Dragonflight Alpha/Beta General Discussion

[Paula Deen]

I remained skeptical of the release window here. Perhaps they are being cheeky for the data miners, but the same kind of things were happening in the SL Beta and it got delayed before they announced release. The only difference here is that with the lack of music that makes me think they are just withholding things at this point, especially with the login screen and music getting dropped as soon as it was needed.

Either way, I feel like this is a strong return to form ever since WoD flopped they have seemingly been afraid to move forward without new major game systems. This is the first time since then that I feel like I won't be overwhelmed with new power systems.

The difference here, from the beta presentation so far, seems to be that there is a plethora of world content to actually engage with unlike WoD.

[Skildar]

Nah I think that maybe in order to fully birth a new cosmology they need to die. They are like cosmic male kalutas, expending all their energy in creating a new generation. I truly think the First Ones are dead. It works better for them to be dead, especially if we end up having to oppose the Titans; it leaves us against the Seventh Force alone with Azeroth.

Thanks for the knowledge on kalutas, what a life
It does work fine to have the first ones dead but it also make an endless source of threats and new environments to have them alive

[Auxis]

Cosmogonic myths often establish something existing before reality is created. Whatever that something is, will imo be the Seventh Force. It is what was displaced to make room for Reality. Originally I thought it was the Devourers. Now I assume it's whatever that great serpent watching us from space was.

Care to elaborate on this 'great serpent'? Do you mean the serpent symbol that is used throughout WoW? (The one on Azeroth's Dark Portal, the 2 serpents eating each other in the Broker's version of the Cosmology chart, and the one used in Ourobos - the serpent symbol itself that looks like the Dark Portal one, and the winding serpent body/scale motifs in certain parts)

[Nymrohd]

Care to elaborate on this 'great serpent'? Do you mean the serpent symbol that is used throughout WoW? (The one on Azeroth's Dark Portal, the 2 serpents eating each other in the Broker's version of the Cosmology chart, and the one used in Ourobos - the serpent symbol itself that looks like the Dark Portal one, and the winding serpent body/scale motifs in certain parts)

https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Sta...ion_Invasions)
https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Damp_Pamphlet
It's mentioned elsewhere, will have to find it.

[Auxis]

https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Sta...ion_Invasions)
https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Damp_Pamphlet
It's mentioned elsewhere, will have to find it.

Interesting. It's similar to the "Black goat with seven eyes watching from the outside."

Black goat with seven eyes seemed like a red herring towards Y'shaarj somehow still being alive or somewhere (it was allegedly ripped out by Aman'thul, who knows where its body is. It should have a brain and eyes. It's heart may have been destroyed but it's head was still intact in theory. Maybe the Titans imprisoned his remains outisde of Azeroth (ie. in the sky/space somewhere) because Old Gods are notoriously difficult to "kill").

But seven eyes? Seventh force? Outside?
Crooked serpent in the sky with no eyes devouring stars?
Hmmmmmm

[Jaggler]

https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Sta...ion_Invasions)
https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Damp_Pamphlet
It's mentioned elsewhere, will have to find it.

Could be an entity, could be the "Void" as a force or in its entire being itself. It certainly fits the decription we had about the Void constantly seeing every possible future and past

[Le Conceptuel]

See here is the thing. At no point do the notes state that the Pantheon is actually the Pantheon of Order. They are still creatures of the Physical Realm. It's just that Order WON their attention and alignment early on. The Six Forces are at war. EVERYONE was likely trying to recruit the Titans in their way. The Void Lords very clearly are trying to do this; that's the entire plan with the Old Gods and the glee of Xal to get a foothold in the Seat of the Pantheon. The entire Nathrezim plot in Death lead to that; not just to knock the Arbiter out but then to create a new one powered by a Titan Soul.

My opinion is this. The universe is an experiment by the First Ones and the Titans are the desired end product. They set up six forces and then the physical reality for them to interact in. The APEX result of that interaction is the Pantheon (and above them all, Azeroth). Xal'atath suggests that the war between Void and Light and likely the war between all the forces has lasted far longer than the Pantheon existed.

When the Titans came to be the force that managed to get them on their side was Order. Some element of Order (possibly the Constellar) brought the Titans to Zereth Ordos, taught them the Purpose but through Order's lense and let them go.

