, but I wish to address your concerns of 'Dragons can't be a Class!' and keep the arguments clean and concise, rather than circling around to 'Dragons are Sterile!' and 'Dragon's aren't a Class' as if they are major reasons why Dragons shouldn't be playable. I want to focus on actual concerns.

There are plenty of people out there who hate Pandaren as a playable race, and I'm completely fine with that too. However if their reasons are 'it's a Kung Fu Panda ripoff' then that's not a legitimate concern, considering Pandaren predated Kung Fu Panda by years and aren't really based on Po. I prefer to focus on legitimate concerns of subjectivity. A more concise argument could be that Pandaren are too whimsical/comical like Kung Fu Panda, and that could be legitimately discussed.

So far the arguments I've seen seem superfluous. Dragons are sterile - so are our Characters, really, since our characters will never bear children that would be recognized by the lore. Dragon's aren't a Class - Well they could still be added as a race that is mutually exclusive to a new class. These are more like excuses rather than concerns.

[TheRevenantHero]

You can think of it this way -

- There is a new Dragonsworn Hero Class that is only available to Dragons. This class has abilities exclusive to being a Dragon, such as a Dragon form or Dragon's Breath or the unique use of Time(Sand)/Dream/Life(Restorative Flame) powers that Dragons have.
- There is a new Dragon race that only has access to one class, Dragonsworn. They would be existing Dragons who choose to serve the Alliance and Horde in times of need. These are not Newborn dragons, and do not start at level 1.
- Dragons choose one permanent humanoid form they wish to represent themselves, including access to Racials.
- This is not a 'Dragon Class'. This is a Dragonsworn class exclusive to Dragons.


Would this make sense? I am fine if you disagree that Dragons should be playable, but I wish to address your concerns of 'Dragons can't be a Class!' and keep the arguments clean and concise, rather than circling around to 'Dragons are Sterile!' and 'Dragon's aren't a Class' as if they are major reasons why Dragons shouldn't be playable. I want to focus on actual concerns.

There are plenty of people out there who hate Pandaren as a playable race, and I'm completely fine with that too. However if their reasons are 'it's a Kung Fu Panda ripoff' then that's not a legitimate concern, considering Pandaren predated Kung Fu Panda by years and aren't really based on Po. I prefer to focus on legitimate concerns of subjectivity.

What you're suggesting is ridiculous. Dragonsworn in the RPG were specifically not dragons imbued with draconic power to be an emissary for said dragons. So to make dragonsworn restricted to dragons is dumb. They're sworn to themselves? Think about how ridiculous that sounds for a second.

And if a dragon has a mortal form, they don't get their racials. It's a glamour. they're still a dragon. That's another reason making them playable is ridiculous. Dragons are scarce in the world. They're not a class because races can't be a class. To say otherwise is to seriously fuck with the established pattern Blizzard has. Demon Hunters aren't demons. They're still night and blood elves. They're just imbued with demonic power.

A draconic class where you choose your race and then are given power by a dragon would be fine. That's exactly what the dragonsworn were in the TTRPG. Making dragons a race and a class at the same time is asinine and doesn't fit in at all with how WoW is structured.

[Triceron]

They're not a class because races can't be a class.

I think we're done here if you wish to continue attacking the strawman.

[Th3Scourge]

so you chose to ignore the cosmic powers chart from the chronicles?

Yes.

There is no differentiation gameplay wise. Lore concepts do not translate to gameplay

[TheRevenantHero]

I think we're done here if you wish to continue attacking the strawman.

You very clearly have no idea what a strawman is if you're going to accuse me of that. Just because you refuse to accept my point doesn't mean I'm wrong and it definitely doesn't mean I'm using a strawman. There isn't a single other part of the game where a race is also a class. Dragons can't be a class because they're already a race. Period. The idea put forward by you and Teriz suggesting that dragons can be a class AND a race goes against the structure of WoW. Players have a race and they have a class. They don't get both simultaneously. Your idea simply does not work with the structure of WoW in any shape or form.

[Teriz]

What you're suggesting is ridiculous. Dragonsworn in the RPG were specifically not dragons imbued with draconic power to be an emissary for said dragons. So to make dragonsworn restricted to dragons is dumb. They're sworn to themselves? Think about how ridiculous that sounds for a second.

And if a dragon has a mortal form, they don't get their racials. It's a glamour. they're still a dragon. That's another reason making them playable is ridiculous. Dragons are scarce in the world. They're not a class because races can't be a class. To say otherwise is to seriously fuck with the established pattern Blizzard has. Demon Hunters aren't demons. They're still night and blood elves. They're just imbued with demonic power.

