Dragonflight Alpha/Beta General Discussion

[Le Conceptuel]

The valkyr choose the afterlives they showed her - and since the shadowlands are infinite they would never have to run into one that actually had loved ones together. It was clearly a lie to get her on his side.

Also new lore > old lore is a thing in most stories. Not everything can be a Song of Ice and Fire.

Having a modicum of consistency is expected.

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The valkyr take sylvanas any where she wants to go the jailer gives them endless time to look about (with the warning of returning to a skeleton) and tell them to do what she wishes, they aren’t pulling one over on her by only showing her bad places she’s in control the whole time.

They're taking her anywhere she wants to go—based on her limited understanding and judgment. If I say I want to go to France, and you take me to a slum in France, you were still painting my expectations. I went where I wanted, but my expectations were still distorted by what you showed me.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

They're not part of that particular set of default afterlives. What about, say, the Lightforged? They could theoretically go to the Light upon death, and we actually see that directly happen numerous times. We also know from Uuna that the Light seems to have a direct connection to a particular afterlife and an interview outwardly states that the Light can serve as an afterlife, if abnormally for most lifeforms.

there’s no reason to think the light forged wouldn’t go to the shadowlands, having a part of/being killed by a piece of actual Naaru doesn’t send one to the light (morgrain) so being powered up by one likely wouldn’t either.

The only actual example we have of some one going to the light is that one pally in icecrown and that was direct Naaru stepping in before he died effectively taking a soul the same way frostmourn does before it ever goes to the after life’s.

It literally explicitly says he's potentially in "some kind of endless hunting grounds" and that Draka could join him someday, directly contradicting both of your main premises.

“potentially”
In “some kind” of hunting grounds “if every thing went well” isn’t a conformation if the rocs beliefs it’s not even a conformation that he’s any where it’s abunch of none commitments that tell of nothing of the actual state of the lore as they purposely left it up in the air.

Can we get a new logical fallacy exclusively for this forum? "Argumentum ad retconum"—the claim that all evidence contrary to ones argument is, in fact, a retcon and no longer counts.

I’m sorry you don’t know how retcons work?

[Revamp Man]

I think we have to adjust the expansions differently. This is how I would group them, thematically:

a) WotLK and Shadowlands
b) TBC, WoD and Legion
c) Cataclysm, MoP, BfA and Dragonflight

The only outlier is BfA, which would fit into a) as well due to the terrible Sylvanas storyline. But it fits the MoP - Dragonflight line, too, in my opinion.

MoP is getting the love it deserves which is what matters

i am setting myself up for disappointment but after seeing the crafting system i am excited for my alts

[Le Conceptuel]

“potentially”
In “some kind” of hunting grounds “if every thing went well” isn’t a conformation if the rocs beliefs it’s not even a conformation that he’s any where it’s abunch of none commitments that tell of nothing of the actual state of the lore as they purposely left it up in the air.

But these do act as explicit confirmation that it is possible to begin with. You're also ignoring my earlier statement regarding how "choosing where you want to go" doesn't give you any strict reason to believe what you're being shown isn't a microcosm.

I’m sorry you don’t know how retcons work?

Yes. You're assuming a retcon when it's not explicit—an explicit retcon would be making the Nerubians take their architecture from the Shadowlands to retroactively connect the Scourge to Maldraxxus and explain the reused designs. This is something you are interpreting as a retcon instead of accepting reality. There exists a realistic reconciliation between these details, unlike the Nerubian situation.

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there’s no reason to think the light forged wouldn’t go to the shadowlands, having a part of/being killed by a piece of actual Naaru doesn’t send one to the light (morgrain) so being powered up by one likely wouldn’t either.

So, the Fel can send you to the Twisting Nether with a sufficient amount to physically warp you, but not the Light?

[Lorgar Aurelian]

Yes, she chooses the general location whilst also being entirely herded about by the Jailer and being there on his authority—and, once again, it's stated to be possible for Durotan and Draka to reunite.

She isn’t herded in any way they take her exactly where she wants to go with her being able to name any person she wants and they take her directly to them, she even goes out of her way not to visit family members because she doesn’t want to open them or her self up to the jailer knowing things that will get to her.

[Le Conceptuel]

She isn’t herded in any way they take her exactly where she wants to go with her being able to name any person she wants and they take her directly to them, she even goes out of her way not to visit family members because she doesn’t want to open them or her self up to the jailer knowing things that will get to her.

That is, again, limited by her assumptions and the scale of her knowledge. You're assuming she is being given more information than she is—and, again, they are capable of showing her a particular microcosm which may not strictly necessitate the macrocosm of any given situation. This is all based on hugely circumstantial and very likely skewed information. Let's also not forget the detail of Zovaal specifically whispering to the Val'kyr right before Sylvanas left.

This is what we in the business call "Argumentum ad infinitum"—you are needlessly extending the argument in hopes that I'll concede my point based on exhaustion alone instead of accepting that you're wrong and moving on.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

But these do act as explicit confirmation that it is possible to begin with. You're also ignoring my earlier statement regarding how "choosing where you want to go" doesn't give you any strict reason to believe what you're being shown isn't a microcosm.

the only thing it confirms is that Draka could find duratan it doesn’t actually tell us rather the hunting lands exist, rather durotan is in them, or rather any other orcs are there.

