Dragonflight Alpha/Beta General Discussion

[shoc]

This exactly. I want Blizz to be the company I thought it was 10 years ago, haha.

I for one am glad that we are growing out of our childhood ignorance of what a 'good' game dev company is.

[Dracullus]

Doomsday Scenario

Looks like worst case scenario is occuring, 9 month drought with no information. No way in hell we get any news a week after the patch in December.

How many time we must repeat it, dates from PTR/Betas are not source of info. Also first Legion timewalking will be 2 weeks special event, not part of rotation.

Also 5 seconds of reading comments under this post and you have clear answer: "The original date for Legion Timewalking was Nov 2nd in the early PTR builds. That Legion timewalking date has been moved forward every week since." Whole thing is automated, but they turn it manually every week for testing and it mess with calendar.

[Sondrelk]

I don't know I've never been on the "Cut & Run" train. Probably never will, honestly. I understand that this wait has been mindbreaking for some. But, we're almost at the end of this darkness and I feel it is weird to advocate for anti consumerism while allowing Blizzard Entertainment a way out every expansion by just leaving us in the dark for 5-6 months before they can then proceed to announce the current expansion is ending without backlash.

This is Blizzards one real chance to do it though. Covid is still the most significant social event since the terrorist attacks on the World Trade Center, and arguably even more impactful on an individual level.
Blizzard cannot realistically pull the same thing later without a similar good excuse.

[Foreign Exchange Ztudent]

This is Blizzards one real chance to do it though. Covid is still the most significant social event since the terrorist attacks on the World Trade Center, and arguably even more impactful on an individual level.
Blizzard cannot realistically pull the same thing later without a similar good excuse.

You're still going to pull a slot machine for the features of the next expansion that you have no control over. Playing with the 9.1.5 patch and having additional content is a better situation than to again let the System Designers throw their gigantic iceberg in front of the expansion and not move it prior to launch out of ego issues.

Sure buy your $70-$120 Collector's Edition preorders and think you get anything of value. I think it's insane to want to do that after this whole situation. When you have no guarantee you're getting 3 Major Patches and 2 Minor Patches and the company in question is withhelding said information on the product you purchased for their benefit while you're paying a monthly subscription to encourage the mindset of "letting go" of the current expansion.

[AngerFork]

This is Blizzards one real chance to do it though. Covid is still the most significant social event since the terrorist attacks on the World Trade Center, and arguably even more impactful on an individual level.
Blizzard cannot realistically pull the same thing later without a similar good excuse.

If anything, I'd argue it's a better thing for them to use to release 10.0 a bit later & make it as good as possible. Try to sweep up the issues of Shadowlands under the rug using the COVID work situation as an excuse, it'll at least work to a certain extent. Mention that you are getting your team setup in place after the leadership departures & adjustments for COVID, then work on the expansion with some of the extra time while giving/taking feedback from PTR & rebuilding trust with the player base.

Cutting Shadowlands short on a cut & run only serves to erode that trust which is already extremely low. Putting out a 9.2 with good content & no stupid systems will go a long way towards making sure 10.0 has the excitement & hype it needs to thrive.

[Aeluron Lightsong]

How many time we must repeat it, dates from PTR/Betas are not source of info. Also first Legion timewalking will be 2 weeks special event, not part of rotation.

Also 5 seconds of reading comments under this post and you have clear answer: "The original date for Legion Timewalking was Nov 2nd in the early PTR builds. That Legion timewalking date has been moved forward every week since." Whole thing is automated, but they turn it manually every week for testing and it mess with calendar.

Its only been close to 3 months(Going on 4 months) since 9.1 released so.... in the next few months we'll probably hear something soon.

[draugril]

Is there a corporation that looks at the long term? They all want as much money as possible, right now.

There are some that look at both.

You don't get to look at the long-term if you don't look at the short-term, though.

[Paperfox]

If there is any conflict between profits and income vs game features and player experience, Blizz will always choose the former unless and until it impacts it. This is something every corporation has to do.

