Dragonflight Alpha/Beta General Discussion

[Makorus]

This cinematic plot hole is also very funny. Just found this comment on wowhead:

So was that actually Saurfang and Varian's spirits? If so how did they get there? Varian should have been judged since he was killed before Argus but Saurfang was killed after so shouldn't he have been in the maw?

I'm sure someone of the "Shadowlands is awesome" brigade will explain to me why this worked and was well done, but I'm still waiting for a proper explanation without contradicting the lore they tried to set up in Shadowlands.

I don't think they are actual "ghost spirits" per se, they don't look like any Shadowlands souls anyway.

They both used the sword so it might have something to do with the sword.


I think that because something similiar happened in Legion. (And don't even argue "Oh, he is just remembering the SoO cinematic because it's a reused voice line", because that would make no sense)

[Shadochi]

This cinematic plot hole is also very funny. Just found this comment on wowhead:

So was that actually Saurfang and Varian's spirits? If so how did they get there? Varian should have been judged since he was killed before Argus but Saurfang was killed after so shouldn't he have been in the maw?

I'm sure someone of the "Shadowlands is awesome" brigade will explain to me why this worked and was well done, but I'm still waiting for a proper explanation without contradicting the lore they tried to set up in Shadowlands.

Edit: in before those are just Anduin's memories

Here is my take on it:

Honestly seeing how it had both Saurfang and Varian, and how Varian said it is made of Valor, I am keen to believe that Shalamayne is like the Valor version of a mourneblade, where a part of the users soul will be bound to it if used for valorous purposes (or if they die fighting?). As Varian should've been somewhere in SL or dusted (he died before the machine broke) and Saurfang should be in the Maw.

Also saying that, they basically told us that the Eternal Ones, or at least arbiter, were robots in the announcement leading up to SL by stating the Machine of Death broke

Would also tie in to 7.2 when Anduin gets the sword

[Landrisser]

I don't think they are actual "ghost spirits" per se, they don't look like any Shadowlands souls anyway.

They both used the sword so it might have something to do with the sword.


I think that because something similiar happened in Legion. (And don't even argue "Oh, he is just remembering the SoO cinematic because it's a reused voice line", because that would make no sense)

You’re not actually answering anything with these “explanations”. If it has something to do with the sword then what is the sword doing? Is it making him hallucinate? Is the sword another version of the shadowlands where spirits go? If they aren’t ghosts then what are they? Why was none of this ever established in the story before?

Your “explanations” only lead to more questions.

[Kiivar86]

Edit: in before those are just Anduin's memories

I know you said that but I do think it was essentially that, yes. Basically Anduin's internal struggle.

Also Saurfang ends up that trinket from Sylvanas.

[Makorus]

You’re not actually answering anything with these “explanations”. If it has something to do with the sword then what is the sword doing? Is it making him hallucinate? Is the sword another version of the shadowlands where spirits go? If they aren’t ghosts then what are they? Why was none of this ever established in the story before?

Your “explanations” only lead to more questions.

Not everything needs an explanation before you can accept it for what it is.

It's clearly related to the sword. It happened in 7.2, showing the spirit of the original wielder who died while wielding it. It happened again now, showing the original wielder along with someone else who died wielding it.

But sure, can't wait for you turn it around on me and be like "well frostmourne didn't need an explanation and yet they did that in Shadowlands xD". Get a life loser.

[Vasoka]

Thanks for proving my point.

I mean, I deeply care about the literary analysis of people who think that Warcraft 3 is an artistic masterpiece of writing and think Arthas is one of the best written characters in fiction.

Warcraft 3 is an artistic masterpiece renowned through the decades, Arthas is one of the most iconic fantasy heroes of all times, of all franchises. You're not fooling anyone, Danuser. We know you can't handle toxic masculinity in Warcraft, but at least put some effort in your shilling.

I don't need to explain facts which any fantasy fan knows and has affirmed over the years - as I said, if you need to be explained this, you are not worth the quote. I regret I even wasted 1 min writing this.

Next up, explain why LoTR is a fantasy classic because our boy Makorus needs an elaboration.

[Nyel]

I know you said that but I do think it was essentially that, yes. Basically Anduin's internal struggle.

Also Saurfang ends up that trinket from Sylvanas.

So it's just Anduin remembering during a convenient spot in the storyline... I mean sure, why not. It's just a bit lazy that this all of a sudden is the reason why he breaks free from the domination magic.

[Landrisser]

Not everything needs an explanation before you can accept it for what it is.

LOL. This is the exact mindset needed for someone to wholeheartedly defend WoW’s writing.

You have no clue by what mechanisms any of what transpired happened, and neither do the writers. Which was my point. It’s bad writing by incompetent writers who put very little thought into what they write. Get a life? You’re giving me plenty of life with your hilarious posts

[Shadochi]

So it's just Anduin remembering during a convenient spot in the storyline... I mean sure, why not. It's just a bit lazy that this all of a sudden is the reason why he breaks free from the domination magic.

I mean its not the first time we weaken someone enough for them to snap out

[Nyel]

I mean its not the first time we weaken someone enough for them to snap out

Yeah, exactly that. It's just very... basic and overused. Reminds me of famous TV shows that bring back "dead" characters or characters that left the show just to reinvigorate the show and get some viewers back.

[Pheraz]

Because Anduin was never in some elaborate moral quandary. He understood right and wrong, tried his absolute best to do the right thing and then was forcibly mind controlled and made to do terrible things. This cinematic wasn't about character development for him, it was about him breaking free, which he did, in the entire first half. His reaction and development re: the things that he was forced to do is not something to deal with in 90 seconds in a cinematic immediately after being freed, it's something for him to deal with in the years to come as it changes his approach and attitude, and who he is as a leader (or even not a leader if it results in him permanently stepping down).