A draconic class where you choose your race and then are given power by a dragon would be fine. That's exactly what the dragonsworn were in the TTRPG. Making dragons a race and a class at the same time is asinine and doesn't fit in at all with how WoW is structured.

Yeah, but considering that Dragonsworn in the TTRPG was a prestige class that was highly dependent on your base class, Blizzard going with a dragon race/class combo makes far more sense (and would be more popular).

[Triceron]

You very clearly have no idea what a strawman is if you're going to accuse me of that. Just because you refuse to accept my point doesn't mean I'm wrong and it definitely doesn't mean I'm using a strawman. There isn't a single other part of the game where a race is also a class. Dragons can't be a class because they're already a race. Period. The idea put forward by you and Teriz suggesting that dragons can be a class AND a race goes against the structure of WoW. Players have a race and they have a class. They don't get both simultaneously. Your idea simply does not work with the structure of WoW in any shape or form.

It's a strawman because I already explained clearly that you can have a new Class AND a new Race that are mutually exclusive to each other

At no point did I say Dragons are a Class.

That you are still arguing that Dragons can not be a class shows you are still arguing with yourself. And whatever else you said above is more or less projection. Just letting you know.

Players have a race and they have a class. They don't get both simultaneously.

Yes, and I explained you would have a Dragonsworn class and a Dragon race. I don't know how you can turn that back into 'Dragons can't be a class' when the class is clearly Dragonsworn.

You are free to use another name, but I am using Dragonsworn because it's what's commonly recognized as a Dragon-themed class. Take it or leave it, otherwise I see no legitimate concerns here, just semantics.

And if a dragon has a mortal form, they don't get their racials. It's a glamour. they're still a dragon.

Yes, you're still a Dragon. A Dragon can choose to change their shape, and can choose to represent that shape to the fullest, including adopting racials which are just preferences to a Dragon. The ability to Berserk like a Troll? Shapeshift into a Worgen form? Use Rocketboots like a Goblin? Those are just extensions of a Dragon's innate power and their choice to represent a mortal form. There's no limit to what a Dragon is actually capable of, and the racials that come with the forms is just their choice to 'fit in' as best they can through actions beyond glamour.

The alternative is giving every Dragon their own racials, but I think that'd be needless complexity to what should be a straight-forward abstraction of mechanics.

[Teriz]

You very clearly have no idea what a strawman is if you're going to accuse me of that. Just because you refuse to accept my point doesn't mean I'm wrong and it definitely doesn't mean I'm using a strawman. There isn't a single other part of the game where a race is also a class. Dragons can't be a class because they're already a race. Period. The idea put forward by you and Teriz suggesting that dragons can be a class AND a race goes against the structure of WoW. Players have a race and they have a class. They don't get both simultaneously. Your idea simply does not work with the structure of WoW in any shape or form.

Actually game mechanics wise, you'd pick your race then you'd pick the dragon class. So yeah it would really be no different than choosing any other class in the game.

In addition, like when you choose a demon hunter or a DK, you should get specific appearance options like dragon horn, maybe draconic eyes, scales on the skin, etc.

[TheRevenantHero]

It's a strawman because I already explained clearly that you can have a new Class AND a new Race that are mutually exclusive to each other

At no point did I say Dragons are a Class.

That you are still arguing that Dragons can not be a class shows you are still arguing with yourself. And whatever else you said above is more or less projection. Just letting you know.




Yes, and I explained you would have a Dragonsworn class and a Dragon race. I don't know how you can turn that back into 'Dragons can't be a class' when the class is clearly Dragonsworn.

You are free to use another name, but I am using Dragonsworn because it's what's commonly recognized as a Dragon-themed class. Take it or leave it, otherwise I see no legitimate concerns here, just semantics.



Yes, you're still a Dragon. A Dragon can choose to change their shape, and can choose to represent that shape to the fullest, including adopting racials which are just preferences to a Dragon. The ability to Berserk like a Troll? Shapeshift into a Worgen form? Use Rocketboots like a Goblin? Those are just extensions of a Dragon's innate power and their choice to represent a mortal form. There's no limit to what a Dragon is actually capable of, and the racials that come with the forms is just their choice to 'fit in' as best they can through actions beyond glamour.

The alternative is giving every Dragon their own racials, but I think that'd be needless complexity to what should be a straight-forward abstraction of mechanics.

And I'll say again, dragons should NEVER be a playable race. In lore they're getting closer to extinction so there's really not many dragons left. As a result, making dragons playable would make absolutely no sense. A class like dragonsworn would literally be any other race. Why would a dragon become a dragonsworn if they're already a dragon?

