Dragonflight Alpha/Beta General Discussion

[Sondrelk]

The main worthwhile takeaway from the e-celeb video is the bit about the scar matching where it was thrown into her in 9.1. It's noticable on a rewatch and solves the Frostmourne scar bs without retconning the means of her death and raising for what's either the third or fourth time. Past that, not so much.



I'd say why I believe the cinematic fails at this, but I already did, so I'll just quote the Dickmann from the lore sub-forum topic on this:



The POV puts us in Potato Sylvanas's shoes rather than the Sylvanas we've had for seventeen odd years and go through her struggle to reconcile with what she'd go on to do. This combined with the way that dialogue alludes to Potato Sylvanas accepting culpability while our Sylvanas doesn't get to engage with Uther or what she makes of being judged by her much less experienced, much less traumatized self, it primes us to consider Potato Sylvanas the real deal. Along with her increased focus compared to our current Sylvanas and the lack of actually seeing the two Sylvanases/Sylvani/whatever merge with the focus on the blue eyes that we associated with Potato Sylvanas creates the strong visual and emotional approach towards Potato Sylvanas now being the dominant element of the character. Is it possible that the character won't be written this way going forward? Possibly, but given she laments how bad it was to be judge and executioner towards Arthas, the guy at the root of all her life's problems, I kind of doubt it. But it is the impression the narrative creates because the words said and what is depicted are dissonant.

Framing this cinematic from our Sylvanas' point of view, or with the positions reversed, having our Sylvanas having to reconcile being judged by her younger self and then talking to Uther, as well as a scene where they merge, like the Uthers, would go a long way to solving this issue. But what would go an even longer way is to skip this whole bullshit in the first place and if we are going to have an Uther/Sylvanas soulscape scene just have her be struggling with her actions organically and come to the conclusion that she fucked up herself. This whole 'there are two wolves inside you' bs was terrible with Varian, inoffensive with Uther and now perfunctory with Sylvanas and at best is an extremely obtuse, arcane way of having the character change her worldview, something she's already done before without the need for such contrived plot devices.

Could you imagine if the cinematic didnt focus on Blue Eyes Sylvanas being tortured, and instead on the Sylvanas we know being tortured by her actions? Not Bluevanas having to sit and watch her Redvanas self be evil, but just Sylvanas being tortured by reliving the reactions to those she killed constantly asking her why she did it?

Just imagine, Sylvanas trying to stop herself from ordering the burning of Teldrassil even as he body moves and talks to the opposite while the captured Night Elves scream in the background. Seeing the desperation of the Forsaken as they try to escape her and be with their families as she has them killed. The seeming confusion in the eyes of Zelling as he is unceremoniously killed for practicing what he was told was the main tenet of Forsaken society.

The idea that she is tortured by the implications of her actions would always be slightly dumb, but at least it could have been more harrowing instead of confusing. After all, Bluevanas might be a true Sylvanas, but from our perspective she might as well be a new character. The scene has about as much weight to it if we transplant any character with a conscience into that scene. You could have had the elf lady that Sylvanas failed to save in the Afterlives cinematic and the scene would have functioned no differently.

[huth]

It was always weird to me when people complained about Panderan being too childish or goofy when TBC spawned endless memes over adding spaceships and other sci-fi elements to the setting.

Lets not forget this gem from 2007.

https://lorelol.ytmnd.com/

Let's not forget that WC3 retconned a lot of stuff from the previous two as well. Or the whole Eredar/Draenei debacle.

Pretending this is somehow a recent issue is rather ridiculous.

