Dragonflight Alpha/Beta General Discussion

[Nymrohd]

I think that if it were up to me, Battle for Azeroth would've followed two general plotlines—one is the plotline of the objectors, one is the plotline of the contributors. Some players may side more with Magni, choosing to try to prevent the war from happening at all. Conversely, others may try to chug the war along, weaponizing Azerite in a short-sighted bid at world domination. In my mind, Battle for Azeroth never should've been a black-and-white story of good vs. evil—it should've been one where both factions were in the wrong. A darker, more realistic plot in which Azerite really was the equivalent to plutonium, and Azeroth itself is endangered by the reckless use of her blood to create superweaopns. Azerite in my version of BfA would've been disastrous in use, only rarely demonstrated but always devastating—every major event, like the Burning of Teldrassil, would've involved Azerite being used in some way, and the consequences would always shock both factions. Even the perpetrators of Teldrassil would not entirely expect what would happen. Perhaps, initially, the plan would be to smoke out the Night Elves with firebombings—then, against all expectations, Teldrassil goes up like dynamite when the bombardment starts incorporating Azerite. MAD takes place on Azeroth, and the world suffers for it. Much of it is scarred, and the Third Death really starts to take place. Perhaps the world is not as thoroughly-shattered as in the Cataclysm or Sundering, but it is certainly a disastrous effect. Much of Azeroth would be drawn into war, morality would be muddled, and selfishness would take center-stage.

The war would become more about deescalation, doing as much as possible to extend influence without engagement. The plots of Zandalar and Kul Tiras would follow that theme, being based on the real-life power plays of the Cold War. After Teldrassil, I envision things cooling down to harsh tensions, and they only flare up again in the patches, reaching their boiling point in 8.3 where the war finally reaches its head. Whether or not we'd fight the Old Gods to try to end the war or face an actual confrontation, I don't know, but it would follow that general theme.

As for Shadowlands, I think Bolvar would make a fine Khadgar—if he were still the Lich King. Having a morally-dubious ally leading us through the Shadowalnds would be very interesting. I'd love to see something like that happen. It would be a Death Knight's dream, and it would show us precisely how he is different from – yet still similar to – the other Lich Kings. It would not be so much the end of the Lich King, but Bolvar finally getting to shine and enshrining himself as the true successor to Arthas.

The question really is, what is the narrative goal of the expansion. BfA managed the following. It removed the Warchief role, it showed Azshara as a free agent, it wrapped up the N'zoth story and it introduced the Shadowlands story. Was a faction truce also a narrative goal? I am not sure. Blizzard resisted cross faction gameplay for PvE for years after the problem had been glaringly obvious and I am unsure that 9.2.5 will have enough of an effect (especially without cross-faction guilds).

I think the only goal that was achieved somewhat well was Azshara. The short was "magnificent", her VA did her justice throughout Nazjatar, her presence in Nyalotha was perfect. Really only thing that went wrong for her was how bad her raid encounter was.
Everything else went like crap. Shadowlands story was telegraphed but to this day if you don't read the novel the actual story, the character motivations are mostly opaque. Oh they are implied and people largely gathered what was happening but they are not really presented at any point with the required clarity.
The Warchief issue? I'm of two minds on whether the Horde is better without a Warchief. On one hand, the Horde now includes several nations with significant power. The oath was in the past undertaken out of loyalty to Thrall's Horde or out of desperation. Yet the Highmountain joined out of friendship to their own race, the Nightborne joined out of I guess, curiosity? and the Zandalari under Talan'ji definitely don't seem willing to be subservient. Which means that if they wanted to get rid of the Warchief it could have been done through politics, not by the forceful removal of yet another Warchief. On the other hand it used to be part of the identity of the Horde but that has been diluted so much; from a bunch of strugglers they now include no less than three ancient civilizations that are older than the humans and dwarves who were their main opponents.

As for the truce, we all know that's bullshit. There was nothing satisfactory about how the war ended. Alliance players had to go through the Burning and Brennadam and the devs chose to make that story so how that could ever lead to a truce is beyond me.

