Dragonflight Alpha/Beta General Discussion

[draugril]

Do you think that because Lord of the Rings is called Lord of the Rings and Sauron is responsible for literally everything that happens, gives the orders to everyone on the evil side, is controlling the entire plot, is the person who "hAs dOnE tHe MoSt DaMAgE tO tHe (current) NaTioNs of MiDdLe EaRtH" and is the most important in the fate of the world--that the focus of the Lord of the Rings is Sauron? No. Of course it fucking isn't.

Because Sylvanas is such a faceless entity as well! I don't recall her ever actually showing her face in the story, ever! Just like Sauron!

[frogboi10]

Im sorry to interrupt the thread with a random question but when do you guys thinks 10.0 will be announced?

I am craving for new stuff.

[Khaza-R]

Im sorry to interrupt the thread with a random question but when do you guys thinks 10.0 will be announced?

I am craving for new stuff.

Could be when BlizzCon would of been scheduled. Or E3 or Gamescon if Activision-Blizzard is even invited to participate.

[Super Dickmann]

Because Sylvanas is such a faceless entity as well! I don't recall her ever actually showing her face in the story, ever! Just like Sauron!

She has about as much development as Sauron. Less, arguably. At least Sauron realizes at the end of LotR that he's fucked up and the folly of his designs are revealed to him. BFA Sylvanas has no arc, no narrative journey, no consistent throughline. She just shows up to be a bitch and to allow other characters to be built up. BFA is about Sylvanas in the same way Titanic is about the ship. She's just the vehicle ferrying the actual stars along and her crash is what lets them get to their end points.

[Hitei]

She has about as much development as Sauron. Less, arguably. At least Sauron realizes at the end of LotR that he's fucked up and the folly of his designs are revealed to him. BFA Sylvanas has no arc, no narrative journey, no consistent throughline. She just shows up to be a bitch and to allow other characters to be built up. BFA is about Sylvanas in the same way Titanic is about the ship. She's just the vehicle ferrying the actual stars along and her crash is what lets them get to their end points.

This. Sylvanas in BfA is a plot device giving out commands, not a character.

Im sorry to interrupt the thread with a random question but when do you guys thinks 10.0 will be announced?

I am craving for new stuff.

Late Jan or February via some announced big info dump would be my guess.

[UndedoKoleda]

No. What YOU are arguing is that WC3 and TFT aren't about Arthas, or Jaina, or Thrall, or Tyrande and Malfurion, and instead the """""focus""""" of those games is Kil'jaeden and Archimonde. Because, and here I will outright fucking quote you:


What I am arguing is that Kil'jaeden and Archimonde are not the focus of WC3, and you can remove them entirely with relatively little change and have the exact same game. Because despite being the ones who order everything and cause everything (read: Sylvanas), they are largely unimportant and absent in 95% of that entire game (read: Sylvanas) and the focus is the individual characters who actually have storylines, not the people who initially triggered the third war.



Only obviously Arthas' story isn't actually about Kil'jaeden, who was the ordering everything. Or Ner'zhul, who was the one giving all the orders directly to Arthas and KT. It was about fucking Arthas and his growth and journey as a character.

Just like Saurfang's story isn't about Sylvanas, who is a distant antagonist. It is about Saurfang's growth and Journey. And the Proudmoore storyline isn't about Sylvanas starting a war months before on a different continent or being the one who orders Derek be raised, it is about Jaina's past conflicts and the relationship with her people. And the Zandalari questline isn't about Sylvanas (lmao @ Bwonsamdi not liking Sylvanas), it's about the Zandalari.

Do you think that because Lord of the Rings is called Lord of the Rings and Sauron is responsible for literally everything that happens, gives the orders to everyone on the evil side, is controlling the entire plot, is the person who "hAs dOnE tHe MoSt DaMAgE tO tHe (current) NaTioNs of MiDdLe EaRtH" and is the most important in the fate of the world--that the focus of the Lord of the Rings is Sauron? No. Of course it fucking isn't. It's about Frodo Baggins, and he and his allies are the focus, because they are the ones the story actually follows and scenes are about, and who go on a journey.

So I guess you have answered my previous question. That you do not understand what focus is.

Wow... That reaching... I haven't seen anything like it for quite a while.

Archimonde and Kil'Jaden in WC3 and TFT are in absolutely no way comparable to Sylvanas in BFA. They were nowhere even close to being build up as much as Sylvanas, which is mentioned in the entire War Campaign, through the entire expansion. You think that she has to be the literal quest giver in every instance for her to be considered as a main character? Wrong.