It's too bad people don't look at this from a customer perspective. They typically have 3 patches per expansion that add content to the game, if Blizz cuts from that then they are not delivering value for the customer's money.

My pet theory is that they banked on the goodwill of dedicated players to keep the lights on who would be happy with whatever Blizz throws to them, this frees Blizz up to focus on the whales and world first crowd to rake in the profits at the start of the expansion. Maybe with all the people leaving they'll realize that they need to make content for them too.

Que sera, sera.

[Aeluron Lightsong]

If there is any conflict between profits and income vs game features and player experience, Blizz will always choose the former unless and until it impacts it. This is something every corporation has to do.

It's too bad people don't look at this from a customer perspective. They typically have 3 patches per expansion that add content to the game, if Blizz cuts from that then they are not delivering value for the customer's money.

My pet theory is that they banked on the goodwill of dedicated players to keep the lights on who would be happy with whatever Blizz throws to them, this frees Blizz up to focus on the whales and world first crowd to rake in the profits at the start of the expansion. Maybe with all the people leaving they'll realize that they need to make content for them too.

Que sera, sera.

A company is filled with individuals and not a hivemind. I don't think the cynical take that Blizzard doesn't care about WoW.

[Lahis]

A company is filled with individuals and not a hivemind. I don't think the cynical take that Blizzard doesn't care about WoW.

There are devs that care. ;But they are not the people who make the financial decisions like release dates.

[Raetary]

A company is filled with individuals and not a hivemind. .

Which is irrelevant as only a handful of those individuals actually call the shots.
And those ones are not the actual devs.

[Slowpoke is a Gamer]

You guys do realize 10.0 is likely just Light and Shadow (With some Legion/Titan plots), yeah?

We're overthinking it because none of us want another cosmic storyline. We're tired of it, we've been doing it now for basically 3.5 expansions (BFA being the .5).

And also because I think recent events has us rethinking the common theory of "Ah ha Y'rel is the next villain." Because that would be a bad look.

[Makabreska]

We're overthinking it because none of us want another cosmic storyline. We're tired of it, we've been doing it now for basically 3.5 expansions (BFA being the .5).

And also because I think recent events has us rethinking the common theory of "Ah ha Y'rel is the next villain." Because that would be a bad look.

I mean, she defo makes a villainous comeback along with Naaru and another inter planetary/dimensional xpac, but I would just prefer something more grounded now.

[Paperfox]

A company is filled with individuals and not a hivemind. I don't think the cynical take that Blizzard doesn't care about WoW.

Things are different for people who work at a corporation, and others may not be familiar with it.

Annual Performance Reviews, Goals and Objectives
The CEO together with the Executive Team create a corporate vision, ie: they decide where they want the corporation to go in the next fiscal year so they can best fulfill their 5 Year Plan. This vision is broken down into a series of goals and objectives which is modified for each unit/division/region/department to meet. The heads of the units will break them down further so that every employee will get goals and objectives that support the corporate vision. If an employee doesn't meet them then their performance review(s) will not be pleasant.

You are correct the company is filled with individuals, their position in the company is what determines how much creative freedom they have.

There's a belief that if you do something you love, you'll never work a day in your life. The issue is that you'll pay to do something you love, so isn't it better to do something you're good at and get paid for it? If you are a writer then you've heard of the saying: "Inspiration is for amateurs". The devs still need to eat and pay rent, regardless of how much they love WoW.

[Ersula]

We're overthinking it because none of us want another cosmic storyline. We're tired of it, we've been doing it now for basically 3.5 expansions (BFA being the .5).

And also because I think recent events has us rethinking the common theory of "Ah ha Y'rel is the next villain." Because that would be a bad look.

While I love cosmic fantasy, I am expecting an expansion based on traditional RPG motifs. Perhaps a revamp of Azeroth that *isn't* focused on the faction war. Likely later turning into a Light/Void conflict. And since they refuse to leave the formula of "Which iconic warcraft character will be evil this time?" I'd point at Turalyon & Alleria. They melt a dude's brain in front of his children at the end of the latest novel. That & Alleria's obsession with the sunwell seems totally delusional given her void connection.