That seems implausible, even though the theory itself is quite interesting, given that Blizzard has established them so thoroughly as beings of Order in themselves, and are on record referring to a "Titan homeworld" (presumably meant to be Zereth Ordos)—then again, if there's one thing we've learned, it's that past precedent has entirely no meaning with this new lore. We're all on Blizzard's Wild Ride and it never seems to end. At the very least this theory constitutes an earnest attempt to reconcile old characterization and lore with new characterization and lore, and it's honestly quite clever and would be a nice out that allows for the relative best of both worlds, but I generally wouldn't say that's the direction they're headed in and, if it were, it's about as likely as them doing literally anything at all given the dartboard-tier plot direction we've experienced thus far.

I do like this theory, though. It does explain why Azeroth is so crucial to every Cosmic Force in some capacity or another, and it further explains things such as Eonar's dominion over life (though, of course, the Doylist explanation is that Blizzard forgot about this old, more Kitchen Sink fantasy lore and left all sorts of awkward holes open when trying to segregate all forms of magic across a set of six "cosmic forces") being feasible. It at least reconciles everything neatly, even if it requires suspending your disbelief for yet another major retcon that has the specter of the obvious Doylist fact of "we were making it up as we went along, created an irreconcilable set of facts, and had to make something up to make it seem like it wasn't just a big accidental retcon and to make it work" hanging over it.

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Interesting. It's similar to the "Black goat with seven eyes watching from the outside."

Black goat with seven eyes seemed like a red herring towards Y'shaarj somehow still being alive or somewhere (it was allegedly ripped out by Aman'thul, who knows where its body is. It should have a brain and eyes. It's heart may have been destroyed but it's head was still intact in theory. Maybe the Titans imprisoned his remains outisde of Azeroth (ie. in the sky/space somewhere) because Old Gods are notoriously difficult to "kill").

But seven eyes? Seventh force? Outside?
Crooked serpent in the sky with no eyes devouring stars?
Hmmmmmm

I envision the Crooked Serpent as a Void Lord or, perhaps, a corrupted Titan. If it's the former, it's probably one of the more physical and malicious of the Void Lords, the one closest to "evil" as we perceive it, solely going off the air of cruelty and depravity the language evokes.

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Cosmogonic myths often establish something existing before reality is created. Whatever that something is, will imo be the Seventh Force. It is what was displaced to make room for Reality. Originally I thought it was the Devourers. Now I assume it's whatever that great serpent watching us from space was.

This is another awkward instance of the redundancy that Blizzard has accidentally produced with all this First Ones nonsense. In addition to the First Ones being wholly redundant with the Titans save for being nebulously Bigger and Better, the preceding force you describe is effectively the Void, but Bigger and Badder.

[Xilurm]

This is from Wrath Classic.

Please tell me this isn't a thing in DF... Please...

[Le Conceptuel]

This is from Wrath Classic.

Please tell me this isn't a thing in DF... Please...

It isn't. They have an NPC serving as a precise ship timer, actually, so they're even making it more convenient to use boats normally.

[Xilurm]

It isn't. They have an NPC serving as a precise ship timer, actually, so they're even making it more convenient to use boats normally.

Ok thank God. I was so happy they're adding more boats but got worried when I saw this. Also apparently this is because of an issue at the start of wrath, but they haven't removed it yet. Sad.

[Le Conceptuel]

https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Sta...ion_Invasions)
https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Damp_Pamphlet
It's mentioned elsewhere, will have to find it.

Hungry for the cloak of skulls, the eyeless serpent waits—
Orchestrates the rage and culls to groom her nascent hate.
Breeding dreadful, vile traits and prodding on her soul
The serpent plies its trade and spawns the wars in whole.

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I call bullshit. We've done the side by side comparison so many times. ANd when people are pressed for details it fast becomes clear that it's not that the old models were gritier etc. it is that the lower resolution allowed your mind more leeway to fill in the details. It's easy to interpret messy polygons and blurry textures into dirt and gore. Your mind just fills in the blanks. The earlier charm was not actually there and very literally is all in your brain. Which is no fault of your own, that's how the brain functions.

Incorrect. I've gone over the very obvious and tangible differences in design direction numerous times already. I've pointed this out ad nauseum with the Gnoll model, and I could do so with functionally any model you show me. You can give me any model which has been the nexus of controversy, and I can very plainly articulate every difference in art direction. I could even illustrate the differences, if you'd like.