[Revamp Man]

So we have the Sylvanas timeline
Regular life
Arthas fight
Soul A removed and frozen in time
Soul B becomes banshee
Warcraft 3-WotLK
Soul B gets impaled on big daddy AYogg’s blood
Takes offer from valkyr and is now being partially manipulated by jailer
Soul B becomes war chief
Soul B makes deal with helya to seal the signe so she can have more valkyr and helya cripples Odyn
She fails
Soul B starts ear by burning tree because she needed more souls even though in a book it was said she did it because the alliance would never surrender so her original plan of having them give up eventually wouldn’t work (they retconned this after just two years)
B then teams up with ashvane to raise proudmoore to kill his family
B abandoned that when the cow betrayed her
B then commits to helping the naga release and kill the old god
B then kills Saurfang and runs off
B then attacks the LK and breaks the helm so she can jump into the maw and bring the jailer’s forces out
B kidnaps leaders
B turns Anduin
B gathers sigils under the orders of the jailer like everything else she’s done since breaking the crown
B gets strangled by her GF and told her cuck is dead
B defeats us and decides that after her sugar daddy gets his power back she’ll no longer do everything that he says and fires essentially a toothpick at new Thanos
Thanos then Fists B with A
A and B are now stuck in their head arguing over how B didn’t really serve and genocide wasn’t that bad cuz freedum
Uther brings out A and tells her to stop being such a pussy and accept that she did do that because B was still a part of her soul and A is like “I mean I guess I am a bit of a bitch for doing that”
And after everything our new Sylvanas is going to search the shadowlands for Nathanos even though he wasn’t judged and would have gone straight to the maw so either the jailer used him or he just let him wander for some strange reason


That’s your 6 years of build up
That’s your character that was the center of multiple books and comics
Well kinda since they rewrote most of her motivations

- - - Updated - - -

And if you want proof current writers don’t know the old lore
Sylvanas didn’t recognize Uther
They had fought together in past wars
She knew him then
But now he’s a stranger

[bagina]

@Hitei @ohwell @ExiHext

I'm sorry but claiming that shattering one's soul has no effect on their person, that they would've done the same things with their soul intact is a big fat lie. Shadowlands has been hammering this point home ever since the Uther questline started. The very reason Uther was influenced by Devos and joined the Forsworn was becasue he couldn't heal from his pain, his soul was "darkened, his memories shattered and twisted". The whole point of this circus is that the soul shattering matters. That it makes one "weak" and prone to Jailer's influence. It's all said by the cinematics and quests. That's a fact, you can't just spin it any other way.

It seems like we're not understanding each other.
It seems like I'm saying: "Sylvanas wouldn't have acted that way if she wasn't lobotomised."
While you're saying: "You're wrong, because she would've always acted that way if she was lobotomised." Okay? But I'm specifically talking about a scenario where she's not lobotomised. It's like we're getting past each other.

The shard was the part of Sylvanas that was still alive. It's a reflection of that alive Sylvanas that never became an undead. Sylvanas absolutely wouldn't have acted the same if her soul was intact, let alone if she was alive. Every event beginning from W3 would've played out differently if she was alive. The entire history of Forsaken has led us to believe that. Undead and the living are not the same. You can't just write off becoming undead as some traumatic event that one just "reacts to" but happens outside themselves. It's a transformation that happens against your will, that permanently alters you preception, emotions, and a whole range of other things, it's akin to sticking a needle into your brain, a lobotomy of sorts. Add to that the whole soul shattering and you get a soul twisted, fractured and incomplete, in constant pain unable to heal. How can you not agree that it affects the decisionmaking? That's not what we've been shown and told over the years.

I know we've been using "past Sylvanas" for the sake of the discussion but at the end of the day it isn't a Sylvanas that used a time machine and witnessed her future self, and she isn't a "snapshot" of old Sylvanas. She's not looking at a whole Sylvanas from the future. She is a fragment of an incomplete soul. An incomplete soul can't work properly, why would anything that's been "shattered"? Language used matters. You can't say shattered for it to mean okay and unchanged.

Also I'm agreeing with @Super Dickmann 's post.

[Super Dickmann]

The idea that she is tortured by the implications of her actions would always be slightly dumb, but at least it could have been more harrowing instead of confusing. After all, Bluevanas might be a true Sylvanas, but from our perspective she might as well be a new character. The scene has about as much weight to it if we transplant any character with a conscience into that scene. You could have had the elf lady that Sylvanas failed to save in the Afterlives cinematic and the scene would have functioned no differently.

