Dragonflight Alpha/Beta General Discussion

[TheFirstOnes]

... Not this again.
People literally used THIS EXACT ARGUMENT, to invalidate Shadowlands speculation.

Funnily enough, it's an argument FOR such an expansion.
As the lack of material to go of off turns the whole concept into blank canvass for Blizzard to paint whatever they want on it.

Just. Like. Shadowlands.

That's cool and all, but I don't think you quite understand what the whole point of Shadowlands is. It's Life and Death. Not just Death. The same way Legion is Order and Disorder, and not just Disorder. Still doesn't mean we explored everything, but it also doesn't mean everything needs to be an expansion. We could see the realm of Order, sure. But that in itself may not be its own Expansion. Same thing applies with Shadowlands, and the whole Life stuff.

Also, mind you, the whole "invalidated" Shadowlands shit happened cause most of the leaks linked that stuff to the Old Gods, which was very hard to believe. However, it was also completely capable of being Validated, since it would be perfect to handle the Life Vs Death cosmic war, the LK plot hasn't fully continued, and we have almost no real idea as to what the hierarchy is regarding Life and Death.

- - - Updated - - -

I'm sorry, I just find it hard to believe we're going to get an entire expansion on Life when we're currently in the expansion that's focused on the Life and Death Cosmic War, while we're getting more and more hints of the Light and Shadow Cosmic War being the supposed next expansion.

[Aeluron Lightsong]

Legion is Order and Disorder,

The Legion is not order in any sense.. like whatsoever. Its lead by an entity that is composed of order but his army is doing all the disorder and well demons love to cause fuckery.

[Sondrelk]

The Legion is not order in any sense.. like whatsoever. Its lead by an entity that is composed of order but his army is doing all the disorder and well demons love to cause fuckery.

I think he means Legion the expansion, as that focused on the burning legion and the titans.

[Dracullus]

snip

Yeah, I agree more or less with your merge. And they really have to build world again not polish here and there, so rather Draenor revamp than Cata revamp.

But funny thing, IF we will get revamp in 10.0, many stuff in SL will make sense. Even if we rather agree current expac has much better and clean structure than BfA, just look how at content. BfA is HUGE expac, 10 dungeons, 6 zones, 2 separate leveling experiencess and every zone had shit ton of side quests. Amount of side storylines was even memed by community and Ion at launch.

It was horrible waste of resouces, but shows how many content current WoW team can create. And if wasn't Legion made after abandoned WoD, BfA was created after really big expac and only 8 month content drought. BfA felt like someone with shit ton of cash who doesn't know where to spend them, SL completely other way around. It feel like their saving for something else.

And of course some of your zones are material for patch content. Overall I would go with something like that:

1) Intro zone - Exiles Reach. After that you go to Orgrimmar/Stormwind (revamped of course)

2) Horde path: Barrens 10-30, Mulgore 30-40, Quel'Thalas 40-50
Ally path: Stormwind 10-30, Khaz Modan 30-40, Myst Islands 40-50

Every of this 6 megazones concentrated around hub city - there you start questlines in subzones, dungeon quests etc. And zones have much, much more quest than needed for their level brackets (but I would love new game mode to relive your leveling with slower and harder experience, I said more about it here in previous posts).

3) 10.0 leveling:Lordareon + Gilneas 50-60. No idea what would be plot on start of expac, but it will likely involve Turalyon light crusade, so I would put main focus of 10.0 here. Expac hub - Stratholme opened for both factions (but capitals will be more important than usual)

4) 10.1 - Uldum patch, Void Strike Back, continuation of story about sword, etc.

5) 10.2 - breath patch, Straglethorn + Kezan. Straglethorn as huge sandbox zone (with some story about Nesigwary), Undermine raid on Kezan

6) 10.3 - Kaldorei territory, expac would end of mount Hyjal just like Warcraft III.

Expac like this would require so many resources I can't really see Dragon Isles fit anywhere here.