She got he own Warbringer short(you know, the very ones that present the main characters in the given expansion). She is the main focus(alongside Anduin) in the Battle for Azeroth cinematic trailer. She is regularly seen in game. Sylvanas and her motivations is probably the most discussed topic along the entire BFA expansion. People got so involved with her and that story that they still hate her to this day. There were even outcries about her being the focus of two consecutive expansions, when the Shadowlands cinematic was released.

You have to be deluded to think she compares in any single way to Kil'jaden and Archimonde.

The story of BFA wasn't marketed as "Journey of Jaina to her home" or "Saurfang's growth and journey" it was marketed as an all out war between the factions, the war that Sylvanas singlehandedly started. Not from another world, not from another planet, not from Orgrimmar, she was there. People hated her so much, that all the forums were flooded with everything about Sylvanas. That lasted through the entire expansion, everyone was theorizing why is she doing what shes doing. Is she mind controlled? Is she serving someone? Is she batshit insane?

"It's not about Sylvanas burning Teldrassil, it's about a tree succumbing to fire, representing the ruthless nature of the world we live in".
Do you understand how ridiculous you sound?

The other main characters have their own stories(even if mostly contained to a zone or two, nobody has as grand story as her in BFA, even Jaina), it's pretty obvious that she can't be literally everywhere all the time, involved in all the quest lines, always twirling her mustache... Except for the Saurfang one. You cite him as a focus of the story then you deny that the main moving plot of his arc is one too... Without Sylvanas, Saurfang has no story in BFA. Nada. Null. Zero. The entire loyalists vs traitors ark is impossible without Sylvanas.

If it wasn't for Sylvanas there would be no BFA, there would be no Shadowlands(because they are very, very heavily connected). I can't explain it any simpler than this.

P.S. I don't even get what are you trying to say with the whole Frodo Bagins spreach. There is no Frodo Bagins in BFA, there was never a Frodo Bagins in any wow expansion, period.

P.P.S. Do you by any chance also believe that the Jailer is not the focus of the Shadowlands expansion?

- - - Updated - - -

She has about as much development as Sauron. Less, arguably. At least Sauron realizes at the end of LotR that he's fucked up and the folly of his designs are revealed to him. BFA Sylvanas has no arc, no narrative journey, no consistent throughline. She just shows up to be a bitch and to allow other characters to be built up. BFA is about Sylvanas in the same way Titanic is about the ship. She's just the vehicle ferrying the actual stars along and her crash is what lets them get to their end points.

Yeah, Titanic would have been the same movie without the ship. I see your point.

[Raetary]

Im sorry to interrupt the thread with a random question but when do you guys thinks 10.0 will be announced?

I am craving for new stuff.

They'll probably stick to what they originally intended, so around Feb/March.

[Divada]

They'll probably stick to what they originally intended, so around Feb/March.

Will that schedule be affected by the strike that appears to be going ahead?

[ExiHext]

Could be when BlizzCon would of been scheduled. Or E3 or Gamescon if Activision-Blizzard is even invited to participate.

I'm guessing they won't attend any conventions in the near future. I rather see an online event/stream around february where they are going to announce the next expac.

[Super Dickmann]

Yeah, Titanic would have been the same movie without the ship. I see your point.

In the same way that if Leo DiCaprio and Kate Winslet were on a plane instead of a ship you'd only need to make cosmetic changes to the story. The ship has no character of its own, it's just an instrument, scene dressing for the actual characters. Leo DiCaprio refuses to just hold onto the plank like a moron dies tragically and that is the actual story being told. The beat could not take place without the plank, but the story isn't about it.

The fact that in the same post you deny that your argument would make KJ the main character of TFT yet claim that the Jailer is the focus of SL just drives the point home how incoherent that argument really is. To whit, neither the Jailer or KJ are the foci of their respective plots. Arthas is the main character of the last campaign of TFT and patch 9.1 to 9.2 have Sylvanas as the main character. They are the ones who change and develop and go through a narrative arc. The Jailer is a narrative obstacle.

[Sondrelk]

Im sorry to interrupt the thread with a random question but when do you guys thinks 10.0 will be announced?

I am craving for new stuff.

Either fairly early in 2022, or a fair bit after 9.2 is released.

Depends very much on what 10.0 is, and when it is likely to release.
If 10.0 is just another expansion like usual released late 2022 then we are likely to see some of it early. Though if it's something more ambitious that might end up being launched later thab usual I would expect it could be revealed later to ensure the end of expansion drought is less awful.

Of course, with there not being a Blizzcon I could absolutely see the 10.0 reveal being a bit more non-traditional.
Instead of a giant chunk of reveals we might see it more spaced out. A trailer early in 2022, features trailer a few weeks after, individual panels to spice up the empty weeks that WoW will have next year.