This I think is a major problem with the way they decided to do this, notwithstanding what's already been said about whether the soul split was ever a good idea. The cinematic, for what it is, i.e having Uther help Ranger-General Sylvanas accept what she turned into later is fine. No one's really out of character or anything, the visual language is fine, her bizarre face notwithstanding. But it's dramatically weaker than it could be because, like you say, you could substitute Potato Sylvanas with any other moral person into that spot, with the exception of the very start where Redvanas and Bluevanas get to argue a little bit. It puts us in the shoes of the fragment instead of one the person reconciling with parts of their past that they were already aware of, as it was with Uther.

What made Uther's trip down memory lane in 9.1 work is because we didn't swap perspectives. We followed the same Uther who'd been with us all expansion and more so than that, an Uther who'd already changed his perspective regarding the Forsworn. When we traipse through his memories, we don't do it from the point of view of the bit of Uther we collected from the vault, but instead the character we'd been following up to now got to consider his actions. We weren't having WC3 Uther react to his future self joining the Blue Man Group, we had Current Uther look through his actions, both what he did do and what he wanted to do. The bit with Stratholme where not only does he cleanse the plague as part of his fantasy but also, in some surprising subtle storytelling, kills the Knights of the Silver Hand and soldiers who followed Arthas, essentially fantasizing about killing his comrades does a lot for his character. Having it happen as a transition from one of his proudest moments, training Arthas and becoming a paladin, to the moment where he basically loses his pupil at Stratholme was also an inspired choice in showing the dreamlike associations between things that are emotionally charged for the character. The end plot point of Uther feeling bad about parting with Arthas on the worst terms is still as dubious as it was in Wrath when you bring his ghost a badge, but it justifies itself better because we're treated to his thought process. No longer is it just him feeling bad about how he was harsh to someone who ruined his entire life, it's how that moment taints everything else by association.

It's not just that he hates what Arthas became, that's justified, it's that he regrets not hating Arthas earlier, not killing him as a student. That it colours even pleasant memories like his own anointment as one of the first paladins. It's not that he only feels bad about not doing more at Stratholme and resents the decision made and wishes he were there to stop it, he wants to punish the soldiers who went along with it and hurt them. And all that culminates with him throwing Arthas into hell. Coming to terms with all that and where he failed his values has him grow as a character, but it's still him as a character. Bluther is the one who takes cues and reconciles, not the Uther fragment we never met. Said fragment isn't even a character, it doesn't share a scene with Bluther, it's only a vessel through which he's able to square his prior decisions.

A Sylvanas equivalent to this could both have been a solid questline, but if it were to be a cutscene it'd be a far more natural transition. But that'd require starring our Sylvanas, not the Potato version, because our Sylvanas is the one who has to consider her thought process. What's basically a third party deciding that she'll accept being guilty for torching a city full of people and that torching a city of people is bad is a far more empty experience. And it stands to reason that regardless how much the writers tell us it's the same person, if we only ever see that fragment's view whereas we get nothing on the character we've been following for 17 years, the assumption is that a replacement has taken place at worst and at best that Potato Sylvanas' perspective is dominant.

[Cherry123]

why are you trying to find an explanation for Danuser's burp ? it's just badly written

[Zers Editor]

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=B-YCeALtZkA

Wish that conversation was in 9.1 instead, but the dialogue is decent enough to excuse that. I like that he's not apologising for taking the LK mantle and still stands on why he had to do it, while still feeling sorry for making the ones that love him/care about him feel hurt.

[Verdugo]

I'll post more when I'm inspired.

Please dont.