[huth]

I think he means Legion the expansion, as that focused on the burning legion and the titans.

Which doesn't really make it any more comparable to Shadowlands, though. The story is pretty much entirely focused on Death, with Life playing no real role and Light and Void as minor bit players.

[TheFirstOnes]

The Legion is not order in any sense.. like whatsoever. Its lead by an entity that is composed of order but his army is doing all the disorder and well demons love to cause fuckery.

That is not what I meant whatsoever. The entire expansion is based on the Order Vs Disorder Cosmic War. The Burning Legion was focused on because they were the main enemy of the Order and Disorder Cosmic balance.

- - - Updated - - -

Which doesn't really make it any more comparable to Shadowlands, though. The story is pretty much entirely focused on Death, with Life playing no real role and Light and Void as minor bit players.

"with Life playing no real role"

Did you literally just ignore Anduin's entire conflict with Sylvanas, as well as Ardenweald's existence?

- - - Updated - - -

Yes, Death is the MAIN FOCUS OF SHADOWLANDS! That does NOT mean Life has no part to play. This is about the cosmic war between Life and Death, the same way Legion was with Order and Disorder.

Hell, we get almost little to no actual order shit in Legion outside of Odyn's plot, the Pillars of Creation, and the Titan stuff in 7.3. The same way SL has the Ardenweald stuff, Tyrande's plot, the Drust, and the Death agent inside the realm of Life.

[Makabreska]

Which doesn't really make it any more comparable to Shadowlands, though. The story is pretty much entirely focused on Death, with Life playing no real role and Light and Void as minor bit players.

Ardenweld is about death AND rebirth. But tbh, remove the knowledge about the afterlife and some story lines from us, and we would never even think these zones are in Death realm (aside maybe from Maldraxxus). These are normal, living, breathing creatures with complex social structures. There is a native flora and fauna there similar to Azerothian. It could be easily a different planet or even a continent and we wouldn't be able to tell the difference. Death theme is pretty light outside of Maw.

[TheFirstOnes]

I don't see how y'all think nothing about SL will involve the Plane of Life, even though Ardenweald's connected to the Dream (Which, in Chronicle, is also the polar opposite of the Shadowlands on the map, and not just Ardenweald as it appears), and there's some hints of potentially exploring more of the Plane of Life overall. It's not hard for the Drust, or the agents of Death to invade there. Also note that Ardenweald in itself is not just a Death realm. It represents Life in its waning moments, the same way the Dream represented Life in its waxing moments. So, it can be considered as apart of the Plane of Life, while also being part of the Plane of Death.

- - - Updated - - -

Ardenweld is about death AND rebirth. But tbh, remove the knowledge about the afterlife and some story lines from us, and we would never even think these zones are in Death realm (aside maybe from Maldraxxus). These are normal, living, breathing creatures with complex social structures. There is a native flora and fauna there similar to Azerothian. It could be easily a different planet or even a continent and we wouldn't be able to tell the difference. Death theme is pretty light outside of Maw.

Of course, because Life affects all things, especially Death. There is life that exists beyond ones mortal life. Hence why it's called "The Afterlife". Death affects Life the same way Life affects Death. To ignore that would be to ignore the whole point of this expansion, ya know?

- - - Updated - - -

Hell, there are interviews that state that Ardenweald is the afterlife of Life beings and mortals connected to it. That, plus the Dream statements and all, can only further the connection that Ardenweald and the Dream are of the realms of Life.

Mind you, these connections existed before the Pantheon (Or/And the Keepers) touched it, and what we saw in Legion and BFA was only a fraction of what the Dream actually is. Who's to say we won't see a little more of it in a future raid?

- - - Updated - - -

Yeah, I agree more or less with your merge. And they really have to build world again not polish here and there, so rather Draenor revamp than Cata revamp.