- - - Updated - - -

Actually game mechanics wise, you'd pick your race then you'd pick the dragon class. So yeah it would really be no different than choosing any other class in the game.

In addition, like when you choose a demon hunter or a DK, you should get specific appearance options like dragon horn, maybe draconic eyes, scales on the skin, etc.

LMFAO NO. The dragon aspects are literally the only dragons in lore to have draconic features even in their humanoid form. Lesser dragons, like Chromie, just appear as the race they decided to turn into. Dragon isn't and never will be a class. Dragonsworn, dragon knight, dragoon...whatever you want to call it, those are dragon THEMED classes but would only be a fraction of a dragon's power.

- - - Updated - - -

Yeah, but considering that Dragonsworn in the TTRPG was a prestige class that was highly dependent on your base class, Blizzard going with a dragon race/class combo makes far more sense (and would be more popular).

All that means is that dragonsworn would be a hero class like DK and DH. It would be handled the same way the other two hero classes are. Dragons themselves isn't a class and absolutely can't become a class. Draconic themed classes is different as the player isn't a dragon, they would be imbued with some of a dragon's power similar to how death knights were imbued with a small piece of the Lich King's power.

[Teriz]

LMFAO NO. The dragon aspects are literally the only dragons in lore to have draconic features even in their humanoid form. Lesser dragons, like Chromie, just appear as the race they decided to turn into.

And before Legion, Illidan was the only demon hunter with wings and horns.

All that means is that dragonsworn would be a hero class like DK and DH. It would be handled the same way the other two hero classes are. Dragons themselves isn't a class and absolutely can't become a class. Draconic themed classes is different as the player isn't a dragon, they would be imbued with some of a dragon's power similar to how death knights were imbued with a small piece of the Lich King's power.

Do you have an example of that in any playable form in any of Blizzard's video games?

[Triceron]

And I'll say again, dragons should NEVER be a playable race. In lore they're getting closer to extinction so there's really not many dragons left. As a result, making dragons playable would make absolutely no sense.

It doesn't make sense to you. Right now.

It makes sense if you consider you have no clue what a Dragon's motivations might entail and that Blizzard could absolutely make it happen. Like I said, we could be arguing about how Death Knights should not be playable because they work for the Scourge and the Scourge will always be uncontrollable, but we have very clear reasons how and why it happened. The arguments against Dragons are based on a clear lack of information, and that's all. They don't make sense because the lore hasn't been written yet.

We could talk about who might be the next Lich King. One can argue that it makes no sense to have a new Lich King because the Helm of Domination was destroyed, but we all know that's nothing more than a technicality. A new Helm could be forged, a new Jailer of the Damned could be chosen. It could absolutely be discussed despite whatever lack of sense one would imply from, simply, a lack of imagination.

I can understand the sentiment that Dragons should not be playable, but I don't buy it for the reasons you're explaining here. These are merely excuse-level concerns. We already have races on the brink of extinction perfectly playable. Most of the races we have access to are limited to being refugees or subraces. Once populous races like Night Elves had most of their population completely decimated in BFA. Void Elves should not even be playable considering only a handful should ever exist in the lore, not even enough to populate a small town.

Extinction is not an issue if it hasn't affected other race.

Consider that Blizzard can write in ways to reverse the sterile nature of Dragons at any point REGARDLESS of a playable race.

A class like dragonsworn would literally be any other race. Why would a dragon become a dragonsworn if they're already a dragon?

It's just a moniker for the class. Again, I said you can call it anything you like. Dragon Knight, Dragoon, Guardian, pick your poison. Same way we can talk about Tinkers and we all know what we're talking about, and it's not an Engineer class. The official name could be anything like Mechanic, Tinkerer, Artificer, and it would be little different.

I'm not quite sure if you're even reading before making your arguments, you seem to only cherry pick what you want to argue and not listen to the explanations laid out before you. You're literally going in circles with your arguments without regarding that I've actually addressed your issues.

[Teriz]

So while we're focused on the primary flights; Bronze, Red, Green, Black, Blue, what about other dragon flights like Netherwing, Storm, and Twilight? Storm might be too close to Shaman, but Netherwing and Twilight might be interesting. I messed around with Alexstraza on HotS, and yeah it really is an enjoyable style of gameplay. Blizzard could certainly build a solid class around it.

[Revamp Man]

And before Legion, Illidan was the only demon hunter with wings and horns.



Do you have an example of that in any playable form in any of Blizzard's video games?