Yes. You're assuming a retcon when it's not explicit—an explicit retcon would be making the Nerubians take their architecture from the Shadowlands to retroactively connect the Scourge to Maldraxxus and explain the reused designs. This is something you are interpreting as a retcon instead of accepting reality. There exists a realistic reconciliation between these details, unlike the Nerubian situation.

Carine being in oroboros is an explicit retcon as he shows up in BFA, the machine of death is broken in legion, and the blue people explicitly don’t then around even if it means throwing souls directly into the maw.

Carain simply Can not be in ororbos without the events of BFA being retconned with how the lore is currently laid out.

So, the Fel can send you to the Twisting Nether with a sufficient amount to physically warp you, but not the Light?

with the events we have right now that would seem to be the case yes.

We have had the light intervene on death (uther) and then go to the shadow land, we have had paladins killed with parts of a Naaru and then sent to the afterlife in a explosion of immense light aligning with all the dead pallys of lights hope and go to the shadow lands (morgrain) and so on.

The only case of any one ever going to the light is a Naaru snatching up the soul pre death.

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That is, again, limited by her assumptions and the scale of her knowledge. You're assuming she is being given more information than she is—and, again, they are capable of showing her a particular microcosm which may not strictly necessitate the macrocosm of any given situation. This is all based on hugely circumstantial and very likely skewed information. Let's also not forget the detail of Zovaal specifically whispering to the Val'kyr right before Sylvanas left.

This is what we in the business call "Argumentum ad infinitum"—you are needlessly extending the argument in hopes that I'll concede my point based on exhaustion alone instead of accepting that you're wrong and moving on.

Even with a limited pool of knowledge she has the ability to go to any one she had ever met who had a family which is a huge pool when you are hundreds of years old and got around a lot in life, so while she obviously wouldn’t get the full picture she’s wasn’t at all lacking the needed info to get a good idea of the shadowlands.

Also not sure why I do do t remember this before as it would have saved time, pelegious confirms her views when he comes the arbiter and says he’s going to change the system so people can be together if they want to be and that the new system won’t be the same unfeeling one that came before.

[Fahrad Wagner]

I think we're losing focus a little here, this is not a lore+ thread but a thread to discuss the new expansion. I see that the new alchemy items have been datamined, they're pretty cool! Is anyone expecting something specific for a certain profession? I'm really curious as to what tailors will get aside from scissors!

[Le Conceptuel]

I think we're losing focus a little here, this is not a lore+ thread but a thread to discuss the new expansion. I see that the new alchemy items have been datamined, they're pretty cool! Is anyone expecting something specific for a certain profession? I'm really curious as to what tailors will get aside from scissors!

Still looking most forward to that profession rework—this all has my fascination.

[Aucald]

I was suggesting the supposed heir mentioned in this this could be a Black Dragon—it's not confirmed, just common and fairly believable pleblore. It is also entirely possible that the Scarlet Brotherhood is entirely making up their supposed heir. We know fairly certainly that it's not the real heir, though, because we know that Calia had a daughter and not a son.

Ah, I always consigned these pamphlets to the "flavor lore" bin with no real canonicity, given the raft of canon falsehoods present in them (e.g. Anduin having a dalliance with Sylvanas, Sylvanas even being involved in Calia's resurrection, etc.) That and Calia having had a daughter makes that whole screed pretty much just Scarlet propaganda.

[Le Conceptuel]

Also not sure why I do do t remember this before as it would have saved time, pelegious confirms her views when he comes the arbiter and says he’s going to change the system so people can be together if they want to be and that the new system won’t be the same unfeeling one that came before.

If that's the case, I'll have to concede the point. What's the exact quote? If it's really that way, I'll definitely have been wrong and will have to eat crow.

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Ah, I always consigned these pamphlets to the "flavor lore" bin with no real canonicity, given the raft of canon falsehoods present in them (e.g. Anduin having a dalliance with Sylvanas, Sylvanas even being involved in Calia's resurrection, etc.) That and Calia having had a daughter makes that whole screed pretty much just Scarlet propaganda.

Wholly possible. People have been speculating about that a great deal, but it really is wholly possible that Blizzard wrote those as jokes at the expense of conspiracy theorists more than anything, especially provided how they're clearly written in a way intended to ape that sort of writing (such as the all-caps statements, the lunatic theories and absolute disconnection with reality etc.)

The theory is that the Scarlet Brotherhood may actually have a supposed heir who is a Black Dragon in disguise and the whole thing isn't just lunatic conspiracy theories, and that mostly relies on law of conservation of detail. It's wholly up in the air whether or not it's actual foreshadowing hidden in a conspiracy-laden pamphlet or if it's just another one of numerous conspiracy theory jokes. It's certainly a very odd thing to specifically highlight and mention, I think, but it really could just be an odd choice.

[Berkilak]

That seems more in-line with Turalyon's characterization than "lol Yellow Garrosh"—the Cold War-esque paranoia and territorial defensiveness seems more strictly like what would make sense.