[draugril]

She has about as much development as Sauron. Less, arguably. At least Sauron realizes at the end of LotR that he's fucked up and the folly of his designs are revealed to him. BFA Sylvanas has no arc, no narrative journey, no consistent throughline. She just shows up to be a bitch and to allow other characters to be built up. BFA is about Sylvanas in the same way Titanic is about the ship. She's just the vehicle ferrying the actual stars along and her crash is what lets them get to their end points.

Facetiousness aside, she has significant facetime and no development. Whereas Sauron is arguably the opposite, especially if you get into the expanded material (just as you need to do with WoW if you want to get anything out of the story, as its written more like an encyclopedic plot summary than an actual engaging narrative).

[UndedoKoleda]

In the same way that if Leo DiCaprio and Kate Winslet were on a plane instead of a ship you'd only need to make cosmetic changes to the story. The ship has no character of its own, it's just an instrument, scene dressing for the actual characters. Leo DiCaprio refuses to just hold onto the plank like a moron dies tragically and that is the actual story being told. The beat could not take place without the plank, but the story isn't about it.

The fact that in the same post you deny that your argument would make KJ the main character of TFT yet claim that the Jailer is the focus of SL just drives the point home how incoherent that argument really is. To whit, neither the Jailer or KJ are the foci of their respective plots. Arthas is the main character of the last campaign of TFT and patch 9.1 to 9.2 have Sylvanas as the main character. They are the ones who change and develop and go through a narrative arc. The Jailer is a narrative obstacle.

Ok, next question. Who are the Leo DiCaprio and Kate Winslet of BFA?

And how does the 9.1 and 9.2 have Sylvanas as main character, apart from her being the final raid boss in the first one? You insist that Sylvanas is not the main character in BFA, then you put her as a main character in two patches(which are not an entire expansion, mind you), when she's done even less and had far less character development than before? Something doesn't add up.

[Makabreska]

And how does the 9.1 and 9.2 have Sylvanas as main character, apart from her being the final raid boss in the first one? You insist that Sylvanas is not the main character in BFA, then you put her as a main character in two patches(which are not an entire expansion, mind you), when she's done even less and had far less character development than before? Something doesn't add up.

She had less character development? What? Didn't you see how she started to hesitate, question her choices and finally change heart in 9.1, something that never happened in entire BfA? Not to mention w/e 9.2 throws at us.

[Super Dickmann]

Ok, next question. Who are the Leo DiCaprio and Kate Winslet of BFA?

And how does the 9.1 and 9.2 have Sylvanas as main character, apart from her being the final raid boss in the first one? You insist that Sylvanas is not the main character in BFA, then you put her as a main character in two patches(which are not an entire expansion, mind you), when she's done even less and had far less character development than before? Something doesn't add up.

Good question, I'd go with Sadfang and Anduin. You could make a case for Jaina, but it's really Anduin's heart that will go on.

Regarding Sylvanas and screentime. If you go back to BFA she doesn't actually feature all that much. The sum of her post-launch content up until Saurfang comes to commit suicide at her doorstep is ten odd minutes and a handful of quests. A character like Talanji dwarfs her in screentime and Saurfang, who also doesn't do much in game, has an entire cinematic series devoted to him. But really, the screen time thing is secondary. The main thing is who develops in that story, who is being challenged and changes as a result and who's perspective is key to it. With BFA Saurfang and Jaina, notwithstanding their higher screentime than Sylvanas, are the ones who actually grow and change as a result of what goes on in the plot. Jaina reconciles with her homeland and family and reaffirms the beliefs she's wavered in and Saurfang after struggling with guilt and indecision and what kind of legacy he's left behind ends up giving his life for the next generation of the Horde, represented by Memeboi. Sylvanas may be the one who orders Kul Tiras attacked in a throw-away comment or who's the one to torch the tree, but her perspective and connection to these events isn't focused on. Old Soldier isn't about Sylvanas burning the tree, it's about Saurfang's perspective on Sylvanas burning the tree.

Compare and contrast a similar fight with Sylvanas in SL, she appears less in 9.1 and we beat her where Saurfang didn't, but the narrative is firmly on her and not on those around her. She is the one who's perspective is challenged as she realizes that the Jailer has no intention of solving the deterministic problem she sees in the afterlife and that their relationship has been unequal, something we already knew and the way she changes quite literally when he returns her fragment to her is what the story caps off on, with all attention on where she goes from there. Ditto, 9.2's focus and the cinematic they just released follows up on her development after this moment and what it feels for her. There was never such a thing in BFA, never a point where Sylvanas' perspective was ever interrogated or where we focused on how she treats the situation, but we did get plenty about Jaina, Saurfang and Talanji.