"hey guys HotS had a DH before WoW launched therefore we need the new class to be in it as well"

why is it a requirement?? Especially when we keep getting new lore??

treating the classes like a kinda of checklist system and going "sorry dragonsworn your number 42 we are currently taking number 13" is dumb and you know it

"but muh dragons would be more popular i swear just look at heroes"
as much as blizzard likes shitting on lore they dont take it to the extreme of "this single dragon now has enough dragons to become not only a class but a race as well because it now knows how to shapeshift and even though that breaks the race system we currently have we will do it because its obviously more popular than a player emulating dragon abilities and we based this on.....crap jerry figure it out"

also we have cards in hearthstone where non dragons are either buffed or they buff the use of dragon cards....it is a blizzard game yeah??

- - - Updated - - -

It's just a moniker for the class. Again, I said you can call it anything you like. Dragon Knight, Dragoon, Guardian, pick your poison. Same way we can talk about Tinkers and we all know what we're talking about, and it's not an Engineer class. The official name could be anything like Mechanic, Tinkerer, Artificer, and it would be little different.

I'm not quite sure if you're even reading before making your arguments, you seem to only cherry pick what you want to argue and not listen to the explanations laid out before you. You're literally going in circles with your arguments without regarding that I've actually addressed your issues.

we cant call them those though because theres no basis for those names
you see if the class looks like a dragonsworn
walks like a dragonsworn
plays like a dragonsworn
well it cant be called a dragonsworn because thats not how dragonsworn works so we can call it something else
but we cant call it something else because theres no basis for it

- - - Updated - - -

btw guys using HotS we have a basis for a night warrior class

[Teriz]

"hey guys HotS had a DH before WoW launched therefore we need the new class to be in it as well"

why is it a requirement?? Especially when we keep getting new lore??

Demon Hunters were from WC3, which predates WoW. And despite getting tons of new lore, Blizzard still retconned old lore and dismantled the spec of an existing class to bring Demon hunters into WoW. If Blizzard were interested in creating brand new, never before seen concepts, why not just create an original demon-based class that has nothing to do with Illidan? Why not create a completely new death class? You really don't believe that Blizzard couldn't come up with ANY death class concept that could fit Shadowlands do you?

treating the classes like a kinda of checklist system and going "sorry dragonsworn your number 42 we are currently taking number 13" is dumb and you know it

But the evidence shows exactly that.

"but muh dragons would be more popular i swear just look at heroes"
as much as blizzard likes shitting on lore they dont take it to the extreme of "this single dragon now has enough dragons to become not only a class but a race as well because it now knows how to shapeshift and even though that breaks the race system we currently have we will do it because its obviously more popular than a player emulating dragon abilities and we based this on.....crap jerry figure it out"

Blizzard does whatever they want to do. They control the game, and they control the lore. Further, they already designed the template with Alexstraza, Chromie, and Deathwing in HotS, and Wrathion, Nefarian, Onyxia, Kalecgos, Kairozmordu, etc. in WoW. You have the characters and mechanics in place, so instead of starting from square 1, you're starting from square 50 with a concept that is already wildly popular.

In all seriousness if you were a developer, which way would you go?

Do you go with the riskier idea of creating a completely new concept with no lore character to tie it to, and zero history in any Blizzard game? If you need an example of this, check out the very well done Bard concept that most respondents say "doesn't fit WoW".

Or do you go with the safer bet that already has the class structure in place, is full of well known and beloved lore figures that have been in WoW since the beginning, and players have experience with gameplay wise through HotS?

Wrathion has a strong fan base full of people drawing art, writing stories, and attempting to make their characters look like him.

Your "dragon knight" class does not.

That's something to think about.

[Triceron]

we cant call them those though because theres no basis for those names
you see if the class looks like a dragonsworn
walks like a dragonsworn
plays like a dragonsworn
well it cant be called a dragonsworn because thats not how dragonsworn works so we can call it something else
but we cant call it something else because theres no basis for it

But the term 'Dragonsworn' is wholy undefined in Warcraft terms. Blizzard would be the ones defining what 'Dragonsworn' actually means to us, and it is not simply defined by our own observation of 'what this class looks like, walks like, plays like'.

Here's a simple example - What is the difference between a Necromancer and a Mage that uses Necromancy? And does Shadowlands covenants make all Mages Necromancers if they choose the Maldraxxus or Revendreth covenants? No, because Blizzard chooses to define this class as a Mage, and players are unable to change that definition even if they happen to use any other types of magical abilities not commonly associated with Mages. They can walk the walk and talk the talk of a Necromancer without becoming Necromancers.