On alpha, he does get a line about retaking Stromgarde and idly wondering what other former territories can be retaken. Chekhov's Manifest Destiny right there.

[unfunnymeme]

Steve was never the problem. Afrasiabi was.

"fractals within patterns" Dickhead is absolutely a problem.
Afrasiabi was always an ass, but anuser is pure liquid shit. He's shit on and thrown out every single thing in the story that came before him to the point that's very easy to say that Shadowlands was a soft-reboot of the entire franchise. Made up bullshit about what the Shadowlands even is, random bullshit magic that doesn't fit within any of the previously established lore(Shadowlands isn't even really the plane of death anymore, it's the plane of anima).

Until he's gone and they straight up de-canonize SL, there's no redeemable aspect within the WoW story. All it has is gameplay.

[Aucald]

On alpha, he does get a line about retaking Stromgarde and idly wondering what other former territories can be retaken. Chekhov's Manifest Destiny right there.

Stromgarde appears to have been retaken as of BfA, and with the Alliance as the canon winners of the Warfront there, I'd assume they're rebuilding apace. Given Dragonflight's likely focus on the Dragon Isles, though, I would doubt we'd see any real updates to former Alliance holdings until the next expansion, or later on in the 10.x patch cycle if the story strays from its focus on the Dragon Isles (like MoP did in the 5.3.x Escalation arc).

[Nymrohd]

On alpha, he does get a line about retaking Stromgarde and idly wondering what other former territories can be retaken. Chekhov's Manifest Destiny right there.

Last time Turalyon was on Azeroth, Stromgarde was part of the Alliance and home of one of his best friends. That's no manifest destiny. Especially given Stromgarde is not really claimed by anyone.

[Berkilak]

Stromgarde appears to have been retaken as of BfA, and with the Alliance as the canon winners of the Warfront there, I'd assume they're rebuilding apace. Given Dragonflight's likely focus on the Dragon Isles, though, I would doubt we'd see any real updates to former Alliance holdings until the next expansion, or later on in the 10.x patch cycle if the story strays from its focus on the Dragon Isles (like MoP did in the 5.3.x Escalation arc).

I wouldn't expect any immediate action. But that is nevertheless a very deliberate thread.

I'm also pretty convinced that Khadgar will die this expansion or the next. They go out of their way to have him mention that he's feeling old and tired. That's pretty much broadcasting a death (or "creative retirement").

[Aucald]

I wouldn't expect any immediate action. But that is nevertheless a very deliberate thread.

I'm also pretty convinced that Khadgar will die this expansion or the next. They go out of their way to have him mention that he's feeling old and tired. That's pretty much broadcasting a death (or "creative retirement").

I would be surprised as well if Khadgar makes it through Dragonflight alive, given his speech in Shadowlands.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

If that's the case, I'll have to concede the point. What's the exact quote? If it's really that way, I'll definitely have been wrong and will have to eat crow.

There are a few mentions through out ZM but here’s the easiest one to find without digging through quest about him changing how judging is going to work.

When I became the new Arbiter, I vowed to myself that I would listen to those around me, to take their counsel into consideration before passing eternal judgment.

https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Penance_and_Renewal

[Le Conceptuel]

There are a few mentions through out ZM but here’s the easiest one to find without digging through quest about him changing how judging is going to work.



https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Penance_and_Renewal

Yes, but that's not the quote I was looking for. The precise quote is whichever one states explicitly that it is the case that people are separated and that is one of the things he wants to resolve.

Reading over it again, though, I do find it very silly that he legitimately decided that people should simply be exempt from judgment. It would makes sense if they chose their destiny in, say, the Catholic sense where seeking redemption always leads you to find it, but the way he puts it sounds like he'll just let anybody give input on their fate in an almost advisory sense. It's a little weird that the Arbiter's judgment isn't objective, as otherwise there would be no need to take input from people where they go.

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I would be surprised as well if Khadgar makes it through Dragonflight alive, given his speech in Shadowlands.

I think that much is a foregone conclusion, frankly, given all the transparent death flags.

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Last time Turalyon was on Azeroth, Stromgarde was part of the Alliance and home of one of his best friends. That's no manifest destiny. Especially given Stromgarde is not really claimed by anyone.

That's quite fair. I do find "reclaiming lost territories" to be a red flag in general, though—there was a certain funny fellow in Europe who had the same idea, and he overstepped his boundaries a little bit down the line. Add to that how Stromgarde was his example of territories that were already reclaimed, not territories that could be reclaimed.

I do think he's not going to follow entirely down the path of that aforementioned funny fellow, however. Conversely, I do think that his attempts to reclaim territory will be met with some apprehension—especially if, say, Lordaeron enters the picture.

[Aucald]

I think that much is a foregone conclusion, frankly, given all the transparent death flags.

I would even go so far as to wager that Khadgar will be the NPC sacrifice that will serve to legitimize whoever (or whatever) the big bad of Dragonflight proves to be. So he'll likely be killed in Dragonflight's opening act at some point, and from there we'll have a strong narrative rationale for taking the fight to the enemy du jour.