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I mean I have to question how people think after Blizz has failed spectacularly to get 9.1 and 9.2 out "on schedule" that they'll somehow magically have an entire expansion (that most everyone thinks will include a full game revamp) done "on schedule."

We've already been feeling the result of the company problems, it started over a year ago with the layoffs. Layoffs, Covid & Lawsuits: The plot of Shadowlands is extremely complicated & they've done a pisspoor job at clarifying anything & that's the result. But they're not going to let the release schedule be affected by that, because that affects investor statistics more than anything. This is why they usually plan some sort of filler "troll" raid tier, which has already been abandoned for shadowlands. I imagine the "Battle for Ardenweald" & all the Elune stuff was supposed to be a fully thematic tier with a raid & everything

One more Major patch first or second quarter of 2022, then a new expansion in third or fourth quarter 2022. Same as it ever was.

The time between 9.0 & 9.1 was notably 7+ months & had no .5 patches. The inclusion of a .5 patch should tell you the time between 9.1 & 9.2 is going to be even longer

[TheFirstOnes]

We're overthinking it because none of us want another cosmic storyline. We're tired of it, we've been doing it now for basically 3.5 expansions (BFA being the .5).

And also because I think recent events has us rethinking the common theory of "Ah ha Y'rel is the next villain." Because that would be a bad look.

Why do you not want another Cosmic story? We're kinda past the mere "grounded" plots. BFA tried, and everyone + their mother knew the expac was secretly an Old God expansion, hell even Blizzard dropped the facade by 8.1.5 lol.

I'm definitely not tired of the storyline, however. I simply want the storyline to be better. Zovaal could easily be WoW's best villain, but he's not. He's underdeveloped and it sucks. The Eternal Ones aren't developed enough either to feel powerful. They're supposed to be Titan level, but no one thinks this because of A. Some conflicting interviews (Which shouldn't be the case regardless), and B. The game not allowing the Eternal Ones to feel as powerful as they should be (They did the same thing with the Titans, sadly).

I think us meeting these Cosmic Pantheons after years of growing as the champion of Azeroth is cool, and I think us now reaching divine levels to where we're talking about the Architects/Creators of the Warcraft Cosmos and are going to their Sepulcher to save all the Cosmic Realms, the Balance of the Forces, etc is nice. I just wish it was done better. WoW has NEVER been good as writing a story such as this, and the only reason FFXIV is so good at it is due to them having 13+ games of RPG experience, while WoW only really has 1 good RPG-prior story-wise. WoW also puts most of its story in books, so lots of people end up being confused regardless, and it sucks.

Lots of people also don't like characters such as Sylvanas, and how they basically takeover the narrative, despite the fact that Zovaal's our main antagonist for SL. It's stupid. I don't care about the Azerothians, I wanna know more about the big bad. I don't like Sylvanas, I don't want to listen to her "master plan", I wanna see why Zovaal dislikes the Cosmic Balance designed by the First Ones, I wanna know why the First Ones balanced and likely crafted the primal Cosmic Powers, why did they make the Universe? Why did they decide that they wanted to do more with their forces which originally started their existences in strife? I want answers to all these crazy Cosmic questions, I wanna see the First Ones be as interesting as the Titans, I think we kinda deserve answers now lol. But no, SL ends up being very weird and still rather unexplored, because the narrative is so bent on shit like Sylvanas, Tyrande, and Anduin, that the actual good shit is overlapped and the Cosmic Beings feel rather ignored, or unexplored in their powers. So, when Zovaal controls Anduin as his vessel, the Archon feels fucking weak, and it doesn't feel justified, since she's supposed to be "Titan level". I know a drought is still going on, but they literally almost never explore this either.

