Dragonflight Alpha/Beta General Discussion

[Sondrelk]

"Azeroth is what the Iron Horde wanted" -> Final raid is not on Azeroth
"Azeroth is what the Legion wanted" -> Final raid is not on Azeroth
"Azeroth is what N'Zoth wanted, in an expansion called Battle for AZEROTH" -> Final raid is not on Azeroth

Actually now it's 3 times in a row where the final raid isn't taking place on Azeroth, Shadowlands will be the 4th.

Are you also one of the people who believed in this?

WoD still had HFC, at best the final raid would have taken place partially in Azeroth.
Legion had us on Argus, but again could have sent us back to Azeroth instead of the Seat of the Pantheon, we quite literally see Azeroth from the final boss room.
BfA is a fair example for sure, but even then there were many, me included, that didnt really think Blizzard was actually going to have such a drastic shift from Faction war to Old gods.

For this expansion however we do not have any obvious candidates for final raid, especially seeing as we are already going to Torghast for a raid, and it would just be silly to go there again for another final climactic battle.

On a greater level though. Of course people will speculate that the final raid will take us to Azeroth or some well known place like Stormwind. People generally like callbacks, and the concept of coming full circle in a story is on of the most tried and tested concepts we have. Why wouldnt it be a good idea for the finale of a faction war story dealing with death if Sylvanas attacked Stormwind intending to kill and raise the inhabitants?

[Varodoc]

WoD still had HFC, at best the final raid would have taken place partially in Azeroth.
Legion had us on Argus, but again could have sent us back to Azeroth instead of the Seat of the Pantheon, we quite literally see Azeroth from the final boss room.
BfA is a fair example for sure, but even then there were many, me included, that didnt really think Blizzard was actually going to have such a drastic shift from Faction war to Old gods.

For this expansion however we do not have any obvious candidates for final raid, especially seeing as we are already going to Torghast for a raid, and it would just be silly to go there again for another final climactic battle.

On a greater level though. Of course people will speculate that the final raid will take us to Azeroth or some well known place like Stormwind. People generally like callbacks, and the concept of coming full circle in a story is on of the most tried and tested concepts we have. Why wouldnt it be a good idea for the finale of a faction war story dealing with death if Sylvanas attacked Stormwind intending to kill and raise the inhabitants?

Because featuring Stormwind out of nowhere in the final raid of Shadowlands is obvious pandering to the Horde fanboys who are still salty over SoO, and that vexes me greatly.

[Sondrelk]

Because featuring Stormwind out of nowhere in the final raid of Shadowlands is obvious pandering to the Horde fanboys who are still salty over SoO, and that vexes me greatly.

It's about as out of nowhere as the actual raid we got was. Ny'alothaa randomly appears as a portal in one of two zones with no distinct cohesion with any zone in particular, disappearing just as easily.

Last faction war expansion we had we ended in Orgrimmar. So from the perspective it already fits.
Secondly thoughif we assume Sylvanas attacked somewhere because she wanted to raise the undead then why not go to Stormwind? It is an Alliance city, so she might get the support of a few Horde fencesitters, but more importantly it is where most of the Alliance is. From a raid design standpoint it also works, having several distinct areas like the docks, canals, keep, and perhaps most fittingly a giant graveyard rumored to be where Arthas is buried. It also has underground areas in the form fo the unused Stormwind Vaults that could be used for a few filler bosses and generally varied enviroments.

Stormwind made perfect sense as the final raid of a faction war expansion with Sylvanas. And the idea that the Horde are the only ones that wanted it is bullshit, the Alliance players wanted it just as much if not more.
SoO gave sso much stuff for Horde players, massive representation, updated enviroments, iconic bosses and areas, themed transmogs. I know several Alliance players that would have loved to get the same.

[Stardrift]

I'm onto something I believe. Hear me out

With recent PTR quests involving Odyn, I am convinced Galakrond will be resurrected by the Jailer, or somebody. He'll be the tie in to bringing the Jailer's ultimate goal in ending Azeroth and claiming her world soul.

Galakrond being the equivalent to Jormungandr from Norse mythology. Having been defeated at the hands of the Dragon aspects, in extension to the titan keepers of Northrend (Where Icecrown is located in, just overlooking Galakrond's corpse in the Dragonwastes, the same place Kel'thuzad was overseeing the resurrection of said corpse), who are also followers of Odyn.