What I'd have done is use N'zoth. It would have been N'zoth who caused the war by having traitors in both factions. have both factions commit war crimes but also make those war crimes work towards faction pride instead of kick the dog moments. Have the Alliance kill Horde soldiers, not set fire to random fox furries in a desert in the middle of nowhere. Have the Horde strike a military target in Kul Tiras with the Plague or an Arcane Bomb v2, not a town with civilians with parents impaled in front of their children. Don't make the war feel so one sided and don't make the factions so stupid. The Horde loses constantly and then suddenly fully reverses in a single patch because of Azshara? Alliance destroys the entire Zandalari fleet yet then goes to murder Rastakhan to significant danger (and pointless war crimes) even though the military goal was achieved?
Then when N'zoth is released make him an actual threat that forces the factions to work together or face extinction. You can go with sheer pragmatism by having him assault the factions directly and almost win, using Wrathion and Magni to negotiate a truce. Or maybe go for feeling and have some tragedy; have Horde assault an alliance location only to find the K'thir doing actually "kick the dog" things to the civilians and then having the Horde commander go "Screw it, we are saving the civilians" with a similar scenario on the other side. Make the truce feel organic.

[rainhard]

About the Murozond thing, they could just make it so that future and past us help in his defeat in an epic raid fight where we persue him in many different places until ending up in end times again with our former selves killing him there again.

[JDBlou]

I didn't mean Nozdormu. I mean Murozond.

Go run End Time. We killed him there.

Meaning we can't kill him in Dragonflight in a big fancy cutscene, he has to survive so we can kill him there.

By defeating Deathwing, that timeline resulting in a Murozond was closed off, but it's still an eventuality by predestination. We'll see Murozond by end of expansion.

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For sure but it cheapens it slightly to know that he isn't defeated for good. What I hope happens is a new leader for the infinite appears and we just witness the fall of Nozdormu. The infinite is too good of bad guy for anything to write off completely and Blizzard has hinted that the different types of dragons will all be involved in the future (or fight against us).

Nozdormu says: At last it has come to pass. The moment of my demise. The loop is closed. My future self will cause no more harm.
Nozdormu says: Still, in time, I will... fall to madness. And you, heroes... will vanquish me. The cycle will repeat. So it goes.

It's just a matter of time. The when or where isn't set.

[Khaza-R]

I didn't mean Nozdormu. I mean Murozond.

Go run End Time. We killed him there.

Meaning we can't kill him in Dragonflight in a big fancy cutscene, he has to survive so we can kill him there.

I don't think it works that way for Infinite Dragons.

They can move about the timelines however they please. Nozdormu is still alive and will create Murozond eventually. Who will probably perceive how we killed the previous Murozond.

The only way to kill him for sure is to kill Nozdormu and stop him from ever existing. Which is a concept I think the Deaths of Chromie was hinting at. The only way to really kill an Infinite Dragon is to kill their bronze self.

[Nymrohd]

I don't think it works that way for Infinite Dragons.

They can move about the timelines however they please. Nozdormu is still alive and will create Murozond eventually. Who will probably perceive how we killed the previous Murozond.

The only way to kill him for sure is to kill Nozdormu and stop him from ever existing. Which is a concept I think the Deaths of Chromie was hinting at. The only way to really kill an Infinite Dragon is to kill their bronze self.

Or trap the Infinite somehow.

[Xilurm]

Regarding Murozond, they could make it more tragic by having Nozdormu die in a raid while turning into, or shortly after turning into Murozond. The different timelines allow for that, as someone previously said, the End Times was just A timeline.

And then someone else could take leadership of the Bronze. Probably Anachronos since he is the heir.

[Chickat]

In thinking about it, you know what is absolutely criminal Blizzard hasn't brought back?
Quivers.

The game already supported them, had several appearances available, and they were tied to items.

Just add a vendor back on a hunter trainer somewhere and we are golden.

Yeah I kinda think a very minor alternate in advancement system could be quivers relics tomes etc. They be could just have slots for 2 or 3 special gems plus level up in item level with some kind of power. The gems would be like legion relics. Extra talents. Very simple. If they ever do borrowed power again. Lots of quiver ammo pouches appearances to collect etc.

[rhorle]

It's just a matter of time. The when or where isn't set.

Right. We haven't seen when he turns into Murozond yet. Be we have seen where he is ultimately defeated. It takes some of the wind out of the sails a little because it is just a "set back" and not truly stopping him. It is the same case with anyone reused but we usually don't know they are for sure dead until they stop popping up. Think Garrosh being a pile of ashes means he likely can't show up every again.

[Chickat]

Interesting. 2022 release after all, like Scaleface predicted?

I doubt it. Not with season 4. I could see a feb release though. 6 months of season 3 and then 5 of season 4. Prepatch in Jan. Alpha in may. Long alpha for lots of time for feedback.

[JDBlou]

Right. We haven't seen when he turns into Murozond yet. Be we have seen where he is ultimately defeated. It takes some of the wind out of the sails a little because it is just a "set back" and not truly stopping him. It is the same case with anyone reused but we usually don't know they are for sure dead until they stop popping up. Think Garrosh being a pile of ashes means he likely can't show up every again.