So the second half is about that last little glimmer of Arthas, and since Arthas himself in this tiny fragmented form is unable to actually speak, his end is told through the person whose entire character was created by Arthas' actions and who was the only one in the group of people so heavily connected that still hasn't quite let go of lingering resentment.

Like I get not liking Sylvanas. I've disliked her since Vanilla/WC3, but this is the one case where Sylvanas makes the absolute MOST sense to be the one doing something. Not Jaina, who has long sense moved past Arthas and is worried about Anduin, or Uther, whose storyline was all about him figuring out how to let go of Arthas, or Anduin who is dealing with his own shit and whose only connection to Arthas is him being the soul used for the mourneblade forging. Your other (absolutely terrible) option here is to have Arthas himself come back and end his own storyline, which is just awful. It was a much wiser narrative decision to have his last appearance be just a fragment of an echo fading away, seen through the eyes of the one person that spent her entire un-life haunted by and hating that echo.

Yeah maybe you are right. And it is just that I really can't see her face anymore. It's like everything is cycling around her. Anyways, great artistic work (as always).

[Kiivar86]

So it's just Anduin remembering during a convenient spot in the storyline... I mean sure, why not. It's just a bit lazy that this all of a sudden is the reason why he breaks free from the domination magic.

Pretty much.

I was honestly expecting Arthas to appear instead of his father or Saurfang. Well, appear as more than a wisp.

[Aeluron Lightsong]

Pretty much.

I was honestly expecting Arthas to appear instead of his father or Saurfang. Well, appear as more than a wisp.

Nah people would of chewed that response as well. I wouldn't but thats besides the point.

[pacotaco]

She told it to be gone, and it magically disappeared the second she stopped talking.

It's called cinematic death. It's the same as someone saying farewell to a person on deathbed and dying the instand they end talking, instead of waiting several akward minutes (which I think is a subversion of the trope used for comedic value, btw)

[Zantera]

The Arthas situation is a bit of a 'damned if you do damned if you don't' situation. I actually think they deserve some credit for not trying to milk Arthas (arguably the face of the franchise) in an expansion where it would have been so easy to put Arthas at the center of it all, similar to Illidan's role in Legion. Had they used Arthas you would have gotten complaints about tarnishing the character (i think even no matter what they did with him) and by not using him some people will complain that he wasn't used.

I'm just thinking in my head how other big properties like Star Wars will throw a Luke Skywalker cameo into a really boring season of Boba Fett because it's $$$ and the fans go crazy and I'm both surprised and kinda happy that in this case, Arthas wasn't pulled out in some desperation. I wouldn't be surprised down the line if he does come back in some shape or form though.

[pacotaco]

I'm actually more intrigued by the starting part. Is it just Anduin overcoming domination with his own power and having hallucinations during it. Or are those some parts of Varian's and Varrok's souls? In the blade?

It's a bit ambiguous, but I think they're not real: Varian's soul should be obliterated by fel & Varok's one should be in the Maw (probably used to make the trinket that Sylvanas has in SoD: https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Old_Warrior%27s_Soul)

[Ersula]

I get your point but the heavy focus on Sylvanas in the video was objectively too much. It was about Anduin. And all the time we help Jaina to free Anduin. Why the sylv focus again? It's not whining when people talk about the wrong focus. It doesn't mean WoW is dead or everything is always bad or next xpac story will be bad or whatever

Sylvanas & Anduin had equal screentime in the cinematic. Anduing going "Arthas?" was even a stretch because I'm like, if Anduin saw a picture of Arthas, would he even know who he was? This moment right here is the only way Anduin & Arthas' stories intersect. They're totally unrelated characters.

Of course Sylvanas gets the Arthas closure scene. Why wouldn't she? It's like watching the end of Heart of the Swarm & saying "this Mengsk death scene has entirely too much Kerrigan"

It's a short end to their biggest character arcs, but what else is new for Blizzard.

[Kiivar86]

I saw this mentioned on reddit a little bit ago but there's word the Sylvanas novel's been delayed, though I can't seem to verify it myself. Amazon still shows March 29th.

[Ersula]

It's a bit ambiguous, but I think they're not real: Varian's soul should be obliterated by fel & Varok's one should be in the Maw (probably used to make the trinket that Sylvanas has in SoD: https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Old_Warrior%27s_Soul)

They have been using magical realism a lot lately (kind of a foolhardy thing to do in a high fantasy setting) but it would align with Orc shamanistic spirituality: Thrall states his father's spirit is with him when he wields his axe. So I think we're meant to think of it as its actually happening. We have no concrete explanation that killing someone with fel would also destroy their soul, especially when we see how anima works it's more like the fel magic consumes some of the anima, while the rest of the soul escapes. And the Old Soul trinket is suggested to be Varok, but that's not clear either, or if the soul is literal, when it could be only figurative. The same way "the Pride of Stormwind" isn't literal. Or that's its just a piece of his soul.

The idea that Varok, Durotan & Varian's soul resides with noble weapons is a more fitting thing for the Warcraft setting.

[ZyntosAran]

I saw this mentioned on reddit a little bit ago but there's word the Sylvanas novel's been delayed, though I can't seem to verify it myself. Amazon still shows March 29th.

Cant say I am surprised, there is a huge Paper Shortage going on right now (thats also why the rammstein album being due is delayed to a unknown date, due to them not being able to print booklets).