A Tauren Paladin looks like a Paladin, plays like a Paladin yet is a Sunwalker by definition because they derive their power of light from a druidic source of Sun worship. Blizzard acknowledges Sunwalkers as Paladins, and that's the final say. On the other hand, Anduin uses holy magic, wears plate armor, is martially trained by some of the best warriors, and is able to wield a 2H sword and is not a Paladin. Blizzard acknowledges Anduin as a Priest, and that's the final say. So what exactly is the basis of a Paladin? Whatever Blizzard chooses to define.

There seems to be a hidden element of choice involved in a character deciding what class they wish to be recognized as, and that's the basis on which I'm presenting these potential titles.

I don't think there are clear lines drawn between classes, otherwise the Brewmaster would be its own class instead of an aspect of the Monk. There's also an element of choice between deciding to be a Warlock or a Shaman, as Ner'zhul could have been a Warlock or Necromancer but chose to keep his title as Shaman up until he became the Lich King. Anduin fights for faith and justice and otherwise can do practically everything a Paladin could, yet he chooses to remain a Priest.


The lines can be broken or redrawn at the developer's discretion. A Dragonsworn would simply be defined as whatever they choose to present to us as a Dragonsworn.

[Ielenia]

I've been doing some digging, and it seems like it was Cataclysm lore.

Some major Blue dragon confirmed it in quests, saying 'these are the last batch of eggs, our females can't make more'.

Then it was confirmed a second time in the novel Dawn of the Aspects, where Kalec mentions that Dragons can no longer reproduce, and the ones that exist now will simply grow old and die. This all seems to tie in with being triggered by the death of Deathwing or the destruction of the Demon Soul, not quite sure.

That is why the theory that Black Dragons can still reproduce could be possible, since Deathwing didn't put his power into the Demon Soul. But as far as we know, they're still all corrupted sans Wrathion and Ebonhorn, so we'd need to find the existence of a non-corrupted female for it to matter again.

Which is weird. What happened during Cataclysm, that we are shown, is that the Aspect lots their Aspect powers, but still held their powers. This "they're infertile now" is something new to me.

[Teriz]

I've been doing some digging, and it seems like it was Cataclysm lore.

Some major Blue dragon confirmed it in quests, saying 'these are the last batch of eggs, our females can't make more'.

Then it was confirmed a second time in the novel Dawn of the Aspects, where Kalec mentions that Dragons can no longer reproduce, and the ones that exist now will simply grow old and die. This all seems to tie in with being triggered by the death of Deathwing or the destruction of the Demon Soul, not quite sure.

That is why the theory that Black Dragons can still reproduce could be possible, since Deathwing didn't put his power into the Demon Soul. But as far as we know, they're still all corrupted sans Wrathion and Ebonhorn, so we'd need to find the existence of a non-corrupted female for it to matter again.

At the end of BFA after you defeat Nzoth, you find some Twilight dragon eggs in the carapace of Nzoth that are highly corrupted. Wrathion actually clears the corruption from them and talks about forging a new future where his kind aren’t used as tools of the old gods.

So yeah, it would appear that Wrathion has the power to reverse Old God corruption. I guess he’s Dragon Jesus.

[Triceron]

Which is weird. What happened during Cataclysm, that we are shown, is that the Aspect lots their Aspect powers, but still held their powers. This "they're infertile now" is something new to me.

To be honest it's new to me too, but the information is all available to see.

The Aspects lost a portion of their power, the Dragons lost their immortality, and it seems they've also become infertile. I feel like this is crucial information that's just completely lost on most of the playerbase because it's all presented in novels or obscure quest lines.

I'm sure once we get to a big Dragon-related expansion, they'll set the record straight on what's been happening and what they'll be covering in the future.

- - - Updated - - -

At the end of BFA after you defeat Nzoth, you find some Twilight dragon eggs in the carapace of Nzoth that are highly corrupted. Wrathion actually clears the corruption from them and talks about forging a new future where his kind aren’t used as tools of the old gods.

Interesting stuff. I'll have to look into that, I wasn't aware of this before. Thanks for bringing it to my attention

[Ielenia]

Demon Hunters were from WC3, which predates WoW. And despite getting tons of new lore, Blizzard still retconned old lore and dismantled the spec of an existing class to bring Demon hunters into WoW.

You don't know that. What Blizzard said is that they removed Metamorphosis because wanted to bring the warlock's demonology spec back to its root, not to bring the demon hunter class into the game. You're literally going against what Blizzard has said.