I'm sick of us wanting to go back to the grounded storylines. That won't fix WoW's flawed narrative. WoW simply needs to not tell their fucking story in games, or hire writers that think the Cosmic Plots would be so much better if you throw in "grounded" mortal affairs in the middle of it all. It's dumb. Only worked in Legion, cause KJ and Archimonde were established badasses and they didn't feel like they overlapped the narrative with Sargeras. Doesn't work here, cause Anduin and Sylvanas have a much greater impact than the Jailer, rather than the other way around.

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WoW's story should be told in RPG's, or in an animated/live action series with multiple movies in the middle of it. Warcraft alone can make a whole ass cinematic universe, if it wanted to. I feel like the story would work so much more, then.

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While I love cosmic fantasy, I am expecting an expansion based on traditional RPG motifs. Perhaps a revamp of Azeroth that *isn't* focused on the faction war. Likely later turning into a Light/Void conflict. And since they refuse to leave the formula of "Which iconic warcraft character will be evil this time?" I'd point at Turalyon & Alleria. They melt a dude's brain in front of his children at the end of the latest novel. That & Alleria's obsession with the sunwell seems totally delusional given her void connection.

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We've already been feeling the result of the company problems, it started over a year ago with the layoffs. Layoffs, Covid & Lawsuits: The plot of Shadowlands is extremely complicated & they've done a pisspoor job at clarifying anything & that's the result. But they're not going to let the release schedule be affected by that, because that affects investor statistics more than anything. This is why they usually plan some sort of filler "troll" raid tier, which has already been abandoned for shadowlands. I imagine the "Battle for Ardenweald" & all the Elune stuff was supposed to be a fully thematic tier with a raid & everything

One more Major patch first or second quarter of 2022, then a new expansion in third or fourth quarter 2022. Same as it ever was.

The time between 9.0 & 9.1 was notably 7+ months & had no .5 patches. The inclusion of a .5 patch should tell you the time between 9.1 & 9.2 is going to be even longer

If you wanna argue 10.0 stuff, I seriously hope they don't force the Plane of Life as 10.0's plot. I just want the Life/Death plotline to end with SL. Seems fair. Then, you can explore Light and Shadow with 10.0, and even finish off the Sargeras plotline, and give us the Realm of Order as a mini hub or as part of a mini raid.

[Sondrelk]

Why do you not want another Cosmic story? We're kinda past the mere "grounded" plots. BFA tried, and everyone + their mother knew the expac was secretly an Old God expansion, hell even Blizzard dropped the facade by 8.1.5 lol.

Grounded plots are interesting because for one, Blizzard can make really interesting stuff with it when the cosmic stuff is used as a topping instead of full dish. And secondly because it's far more difficult to really mess up grounded plots.

There is also the simple fact that cosmic plots require a far more grand stage than the grounded plots. And for that matter reusing old areaas and assets usually ends poorly if it has to mesh with cosmic stuff.
Take Grim Batol for instance. Currently all but abandoned narratively. If you want cosmic war stuff then you need to write the story down to that level, whereas if you just take the area for what it is then you can write almost anything.
Similarly, if you start the story wanting to bring in Archimonde and hitherto unmentioned demon lords of the Twisting Nether then you cannot place that just anywhere, nor can you just write it as a simple one-off storyline. Conversely a storyline about bandits channeling demonic powers can take place anywhere, and can be written as everything from a single questline, zone-spanning event, or even a greater storyline taking place over several zones.

Grounded plots are simply easier to write, and for that matter easier to consume, and even if it was the same amount of effort that went into both then players do actually sometimes want to go around Azeroth helping a group of farmers reestablish their old family homestead in the Plaguelands instead of spending ages learning the deep lore of Naaru and their lifecycle with the Void.

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Also, the idea that the story cannot go back to being about anything less than constant end of the world threats is absolute bull. The story has calmed down several times after what is supposed to be world-ending events. The main pitch of WoW was afterall always that you could go and see the day-to-day lives of the inhabitants of Azeroth after several cosmic and intergalactic wars.