[Rhelyo]

I am sorry i know most of the people here on the forums really love this game with the exception of some who only come here to flame or wanting to see it die but for me i do not like how the expansion turned out. This was like the 8th expansion not counting the original game which was Classic and if you take a look or build a graph you can see that pretty much everything (except Draenor or Mists) was tied to Zovaal,or atleast they made us think.
"The nathrezim—servants of Sire Denathrius masquerading as members of the Burning Legion[34]—used the helm to imprison the spirit of Ner'zhul and transform him into the first Lich King"-quote from wowpedia.Then you have Malganis which drove Arthas mad into becoming the Lich King who works for Zovaal aswell.
Plenty of important figures in this game like Sylvanas,Bolvar,Arthas,burning legion,nathrezims,Frostmourne,the helm of domination which created the first Lich King from the spirit of Ner'zhul and many other things were tied somehow to Zovaal.
You build him as the ultimate antagonist which shaped the story of previous expansions we had in the past and he is defeated in a 2 patches expansion? We barely saw him in Shadowlands and we had no interaction with him except in some cutscenes.
I remember in Wrath we saw Arthas/Lich King in Howling Fjord during questing or in Dragonblight in a cave where Arthas became the lich king.We also met him in a dungeon Halls of Origination where before the end he started chasing us making us retreat.That is how you build a baddie in a expansion imo,getting to know and fear him.

As for 10.0 prediction we will get the Void expansion probably.There are hints of void elementals in Bastion

[Aeluron Lightsong]

Someone doesn't remember how bitchy the playerbase was with Arthas's appearences which then lead to Deathwing hardly being anywhere minus those times the zone got a visit from Deathwing(Someone HAS to remember that lol). People can claim Zovaal is boring but you don't need a villain to be always in your face. Forgot to add, what hurts him the most is I think if we spent some part of the expansion(Weather it was 9.1 9.2 to go back and see how it lead to where he is now. Would of been nice. That said I kinda feel like they(And I have no evidence for this just a educated theory) wanted to get moving to sorta alleviate concerns about SL in terms of gameplay. Thus Zovaal's or rather SL Story had to take a beating because of this.


I can be totally off base but its a theory,

[Rhelyo]

Someone doesn't remember how bitchy the playerbase was with Arthas's appearences which then lead to Deathwing hardly being anywhere minus those times the zone got a visit from Deathwing(Someone HAS to remember that lol). People can claim Zovaal is boring but you don't need a villain to be always in your face. Forgot to add, what hurts him the most is I think if we spent some part of the expansion(Weather it was 9.1 9.2 to go back and see how it lead to where he is now. Would of been nice. That said I kinda feel like they(And I have no evidence for this just a educated theory) wanted to get moving to sorta alleviate concerns about SL in terms of gameplay. Thus Zovaal's or rather SL Story had to take a beating because of this.


I can be totally off base but its a theory,

Well as an achievement collector i remember i was actually hunting for Deathwing attacking different zones for quite awhile never had the "luck" to find him.Then they eventually made it so u can gain that achievement from dieing on the Spine of Deathwing encounter.
Oh and im not saying Zovaal is boring.We just dont know anything about him.At the end of Sylvanas encounter he looks pretty badass on par with Lich King and its a shame he dies in 2 patches.

[Lady Atia]

Well as an achievement collector i remember i was actually hunting for Deathwing attacking different zones for quite awhile never had the "luck" to find him.Then they eventually made it so u can gain that achievement from dieing on the Spine of Deathwing encounter.

Oh yeah I remember. The original intend was to make said achievement a FoS once the final patch would be out, but they instead gave it away to everyone who tried the new LFR. Good times.

[Ersula]

And if you want proof current writers don’t know the old lore
Sylvanas didn’t recognize Uther
They had fought together in past wars
She knew him then
But now he’s a stranger

Yeah, this could have worked if there weren't a billion events in the lore that make no sense.

Her legitimate argument to Anduin makes no sense now. All those conflicted looks she gave make no sense. Why did she actually want Helya's lantern? Was it a plan of the Jailer's or so she'd have some agency over the Valkyr? The Edge of Night suicide attempt makes no sense now. The Nathrezim trying to recruit her to fight Arthas makes no sense now. Why did Elune save Sylvanas' life? And if you say 'to fulfil her purpose' you have to admit Elune wanted those Night Elves dead.