But funny thing, IF we will get revamp in 10.0, many stuff in SL will make sense. Even if we rather agree current expac has much better and clean structure than BfA, just look how at content. BfA is HUGE expac, 10 dungeons, 6 zones, 2 separate leveling experiencess and every zone had shit ton of side quests. Amount of side storylines was even memed by community and Ion at launch.

It was horrible waste of resouces, but shows how many content current WoW team can create. And if wasn't Legion made after abandoned WoD, BfA was created after really big expac and only 8 month content drought. BfA felt like someone with shit ton of cash who doesn't know where to spend them, SL completely other way around. It feel like their saving for something else.

And of course some of your zones are material for patch content. Overall I would go with something like that:

1) Intro zone - Exiles Reach. After that you go to Orgrimmar/Stormwind (revamped of course)

2) Horde path: Barrens 10-30, Mulgore 30-40, Quel'Thalas 40-50
Ally path: Stormwind 10-30, Khaz Modan 30-40, Myst Islands 40-50

Every of this 6 megazones concentrated around hub city - there you start questlines in subzones, dungeon quests etc. And zones have much, much more quest than needed for their level brackets (but I would love new game mode to relive your leveling with slower and harder experience, I said more about it here in previous posts).

3) 10.0 leveling:Lordareon + Gilneas 50-60. No idea what would be plot on start of expac, but it will likely involve Turalyon light crusade, so I would put main focus of 10.0 here. Expac hub - Stratholme opened for both factions (but capitals will be more important than usual)

4) 10.1 - Uldum patch, Void Strike Back, continuation of story about sword, etc.

5) 10.2 - breath patch, Straglethorn + Kezan. Straglethorn as huge sandbox zone (with some story about Nesigwary), Undermine raid on Kezan

6) 10.3 - Kaldorei territory, expac would end of mount Hyjal just like Warcraft III.

Expac like this would require so many resources I can't really see Dragon Isles fit anywhere here.

This would not be a good idea for an expansion. Idk why we'd get an Undermine raid or anything like that. At most, I can see a World Revamp + Dragon Isles, with the main focus of the expansion being about Light and Shadow, not just a "light crusade", though I do see it being a big focus. You also forgot to mention Lothraxion, how Sargeras would play into it, Yrel, Elune, etc.

[LemonDemonGirl]

With all of this Light/Void talk, I'm scared of a corrupted Bwonsamdi

[huth]

"with Life playing no real role"

Did you literally just ignore Anduin's entire conflict with Sylvanas, as well as Ardenweald's existence?

You're confusing life with Life there. And i'm not even sure why you bring up Anduin and Sylvanas, as neither of them is connected to Life.

[TheFirstOnes]

You're confusing life with Life there. And i'm not even sure why you bring up Anduin and Sylvanas, as neither of them is connected to Life.

There's nothing to confuse. Ardenweald is of the Planes of Life. It's existence, as well as the Dreams, is to represent the true nature of Life within the Cosmic Chart.

I'm bringing up Anduin and Sylvanas because their whole point is that Anduin is arguing the side of Life, while Sylvanas is arguing the side of Death (There is literally a cinematic involving this). The 2 forces that are, well...the main focus of the SL Expansion.

- - - Updated - - -

With all of this Light/Void talk, I'm scared of a corrupted Bwonsamdi

I don't think he'll be corrupted anytime soon. Dude's the top dog of De Other Side now. He's fine.

[huth]

There's nothing to confuse. Ardenweald is of the Planes of Life. It's existence, as well as the Dreams, is to represent the true nature of Life within the Cosmic Chart.

I'm bringing up Anduin and Sylvanas because their whole point is that Anduin is arguing the side of Life, while Sylvanas is arguing the side of Death (There is literally a cinematic involving this). The 2 forces that are, well...the main focus of the SL Expansion.

You're confusing life with Life. Just like a well sorted bookshelf is not an example of the cosmic force Order, these aren't examples of Life.

[TheFirstOnes]

You're confusing life with Life. Just like a well sorted bookshelf is not an example of the cosmic force Order, these aren't examples of Life.

