Dragonflight Alpha/Beta General Discussion

[therumblings]

You're comparing an entire race to one character, that's a false equivalency. The two major Void elf characters are way more psychologically complex than the Jailer. Magister Umbric was introduced at the end of Legion but is very nuanced.

The Jailer doesn't even have a character aside from "OMG BOUNDLESS REALITY INVADER!!"

I'm not comparing their complexity. I am comparing how much of an asspull they are. Void Elves were pulled out of thin air to please High Elf fans, and for equality since Horde got Nightborne. While the Jailer was also pulled out of thin air, for Sylvanas. I argue the Jailer fits into the overall story much better than random elves studying the void at the same time Alleria was, and coincidentally meeting up.

Also, Umbric has hardly any character other than "Alleria's Sidekick" who helped the Alliance resurrect some dinos and kill some goblins. How is that any more impressive than the Jailer? Who is Sylvanas' boss who helped her with his Mawsworn army and steal some sigils.

[Varodoc]

I'm not comparing their complexity. I am comparing how much of an asspull they are. Void Elves were pulled out of thin air to please High Elf fans, and for equality since Horde got Nightborne. I argue the Jailer fits into the overall story much better than random elves studying the void at the same time Alleria was, and coincidentally meeting up.

That's a silly argument because you can still be complex while being an "asspull" (every fictional story was pulled out of someone's ass by the way), the Jailer is just a plot device with no ulterior purpose but to permit a Sylvanas redemption story.

I argue the Jailer fits into the overall story much better

It's easy to fit into the story when they retcon half of the established lore for you.

[GR8GODZILLAGOD]

He doesn't necessarily have to have psychological depth.
He just needs to be compelling.

People love Sauron and he was simply evil incarnate.
Most of us here enjoy Gul'dans character and he his whole stick was being power hungry.

As of right now, Zovaal is just a big bald man that appeared out of thin air without ever being even hinted at ever existing before, with no semblance of a personality whatsoever.

He isn't the great schemer that Blizz is telling us that he is.
He isn't this calculated and cunning evil.
He isn't this dread inducing darkness who's shadow is looming over us.

He's just a big bald man, with the most generic lines and voice they could've possibly given him, that appears on screen from time to time to remind us how ah-so-evil-and-powerful he is.

Case in point, a list of just evil guys that you wanted to see more of because of their personalities and presentation:

Palpatine
Darth Vader
Joker
Bane
Pretty much any other Batman villain, really
Scar
Ursula
Hannibal Lector
Voldemort
Gul'dan
Doctor Doom


There's really no excuse for the Jailer being such a bland pos that he is.

[therumblings]

That's a silly argument because you can still be complex while being an "asspull" (every fictional story was pulled out of someone's ass by the way), the Jailer is just a plot device with no ulterior purpose but to permit a Sylvanas redemption story.

Like I said, I wasn't arguing complexity. I just think both are asspull examples.

The Jailer was created to fit into Edge of Night in order to add to Sylvanas' story, Void Elves were created to balance out Nightborne and please High Elf stans.

It's easy to fit into the story when they retcon half of the established lore for you.

Well it is Blizzard we're talking about here, everything we are talking about right now, could be noncanon in a year. Consistency is not a Blizzard thing.

[Sondrelk]

He flat out states he comes for the soul of our world, pretty fucking obvious he wants the world soul for himself and use its massive power for Death. Its a pretty easy thing to understand. Thats been his motivation since the start, its clear. He also hates that his own kin(Eternals) imprisoned him. You may not be paying attention.

We know a tiny bit, but most of what we know are assumptions.

The problem isnt that we know nothing, the problem is that we don't even know enough to fit the bill of the standard mysterious villain. If Blizzard wants to leave parts of his character in the dark for a big reveal then by all means, but that doesnt excuse not telling us more than vague "kill everything" plans.

Again, compare this to Palpatine in the OT, the quintessential evil villain. In A New Hope we didnt just learn that there was an emperor, but also that his rule was not just tyrannical, but actively attempting to remove democracy. His recent evil acts included creating the Death Star as a weapon of terror, further aided by fragmenting the galaxy to make it easier to rule by fear. We knew at least enough to know he wasnt just "lolevil", we knew he had goals in mind with effects we know he intended.
Compare again to the Jailer. We are left ot assume he wants to destroy reality based on vague assumptions and few choice line of dialogue, but we have no idea what those plans are specifically.
Did he convert the Kyrians into Mawsworn to help him cross the veil? To kidnap mortals? Did he just do it to be a dick?
What about the Maw, did he have ANY control before now? Are his minions there converted souls? Automatons? Are they native inhabitants?
Is the Anima shortage a part of his plan, or just a byproduct of getting the Anima to the maw?
Is this a similar plan to what he had before? What even was his previous plan?
Was Denathrius allied to him all along or recently?

We don't need to know everything, but we need to know something.