It would make sense for Odyn to get indirectly involved in taking down Galakrond like that, especially after sacrificing his eye to view the Shadowlands and his death, at the hands of you guessed it, Galakrond.

Jailer shovels a load of anima into Galakrond, resurrecting him in order to thrust the end of all things upon Azeroth. With the return of Galakrond, who else do we look to for help? Those who last defeated him, of course! With Ysera's return, and Wrathion's most recent discovery of the Dragon Isles, where do you think we are headed in order to find a way to restore power to the Dragon Aspects??

[Cosmic Janitor]

For this expansion however we do not have any obvious candidates for final raid, especially seeing as we are already going to Torghast for a raid, and it would just be silly to go there again for another final climactic battle.

On a greater level though. Of course people will speculate that the final raid will take us to Azeroth or some well known place like Stormwind. People generally like callbacks, and the concept of coming full circle in a story is on of the most tried and tested concepts we have. Why wouldnt it be a good idea for the finale of a faction war story dealing with death if Sylvanas attacked Stormwind intending to kill and raise the inhabitants?

We could just fight in some First Ones facility in an unknown location in the shadowlands. I don't really see much issue with that or just fighting at the top of Oribos. I mean that is literally what we did in all the other recent expansions, fighting at some new location dear to the enemy.

[Nyel]

I'm onto something I believe. Hear me out

With recent PTR quests involving Odyn, I am convinced Galakrond will be resurrected by the Jailer, or somebody. He'll be the tie in to bringing the Jailer's ultimate goal in ending Azeroth and claiming her world soul.

Galakrond being the equivalent to Jormungandr from Norse mythology. Having been defeated at the hands of the Dragon aspects, in extension to the titan keepers of Northrend (Where Icecrown is located in, just overlooking Galakrond's corpse in the Dragonwastes, the same place Kel'thuzad was overseeing the resurrection of said corpse), who are also followers of Odyn.

It would make sense for Odyn to get indirectly involved in taking down Galakrond like that, especially after sacrificing his eye to view the Shadowlands and his death, at the hands of you guessed it, Galakrond.

Jailer shovels a load of anima into Galakrond, resurrecting him in order to thrust the end of all things upon Azeroth. With the return of Galakrond, who else do we look to for help? Those who last defeated him, of course! With Ysera's return, and Wrathion's most recent discovery of the Dragon Isles, where do you think we are headed in order to find a way to restore power to the Dragon Aspects??

Nice theory. Better than all of the space stuff with Brokers etc. Void Lords can stay away.

By the way... what if the Eye of Odyn is the Eye of the Jailer?

- - - Updated - - -

We could just fight in some First Ones facility in an unknown location in the shadowlands. I don't really see much issue with that or just fighting at the top of Oribos. I mean that is literally what we did in all the other recent expansions, fighting at some new location dear to the enemy.

Fighting in Orbios / Arbiter's room makes sense, but what purpose des Oribos serve for the Jailer on top of that? The gateway to Azeroth.

[Sondrelk]

We could just fight in some First Ones facility in an unknown location in the shadowlands. I don't really see much issue with that or just fighting at the top of Oribos. I mean that is literally what we did in all the other recent expansions, fighting at some new location dear to the enemy.

But why do that when we can go to some place that players are more familiar with. Loads of places on Azeroth that would be a nice fitting way to bring the theme of death full circle.

[Pebrocks The Warlock]

By the way... what if the Eye of Odyn is the Eye of the Jailer?

That was confirmed at Blizzconline.

[Raetary]

Finally some news.

The Primus looks like a hermit.

- - - Updated - - -

By the way... what if the Eye of Odyn is the Eye of the Jailer?

It is.

We've known that since Blizzcon (-line).

[Cosmic Janitor]

But why do that when we can go to some place that players are more familiar with. Loads of places on Azeroth that would be a nice fitting way to bring the theme of death full circle.

Why haven't we done it the last 3 times? Because it's not much of a concern?

[Nyel]

That was confirmed at Blizzconline.

Good to know, thank you.

[Sondrelk]

Why haven't we done it the last 3 times? Because it's not much of a concern?

In all those cases we went to places that we knew existed before the expansion even began. In the case of WoD it was a callback all the way to TBC with it being one of the most callback heavy raids we have.