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Turalyon would be a good "Light Garrosh" with Velen his Vol'jin (or Sylvanas' Saurfang)

I'd be annoyed at a waste of potential if that happened. Turalyon works better as a representative of a harsher, more violent direction for the Alliance than a Loot Pinata. The only reason to want to see Turalyon villain batted would be for some notion of factional fairness—the best story would be produced from allowing him to represent a more nuanced angle of the Alliance.

[Revamp Man]

I think that Avaloren -> Avalon and we should expect more Arthurian story. With Knights of Round Table, normal Maiden of the Lake, Camelot and Excalibur. With that new Keeper Innaria being new King Arthur lying on death door and all of that.

I hope so much for this

[Kiivar86]

People talking about Avaloren/Avalon. There is a scarlet crusade town in the DK starting zone that's called "new avalon". So we might be visiting the "old" avalon? Might be a scarlet crusade stronghold?

I doubt it, likely just a case of similar names. For one, while Avaloren seems to draw its name from Avalon, it isn't named Avalon.

And I mean, this is Blizzard, they of "wait we already have a Hakkar?" fame.

[Revamp Man]

Idk what the Titans are
Idk if they are just blank slates that can be effected by cosmic forces but that kinda makes sense with sargeras and Argus
Ysera supposedly got her power from eonar but is Elune's pet according to the winter queen.
I believe that Azeroth and Argus are different from the Titans we know of and if they are blank slates that can be imprinted on by cosmic forces then this definitely makes sense.

Let's say the first titan was born of order and proceeded to wake the others then that would explain the pantheon of order. This also explains why varimathras is still not dead.

[Lahis]

Idk what the Titans are
Idk if they are just blank slates that can be effected by cosmic forces but that kinda makes sense with sargeras and Argus
Ysera supposedly got her power from eonar but is Elune's pet according to the winter queen.
I believe that Azeroth and Argus are different from the Titans we know of and if they are blank slates that can be imprinted on by cosmic forces then this definitely makes sense.

Let's say the first titan was born of order and proceeded to wake the others then that would explain the pantheon of order. This also explains why varimathras is still not dead.

Raw magic can influence the nature of just about anything. Sargeras was turned into Fel Titan, Nathrezim began as Death beigns but were turned into demons by fel exposure.

On Azeroth the arcane energy from Well of Eternity first turned trolls intl Night Elves, and then several different magics changed the elves further into different form. Malfurion's druidic mutations are an example of life maguc changing a beign.

[Xilurm]

If Order has the Titans, what does Disorder have? I mean without Sargeras since he clearly came from Order.

[Revamp Man]

Raw magic can influence the nature of just about anything. Sargeras was turned into Fel Titan, Nathrezim began as Death beigns but were turned into demons by fel exposure.

On Azeroth the arcane energy from Well of Eternity first turned trolls intl Night Elves, and then several different magics changed the elves further into different form. Malfurion's druidic mutations are an example of life maguc changing a beign.

So the Nathrezim are interesting to me because we have one that died a demon and got resurrected on Argus then killed again which for demons would mean permanent death but we see again in Shadowlands

So while raw magic can effect a being does the precedent set by the dreadlords mean they are still at their core beings of their original force

Is Argus a blank slate thus the death magic he was being infused with set him up as a being of death

Are unborn titans like Azeroth far more powerful because of their potential compared to beings with an origin based in a cosmic force.

The first hint we got of the universe preceding the Titans was actually thanks to Argus from the thousand years war book where he existed before memory.

I need to level on beta again and record the part where we travel to nyalotha

[Sondrelk]

If Order has the Titans, what does Disorder have? I mean without Sargeras since he clearly came from Order.

Primordial demons presumably. Hard to tell, would work equally well if Disorder didnt have anyone leading them, and it was complete anarchy. Still feel there are extremely strong demons who we have not seen though. As evil as they presumably are, I doubt they would all willingly accept Sargeras' offer of conquest if it meant serving under someone else.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

If Order has the Titans, what does Disorder have? I mean without Sargeras since he clearly came from Order.

Wouldn’t be surprised if by the powers very nature they don’t all it pantheons as such.

Like at the start order has a few big members and no small members to stay orderly and disorder has no big leaders hit tons of little demons for maximum disorder.

[Xilurm]

Wouldn’t be surprised if by the powers very nature they don’t all it pantheons as such.

Like at the start order has a few big members and no small members to stay orderly and disorder has no big leaders hit tons of little demons for maximum disorder.

Would make sense. It also gives me hope that if Elune by any chance is part of the plane of Life, she's the only one there. With all the wild gods being her followers. Really, not every plane needs a Pantheon.