To note, I'm discussing entirely what these story beats were going for, not how they came across or their quality, which is a story we've all said our piece on and will continue to do. But the developers' intent with all of these is pretty clear as are their decision on which characters get to have an internal life of any kind. In BFA's story that culminates with a fight against Sylvanas, it's Saurfang, in SL's, it's Sylvanas. The BFA Saurfang cinematics centered the conflict around his emotional processing and perspective on his life, much like in SL, the scenes where Sylvanas and Anduin meet are focused on her character and how she relates to the situation and is challenged by Anduin. Hell, they're even mirrored, with Saurfang meeting Anduin as a captive whereas Sylvanas meets him as a captor.

[Aedruid]

The colour scheme reminds me of Alexstrasza (especially her heroes of the storm skin) as well as ears = her horns, dragons next?

yuck, went from sexy to overweight and hideous

[Lady Atia]

Good question, I'd go with Sadfang and Anduin. You could make a case for Jaina, but it's really Anduin's heart that will go on.

Regarding Sylvanas and screentime. If you go back to BFA she doesn't actually feature all that much. The sum of her post-launch content up until Saurfang comes to commit suicide at her doorstep is ten odd minutes and a handful of quests. A character like Talanji dwarfs her in screentime and Saurfang, who also doesn't do much in game, has an entire cinematic series devoted to him. But really, the screen time thing is secondary. The main thing is who develops in that story, who is being challenged and changes as a result and who's perspective is key to it. With BFA Saurfang and Jaina, notwithstanding their higher screentime than Sylvanas, are the ones who actually grow and change as a result of what goes on in the plot. Jaina reconciles with her homeland and family and reaffirms the beliefs she's wavered in and Saurfang after struggling with guilt and indecision and what kind of legacy he's left behind ends up giving his life for the next generation of the Horde, represented by Memeboi. Sylvanas may be the one who orders Kul Tiras attacked in a throw-away comment or who's the one to torch the tree, but her perspective and connection to these events isn't focused on. Old Soldier isn't about Sylvanas burning the tree, it's about Saurfang's perspective on Sylvanas burning the tree.

Compare and contrast a similar fight with Sylvanas in SL, she appears less in 9.1 and we beat her where Saurfang didn't, but the narrative is firmly on her and not on those around her. She is the one who's perspective is challenged as she realizes that the Jailer has no intention of solving the deterministic problem she sees in the afterlife and that their relationship has been unequal, something we already knew and the way she changes quite literally when he returns her fragment to her is what the story caps off on, with all attention on where she goes from there. Ditto, 9.2's focus and the cinematic they just released follows up on her development after this moment and what it feels for her. There was never such a thing in BFA, never a point where Sylvanas' perspective was ever interrogated or where we focused on how she treats the situation, but we did get plenty about Jaina, Saurfang and Talanji.

To note, I'm discussing entirely what these story beats were going for, not how they came across or their quality, which is a story we've all said our piece on and will continue to do. But the developers' intent with all of these is pretty clear as are their decision on which characters get to have an internal life of any kind. In BFA's story that culminates with a fight against Sylvanas, it's Saurfang, in SL's, it's Sylvanas. The BFA Saurfang cinematics centered the conflict around his emotional processing and perspective on his life, much like in SL, the scenes where Sylvanas and Anduin meet are focused on her character and how she relates to the situation and is challenged by Anduin. Hell, they're even mirrored, with Saurfang meeting Anduin as a captive whereas Sylvanas meets him as a captor.

We actually never "beat" her during her SoD encounter. She still had 45% HP after her fight - without the Jailer she could have fight us for another 10 minutes straight - or actually we would have wiped because we were out of platforms to fight on.

[Makabreska]

We actually never "beat" her during her SoD encounter. She still had 45% HP after her fight - without the Jailer she could have fight us for another 10 minutes straight - or actually we would have wiped because we were out of platforms to fight on.

Eh, these are game play reasons that don't apply to lore. But yes, in the "kill" cinematic she looked fresh and unharmed, just like Nathanos @ 10% HP. We didn't beat here, she was just stalling us.

[Super Dickmann]

We actually never "beat" her during her SoD encounter. She still had 45% HP after her fight - without the Jailer she could have fight us for another 10 minutes straight - or actually we would have wiped because we were out of platforms to fight on.

Point, should've specified I meant beat the encounter. I've bitched about that particular choice of us not actually defeating her both as regards her fight and Jaina's back in BFA. We do better than Sadfang in any case and the emotional crux is squarely on her.

[Aedruid]

Eh, these are game play reasons that don't apply to lore. But yes, in the "kill" cinematic she looked fresh and unharmed, just like Nathanos @ 10% HP. We didn't beat here, she was just stalling us.

I will never play a Blizzard game again if my waifu Sylvanus dies