We could go to Oribos or something, but it wouldnt really have the same impact that a place we know frrom before would have.

[Wrathson]

Good to know, thank you.

It's also confirmed in the new Dungeon Journal:

The Eye of the Jailer - [PH] Long ago, Odyn traded his eye to Mueh'zala to glimpse into the Shadowlands, and long since the Jailer has twisted that eye to his own ends, to maintain sight on his sadistic domain of torment.

[Cosmic Janitor]

In all those cases we went to places that we knew existed before the expansion even began. In the case of WoD it was a callback all the way to TBC with it being one of the most callback heavy raids we have.

We could go to Oribos or something, but it wouldnt really have the same impact that a place we know frrom before would have.

The Seat of the Pantheon was at best a nebulous reference somewhere, Nyalotha was a nebulous reference in an old god whisper from 3 years earlier. The proper version of WoD ended somewhere in the twisting nether. MoP ended in some random ass cave room Garrosh had dug for himself somewhere below Orgrimmar, the connection to actual orgrimmar being as tangential as somwhere to the north/east/south/west would have been. Even the Maelstrom of Cata was also only mostly a lore-reference, not some actual callback players could associate with much, other than the 3 minutes we spend there before diving into deepholm (not to mention the sudden appearance of 4 conventiently placed platforms).

[razorpax]

The Sylvanas journal has an interesting tidbit
She goes banshee to stop us from reaching the jailer while he ascends....oh also the rune carver being the primus is why you will never get a good twist in WoW...they literally can’t pull one off because they have too many hints about everything

[Pebrocks The Warlock]

Nyalotha was a nebulous reference in an old god whisper from 3 years earlier.

Wasn't Ny'alotha first referenced in the Puzzle Box of Yogg-Saron back in Cataclysm?

[Sondrelk]

The Sylvanas journal has an interesting tidbit
She goes banshee to stop us from reaching the jailer while he ascends....oh also the rune carver being the primus is why you will never get a good twist in WoW...they literally can’t pull one off because they have too many hints about everything

What hints? At best the hints we got was that the Primus was a good blacksmith and was not confirmed dead and that there was a blacksmith trapped in Torghast who could make good weapons.

That is a perfectly reasonable amount of hints. Too many would be confirmation that he was alive, or specific acknowledgment that the last time he was seen was when he was going to check on the Jailer.

[Cosmic Janitor]

Wasn't Ny'alotha first referenced in the Puzzle Box of Yogg-Saron back in Cataclysm?

Ah, you are right it was 4 nebulous whispers of a toy in cata .
https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Ny%27alotha

[Sondrelk]

The Seat of the Pantheon was at best a nebulous reference somewhere, Nyalotha was a nebulous reference in an old god whisper from 3 years earlier. The proper version of WoD ended somewhere in the twisting nether. MoP ended in some random ass cave room Garrosh had dug for himself somewhere below Orgrimmar, the connection to actual orgrimmar being as tangential as somwhere to the north/east/south/west would have been. Even the Maelstrom of Cata was also only mostly a lore-reference, not some actual callback players could associate with much, other than the 3 minutes we spend there before diving into deepholm (not to mention the sudden appearance of 4 conventiently placed platforms).

They were still built up though, all of them for longer than places like Oribos have even been places known to exist.

The point of making it somewhere we know is that it gives a payoff to wondering what said area would be like. This could be from not knowing what it looks like and seeing it for ourselves, or something like Orgrimmar where we already know the place and is now seeing it in a different light.

For final raids this is doubly important because it is supposed to feel like the big conclusion, not just another random place where the villain is.

[Nyel]

What hints? At best the hints we got was that the Primus was a good blacksmith and was not confirmed dead and that there was a blacksmith trapped in Torghast who could make good weapons.

That is a perfectly reasonable amount of hints. Too many would be confirmation that he was alive, or specific acknowledgment that the last time he was seen was when he was going to check on the Jailer.

I mean, as soon as you unlocked the Runecarver, it became pretty clear (if you followed the story): in Maldraxxus you learn that the Runecarver is missing; the Runecarver sealed the Seat of the Primus with five runes. In Torghast you find a mysterious giant that lost his memories. He unlocks Runecarving for you... I mean, it couldn't be more obvious.

A twist would have been that the Runecarver is not the Primus, but that would have been silly after all the foreshadowing.