[Nyel]

At this point I am just expecting blizzard to make lore changes and retcons, almost like hotfixes, where every week they just change or tweak something.

I'm sure they're going to retcon a lot of stuff from Shadowlands just because a) it made no sense or b) didn't fit into the story and makes future storytelling confusing or impossible.

Shadowlands is WoD 2.0 lore-wise. A lot of stuff that doesn't concern anyone except the Shadowlands itself (although it's said the Jailer is coming for reality - who the f* cares).

If they're going to retcon any major storylines, it'll be the ones from Shadowlands.
____________

And this thread is so funny, there are exactly two guys who like the Jailer, one who is literally fanboying hard for the Jailer and the other one is loving everything about recent WoW lore and is praising how great WoW lore is at this point, telling anyone who dares to say how shitty WoW lore has become that it's indeed the best it's ever been (which is absolutely hilarious).

[Varodoc]

The Shadowlands villains aren't even that bad. Denathrius is funny and charming, the Forsworn are morally complex, Sylvanas is Sylvanas.

It's just the Jailer who is a waste of time.

[Nyel]

The Shadowlands villains aren't even that bad. Denathrius is funny and charming, the Forsworn are morally complex, Sylvanas is Sylvanas.

It's just the Jailer who is a waste of time.

Denathrius was / is great. He would have made a far more interesting villain than the Jailer.

[Sondrelk]

I'm sure they're going to retcon a lot of stuff from Shadowlands just because a) it made no sense or b) didn't fit into the story and makes future storytelling confusing or impossible.

Shadowlands is WoD 2.0 lore-wise. A lot of stuff that doesn't concern anyone except the Shadowlands itself (although it's said the Jailer is coming for reality - who the f* cares).

If they're going to retcon any major storylines, it'll be the ones from Shadowlands.
____________

And this thread is so funny, there are exactly two guys who like the Jailer, one who is literally fanboying hard for the Jailer and the other one is loving everything about recent WoW lore and trying to describe how great WoW lore is at this point and telling anyone who dares to say how shitty WoW lore has become that it's indeed the best it's ever been (which is absolutely hilarious).

I would say SL is worse than WoD in that respect. With WoD there was at least the out of timetravel being something exclusive to Bronze Dragons so you could conjure up some loopholes or plot-tape. With the Shadowlands you don't have that, you need to take everything at face value. When someone dies you know where they go, and what happens to them. Every ghost you meet now has to zome with the lingering question of why they have not been picked up. Every afterlife is validated. The characters that die might not be able ot come back without the usual special ressurections, but death will mean far, far less going forward since we simply know they will go to a place we have visited.

The only way I can see Blizzard untangling themselves from it is if the Shadowlands change completely by the time we leave, making it somewhat of a mystery going forward. Otherwise it just leaves those niggling questions.


As for specific retcons they are obviously going to happen. We are seeing them happen in real-time right now with the Stonewright being retconned from OG Venthyr to a regular former mortal. And this despite her character gaining nothing from it except that tiny moment of "cool I guess" when you learn she was a Night Warrior.

- - - Updated - - -

The Shadowlands villains aren't even that bad. Denathrius is funny and charming, the Forsworn are morally complex, Sylvanas is Sylvanas.

It's just the Jailer who is a waste of time.

That's just hte problem though. The Jailer is almost completely superflous to the plot as is. You could replace him with a generic mention of the Machine of Death breaking and big players making a move for supremacy and it would work pretty much exactly the same.
Honestly that is kinda what the story should have been. No Jailer, no ancient conspiracy, just mysterious thing happens to the Shadowlands and people like Denathrius and Sylvanas are taking advantage in a chaotic world we know nothing about.

The Helm of Domination and Frostmourne is the only worthwhile plot thing that the Jaielr is integral to, and that could just as easily be framed as a generic weapon from the Shadowlands that somehow made its way to Azeroth. The base effect on morality and mind control or what have you would be the same.

[Nyel]

I would say SL is worse than WoD in that respect. With WoD there was at least the out of timetravel being something exclusive to Bronze Dragons so you could conjure up some loopholes or plot-tape. With the Shadowlands you don't have that, you need to take everything at face value. When someone dies you know where they go, and what happens to them. Every ghost you meet now has to zome with the lingering question of why they have not been picked up. Every afterlife is validated. The characters that die might not be able ot come back without the usual special ressurections, but death will mean far, far less going forward since we simply know they will go to a place we have visited.

The only way I can see Blizzard untangling themselves from it is if the Shadowlands change completely by the time we leave, making it somewhat of a mystery going forward. Otherwise it just leaves those niggling questions.


As for specific retcons they are obviously going to happen. We are seeing them happen in real-time right now with the Stonewright being retconned from OG Venthyr to a regular former mortal. And this despite her character gaining nothing from it except that tiny moment of "cool I guess" when you learn she was a Night Warrior.