"Just like a well sorted bookshelf is not an example of the cosmic force Order, these aren't examples of Life."

This analogy doesn't make sense in regards to what's going on, though? Ardenweald and the Dream have been confirmed on multiple occasions to be the personifications of Life in the Cosmos.

"Ardenweald and the Emerald Dream are opposite blooms connected to the same tree. If the Dream is the personification of Life in the waxing stage, then Ardenweald is life when it is waning"

And then you have Steve's own mouth:

"Steve Danuser, lead narrative designer, explains Ardenweald’s great purpose in the cosmos. “How could Nature, a force of Life itself, have a home within the Shadowlands? For though it is indeed rooted in the cosmos-shaping force of Death, this realm is the highest expression of the relationship between endings and beginnings. Slumber and awakening. Death… and Life."

“Nature is, after all, a cycle. And if the spring and summer of that cycle is expressed within the Emerald Dream, then its fall and winter is the very core of Ardenweald’s purpose. Just as fields must lie fallow for a time in order for crops to grow again, and as trees stand bereft of leaves before they unfold once more in springtime, so the souls of nature spirits require slumber before they can return to the realm of the living.”

Once again, I have no idea how you think this expansion doesn't involve Life. It's literally right there.

- - - Updated - - -

I'm not making some type of stupid "bookshelf" comparison. I bringing up the narrative designers own words verbatim.

[huth]

I bringing up the narrative designers own words verbatim.

But he's just stating that it is the death part of the cycle of life and death. It's connected to Life, but Life doesn't play a role in SL, at least so far.

[TheFirstOnes]

But he's just stating that it is the death part of the cycle of life and death. It's connected to Life, but Life doesn't play a role in SL, at least so far.

It's the afterlife of nature, yes. But he's phrasing it as though Life is required to keep the Shadowlands, especially Ardenweald balanced and running. I'd say Life plays a very important role in SL, especially with what Steve says about it.

My point is that Life won't be the MAIN focus of SL, but it's definitely going to be expanded upon here. I wouldn't be shocked if we get a Mini raid, or finish off the Ardenweald Covenant plot with us exploring more of the Dream and saving it from the Agents of Death.

[Dracullus]

This would not be a good idea for an expansion. Idk why we'd get an Undermine raid or anything like that. At most, I can see a World Revamp + Dragon Isles, with the main focus of the expansion being about Light and Shadow, not just a "light crusade", though I do see it being a big focus. You also forgot to mention Lothraxion, how Sargeras would play into it, Yrel, Elune, etc.

I almost didn't touch what could be theme of expac (Turalyon seems like very obvious thing, but I as well predict overall "Light vs Shadow and us+Azeroth in between" theme), post was rather how I could see Azeroth revamp - to use EK+Kalimdor for 10-50 leveling, some zones for 50-60 (but not spread around world like in Cata, I'm tired of it after BfA and especially SL), some zones as patch focus (and with full questlines this time, even if they are timegated).

"At most, I can see a World Revamp + Dragon Isles" <- don't get this comment, world revamp require HUGE amount of work, that's why I wouldn't add Dragon Isles (maybe Kezan/Maelstrom area too), Cata was just 5 years after launch, we are now 10 years after Cata, they can't just add some lava/cracks to new zones and make new questlines. If they won't build this world again from scratch, they shouldn't bother with revamp at all and just make new continent like Dragon Isles.

But something tells me, it they plan some huge changes to WoW, 10.0 is perfect time. Very conservative use of resources in SL (less dungeons, less zones, gap after 9.0 even longer than after 8.0, less questlines. full sandbox end zone) convinces me even further.

We will see in.. no one really know when, we have no idea when will be next Blizzcon - could be this November, whole thing could switch to February, could be November next year when they will be sure they could do it old way. So we may even see separate event for 10.0 reveal. Currently it feels like they really want spread SL, so by the end of 2021 we will be in early season 3, still months before all SL content unlock.