I mean an end of raid boss would probably be a more epic fight with a big, bad time dragon more than a 5 man dungeon ever could.

[Nymrohd]

Yeah I kinda think a very minor alternate in advancement system could be quivers relics tomes etc. They be could just have slots for 2 or 3 special gems plus level up in item level with some kind of power. The gems would be like legion relics. Extra talents. Very simple. If they ever do borrowed power again. Lots of quiver ammo pouches appearances to collect etc.

I honestly would like more equipment slots. Everyone could get back the ranged/relic slot and imo I'd love a third trinket slot (though nowadays it seems most trinkets are on use)

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I doubt it. Not with season 4. I could see a feb release though. 6 months of season 3 and then 5 of season 4. Prepatch in Jan. Alpha in may. Long alpha for lots of time for feedback.

I always hope for a longer pre-expac period. Gives us the new talent system for more than 2-3 weeks on live before the expac. Best test it can get.

[Chickat]

I don't think they'll release WOTLK Classic and Dragonflight in the same quarter. Still on Q1 2023 boat.

I agree. I think we are just in for a really long alpha beta cycle. I could even see potentially the prepatch coming December with the expansion in February. That way people have plenty of time for evoker play.

[ChairmanKaga]

I agree. I think we are just in for a really long alpha beta cycle. I could even see potentially the prepatch coming December with the expansion in February. That way people have plenty of time for evoker play.

Wasn't there a blurb that stated the prepatch was going to be two weeks long this time?

Edit: found here https://www.wowhead.com/news/dragonf...-mythic-326780

The Pre-Patch event is planned to last for 2 weeks, and will introduce players to Dragonflight. A level 60 revamp of the classic dungeon Uldaman is planned for the event.
Dracthyr Evokers will be available to players during the pre-patch event.

[Nymrohd]

Wasn't there a blurb that stated the prepatch was going to be two weeks long this time?

Well that would be weird given we usually only know about prepatch length at the time the prepatch launch gets announced.

[Chickat]

We are like the aspects. We can do everything they can do (and perhaps more since the specs merge the powers of multiple dragonflights), we just don't look like four legged dragons.

Once the final models are released and we get all of our customizations, things will be fine.

I see evokers as little mini chromatus. We can do anything an aspect can do, just at like a tenth the power. They had lots of failures making a chromatus because they wanted 100% power of every aspect. Deathwing had some of the power of all the aspects and it almost tore his body apart.


So I see us kinda like death knights are to the lich king. Same stuff just less powerful.

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I find it quite funny that people call the Dracthyr form an overglorified druid form, but then ask for the regular drake model.
As if that wouldn't be an overglorified druid form.

I see evokers and drakthyr as a demon hunter and not as a new race. If you think about them just being elves that turn into dragons and not a unique race it makes sense.

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Speaking of options, looks like they are thinking of making it so you can fight in visage form if you want.

There great. They are listening to feedback quickly this time. They are probably gonna settle on a glyph or something that lets you stay in visage form unless you have to do an inately dragon ability.


So your standard fireball spells will allow you to be in visage but when you click a dragon form spell it will automatically shift you in to use it and back out once it's done.

[Nymrohd]

So apparently the sword in Silithus is just a glorified splinter as per the buffed.de interview

[Chickat]

If they make it so you can fight in visage form 99% of players will just be blood elves. If they are going to do this, then they have to expand customization for visage form to more races at the very least. This feels like Demon Hunters 2 instead of a new race.

That's literally what it is though lol. They shouldn't have marketed it as a new race tbh.

[huth]

Well that would be weird given we usually only know about prepatch length at the time the prepatch launch gets announced.

It says the event will last two weeks. The prepatch could potentially be longer.

[Chickat]

I am more concerned they will use the ability to play entirely in visage form to skimp out on Dragon form customizations.
What is the point afterall of ensuring that the dragon forms are more than a glorified druid form if it's only the tiniest of steps above the DH metamorphosis forms?

The visage form honestly feels like it should have been a "fun" racial ability to turn into any race out of combat, not in any way a base form. You play a Dracthyr to be a dragon, not a belf with horns.

I doubt it as this seems like a rather new development and thought process. They probably have most of the race done anyways.

[huth]

So apparently the sword in Silithus is just a glorified splinter as per the buffed.de interview

At this point, that's what it should be. We can't remove it, but by itself, it ain't gonna do much.