I totally agree. Death doesn't mean anything anymore and that's a massive problem. The only solution is to completely get rid of the Shadowlands. We basically cannot keep the Shadowlands as they are now and go back to normal in the next expansion. Death and dying would be pointless for everybody.

[Varodoc]

Denathrius was / is great. He would have made a far more interesting villain than the Jailer.

Denathrius was a way more interesting villain than the Jailer, that's for sure. Even though his explosions might not be as big as the Jailer's and he might not be "zomg reality boundless", at least he was charismatic and funny.

See sometimes Blizzard comes up with these unique villains like Lei-Shen and Denathrius that steal the spotlight for an entire patch, then are removed never to be seen again, and it's a shame. Because I'd gladly trade the Jailer for Denathrius as main villain.

[Nyel]

Denathrius was a way more interesting villain than the Jailer, that's for sure. Even though his explosions might not be as big as the Jailer's and he might not be "zomg reality boundless", at least he was charismatic and funny.

See sometimes Blizzard comes up with these unique villains like Lei-Shen and Denathrius that steal the spotlight for an entire patch, then are removed never to be seen again, and it's a shame. Because I'd gladly trade the Jailer for Denathrius as main villain.

I think the thing with "mid tier villains" is that Blizzard can write them a very good storyline because it's limited. Blizzard cannot write a good overarching plot and villain anymore. It's been a mess in BfA, it's a mess now and even in Legion the overarching plot was a convoluted mess.

"Smaller" (but not less impactful) villains like Gul'dan or Denathrius on the other hand can shine because their screentime is limited. The last great expansion villain was Deathwing in my opinion. That's ten years ago. Neither Garrosh nor Archimonde nor Argus nor N'zoth were convincing. Deathwing, while the raid sucked, was an epic villain.

[Kiivar86]

The last great expansion villain was Deathwing in my opinion. That's ten years ago. Neither Garrosh nor Archimonde nor Argus nor N'zoth were convincing. Deathwing, while the raid sucked, was an epic villain.

You really think so?

I felt like he was pretty mediocre, myself. Didn't show off any of the cunning he had, mainly just flew about, burning zones, and going "mwahaha, I am EVIL".

The only thing that stands out to me really is him gloating about how he used Alexstrasza's eggs to make his latest Twilight ones. And maybe a line or two from the Spine fight. But otherwise he felt like a flop to me. Very disappointed.

[GR8GODZILLAGOD]

Yeah, Deathwing was only marginally better than the Jailer, and that was really only due to him having a cooler voice and a couple of decent lines.

[KOUNTERPARTS]

The last great expansion villain was Deathwing...

Lmao, are you fucking serious? Seriously???

...in my opinion.

...Oh. Fair point. Carry on.

[Raetary]

Almost like every villain was unknown until they weren’t.

You see, the difference between the Jailer and good villains is that good villains are compelling enough that you want to learn more about them.

The Jailer though? Not really, low lvl dungeon fodder like Godfrey are more interesting to interact with.

[Sondrelk]

Yeah, Deathwing was only marginally better than the Jailer, and that was really only due to him having a cooler voice and a couple of decent lines.

Deathwing I would say was more interesting because he:
A: Attacked areas we cared about and had a history with.
B. Was a constant presence in questing, not quite on the level of WotLK Arthas, but also not completely absent.
C. Was a known presence, even if not as well known in WoW itself.
D. Interesting design. It isnt often we see a giant molten magma dragon held together by metal plates fused to his flesh, whereas humanoids with weird skin are a dime a dozen in WoW.

[Wangming]

Deathwing I would say was more interesting because he:
A: Attacked areas we cared about and had a history with.
B. Was a constant presence in questing, not quite on the level of WotLK Arthas, but also not completely absent.
C. Was a known presence, even if not as well known in WoW itself.
D. Interesting design. It isnt often we see a giant molten magma dragon held together by metal plates fused to his flesh, whereas humanoids with weird skin are a dime a dozen in WoW.

Also, we knew who he was. He had a presence in games and lore since Warcraft 2, so there was anticipation for his return.

Like N'zoth who may have been a disappointment, but had years of buildup.

You either have buildup like Arthas, N'zoth, Sargeras, Deathwing or Elidibus or character like Denathrius, Darth Malgus or Emet-Selch.
Or cringe like the Jailer

[Nyel]

Lmao, are you fucking serious? Seriously???





...Oh. Fair point. Carry on.

Absolutely. Sure, 4.3 was awful, but as a villain he was great. Better than any endboss after him. He was constantly present, the Twilight dragonflight stuff was amazing and he was just an intimidating, omnipresent villain. The Jailer... don't get me started.

[Kiivar86]

Speaking of Denathrius, I do wonder what they're going to do with him since they changed their minds about killing him off.

I also still wonder just who wrote those commands to the other Dreadlords because it wasn't Denathrius (since it mentions him). Tichondrius I guess? We fight him in the Nighthold but he would've revived after that, since we hadn't gone to Argus yet and done all that stuff.