[TheFirstOnes]

"So we may even see separate event for 10.0 reveal. Currently it feels like they really want spread SL, so by the end of 2021 we will be in early season 3, still months before all SL content unlock."

Maybe. I assume they will want to spread Shadowlands to get the whole Life and Death conflict down perfectly, as well as provide enough updates to the game so that it'll be fun again, unlike with BFA. Reminder, they've been developing this expansion a LOT better than BFA, and that's probably due to the fact that COVID's a thing. Ironically, I think COVID actually helped WoW. That, and Blizzard finally waking tf up.

"But something tells me, it they plan some huge changes to WoW, 10.0 is perfect time. Very conservative use of resources in SL (less dungeons, less zones, gap after 9.0 even longer than after 8.0, less questlines. full sandbox end zone) convinces me even further."

I don't think anything's been conservative really. SL's pretty fucking big enough as it is. Besides, it's not riddled with many pointless systems like with BFA and Legion. They also made lots of changes in SL, btw. I assume that, SL's a success, they'll likely expand upon it in 10.0. Though, I've been wrong before.

"don't get this comment, world revamp require HUGE amount of work, that's why I wouldn't add Dragon Isles (maybe Kezan/Maelstrom area too), Cata was just 5 years after launch, we are now 10 years after Cata, they can't just add some lava/cracks to new zones and make new questlines. If they won't build this world again from scratch, they shouldn't bother with revamp at all and just make new continent like Dragon Isles"

Why not? We got multiple new Cata Zones, as well as a world revamp. No reason why a World Revamp + The Dragon Isles shouldn't exist in the same expansion. Hell, I'd argue the Dragon Isles would require less work than the new Cata zones, or if not, just as much work.

" almost didn't touch what could be theme of expac (Turalyon seems like very obvious thing, but I as well predict overall "Light vs Shadow and us+Azeroth in between" theme), post was rather how I could see Azeroth revamp - to use EK+Kalimdor for 10-50 leveling, some zones for 50-60 (but not spread around world like in Cata, I'm tired of it after BfA and especially SL), some zones as patch focus (and with full questlines this time, even if they are timegated)."

Lvl cap will prolly be 70 in 10.0.

[Revamp Man]

I doubt we will see any meaningful archaeology stuff. Blizz doesn't seem to know what to do with it and players don't seem to care.

..i like it though....

honestly the whole "archeology doesnt make sense in SL" was a weak excuse from them instead of just saying "yeah we kinda skipped it"

- - - Updated - - -

I'm thinking that Dragon Isles will be the new zones in an expansion that revamps the continents.

Just like how Cataclysm included zones for endgame content (the elemental zones) they would need to have some areas you go to after you're done adventuring on the main continents. Just, they will probably add WQs and rares to EK/Kalimdor to keep them relevant.

Pandaria (outside of BFA Vale) and Northrend will unfortunately probably be irrelevant.

i would be ok with this and when you go into an old zone instead of hunting down the chick to swap timelines she just pops up and you can do it immediately

Pandaland was sadly wasted

[therumblings]

They could also just make Zidormi toggle the entire continent rather than 50 Zidormi NPCs across zones.

[Sondrelk]

..i like it though....

honestly the whole "archeology doesnt make sense in SL" was a weak excuse from them instead of just saying "yeah we kinda skipped it"

- - - Updated - - -



i would be ok with this and when you go into an old zone instead of hunting down the chick to swap timelines she just pops up and you can do it immediately

Pandaland was sadly wasted

The problem with Archaeology is that it is aa feature that only truly worked in Cata, and even then mostly because it actually gave players a reason to go back to the revamped zones.
In later expansions it never got as exciting as it was then, partially because you only used it in the new areas, and partially because you didnt have the wealth of areas to prospect in that you had in Cata where they didnt just give you sites in EK and Kalimdor, but also Northrend and Outland.