BfA might have ended with cosmic bullshit, but that still doesnt remove the fact that the levelling zones all had very much grounded plots dealing with everything from roving pirates to supremacist desert snakes.
The game can absolutely scale down from cosmic threats, all it needs is to not dive straight back into it.

[Fahrad Wagner]

Grounded plots are interesting because for one, Blizzard can make really interesting stuff with it when the cosmic stuff is used as a topping instead of full dish. And secondly because it's far more difficult to really mess up grounded plots.

There is also the simple fact that cosmic plots require a far more grand stage than the grounded plots. And for that matter reusing old areaas and assets usually ends poorly if it has to mesh with cosmic stuff.
Take Grim Batol for instance. Currently all but abandoned narratively. If you want cosmic war stuff then you need to write the story down to that level, whereas if you just take the area for what it is then you can write almost anything.
Similarly, if you start the story wanting to bring in Archimonde and hitherto unmentioned demon lords of the Twisting Nether then you cannot place that just anywhere, nor can you just write it as a simple one-off storyline. Conversely a storyline about bandits channeling demonic powers can take place anywhere, and can be written as everything from a single questline, zone-spanning event, or even a greater storyline taking place over several zones.

Grounded plots are simply easier to write, and for that matter easier to consume, and even if it was the same amount of effort that went into both then players do actually sometimes want to go around Azeroth helping a group of farmers reestablish their old family homestead in the Plaguelands instead of spending ages learning the deep lore of Naaru and their lifecycle with the Void.

I couldn't agree more. I know the game is heading towards more cosmic storylines in the long term (or short term), but I really enjoy grounded storylines more. Or at least a good proportion of it, like 80% more grounded and 20% more epic. Too much epicness kills any feeling of awe, anticipation or excitement for me, but that's just my opinion.

[Vasoka]

Lol still no news, literally pathetic.

[TheFirstOnes]

Lol still no news, literally pathetic.

Patience, young one.

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Grounded plots are interesting because for one, Blizzard can make really interesting stuff with it when the cosmic stuff is used as a topping instead of full dish. And secondly because it's far more difficult to really mess up grounded plots.

There is also the simple fact that cosmic plots require a far more grand stage than the grounded plots. And for that matter reusing old areaas and assets usually ends poorly if it has to mesh with cosmic stuff.
Take Grim Batol for instance. Currently all but abandoned narratively. If you want cosmic war stuff then you need to write the story down to that level, whereas if you just take the area for what it is then you can write almost anything.
Similarly, if you start the story wanting to bring in Archimonde and hitherto unmentioned demon lords of the Twisting Nether then you cannot place that just anywhere, nor can you just write it as a simple one-off storyline. Conversely a storyline about bandits channeling demonic powers can take place anywhere, and can be written as everything from a single questline, zone-spanning event, or even a greater storyline taking place over several zones.

Grounded plots are simply easier to write, and for that matter easier to consume, and even if it was the same amount of effort that went into both then players do actually sometimes want to go around Azeroth helping a group of farmers reestablish their old family homestead in the Plaguelands instead of spending ages learning the deep lore of Naaru and their lifecycle with the Void.

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Also, the idea that the story cannot go back to being about anything less than constant end of the world threats is absolute bull. The story has calmed down several times after what is supposed to be world-ending events. The main pitch of WoW was afterall always that you could go and see the day-to-day lives of the inhabitants of Azeroth after several cosmic and intergalactic wars.

BfA might have ended with cosmic bullshit, but that still doesnt remove the fact that the levelling zones all had very much grounded plots dealing with everything from roving pirates to supremacist desert snakes.
The game can absolutely scale down from cosmic threats, all it needs is to not dive straight back into it.

I am not gonna lie to you, though some may have found BFA interesting, I legit don't think many people remember the grounded plots of BFA, etc. MoP was good...but even that had Cosmic stuff too, hell all of WoW's pretty cosmic at the end of the day.

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Bro, the First Ones need to get their Cosmic Forces in check. Tf they doin?