It's hard to take guilt or redemption seriously when it's sanctioned by gods. Did any aspect of the game's worldbuilding get past Shadowlands unscathed?

- - - Updated - - -

Nowhere does it say the split made them different.

That being said, it's not "past" in her case but rather simply one that was frozen in time. Similar, but still not the same. It was essentially once again a failsafe made by the Jailer

Don't you see how that's a contradiction? You can't have it both ways. Either they're different people or it's a "failsafe made by the jailer" why should she feel any responsibility? It wasn't something she did; it was the direct result of something done TO her. The writers have basically taken the concept of survivors guilt & said "yeah you should feel guilty for your trauma" ...... not a great look from a company being investigated for victimizing women.

[bagina]

Don't you see how that's a contradiction? You can't have it both ways. Either they're different people or it's a "failsafe made by the jailer" why should she feel any responsibility? It wasn't something she did; it was the direct result of something done TO her. The writers have basically taken the concept of survivors guilt & said "yeah you should feel guilty for your trauma" ...... not a great look from a company being investigated for victimizing women.

They want to have cake and eat it too!

[Therougetitan]

Sylvanas never met Uther. They fought in the same wars doesn't mean they even crossed paths. Just because you fight in the same war doesn't meant you know everyone else in that war. Sylvanas stayed in Quel'thalas for the second war only Alleria and her forces left. Not to mention there is no record of Uther actually going to Quel'thalas himself it was Turaylon who did to help.

[Ersula]

Sylvanas never met Uther. They fought in the same wars doesn't mean they even crossed paths. Just because you fight in the same war doesn't meant you know everyone else in that war. Sylvanas stayed in Quel'thalas for the second war only Alleria and her forces left. Not to mention there is no record of Uther actually going to Quel'thalas himself it was Turaylon who did to help.

Sylvanas was so thorough a ranger-general that she knew the names of every human who lived in the Forests of Tirisfal: That's now she knew Nathanos. The idea she never met Uther in the time between the wars is actually preposterous.

[Revamp Man]

Yeah, this could have worked if there weren't a billion events in the lore that make no sense.

Her legitimate argument to Anduin makes no sense now. All those conflicted looks she gave make no sense. Why did she actually want Helya's lantern? Was it a plan of the Jailer's or so she'd have some agency over the Valkyr? The Edge of Night suicide attempt makes no sense now. The Nathrezim trying to recruit her to fight Arthas makes no sense now. Why did Elune save Sylvanas' life? And if you say 'to fulfil her purpose' you have to admit Elune wanted those Night Elves dead.

It's hard to take guilt or redemption seriously when it's sanctioned by gods. Did any aspect of the game's worldbuilding get past Shadowlands unscathed?

- - - Updated - - -

Don't you see how that's a contradiction? You can't have it both ways. Either they're different people or it's a "failsafe made by the jailer" why should she feel any responsibility? It wasn't something she did; it was the direct result of something done TO her. The writers have basically taken the concept of survivors guilt & said "yeah you should feel guilty for your trauma" ...... not a great look from a company being investigated for victimizing women.

The best part is that the one that cared about the self insert was the one that was sealed away but that doesn’t explain why the evil one went through all the trouble for the self insert

[Super Dickmann]

Sylvanas was so thorough a ranger-general that she knew the names of every human who lived in the Forests of Tirisfal: That's now she knew Nathanos. The idea she never met Uther in the time between the wars is actually preposterous.

Sylvanas knew Nathanos because he was the only human who managed to make it through ranger training not because she intimately tracked every human in a fifty mile radius. The idea that characters who've never met on-screen up to this point or have said to have met also didn't meet off-screen is the least implausible part of this whole sequence. Especially given the wealth of actually ridiculous character connections to be had there like Jaina calmly commenting about Anduin while staring down the woman who raised her brother into undeath to set them up the bomb or Thrall talking passionately about saving Anduin, someone with whom he only ever shared a line of dialogue in a side book released before SL.

[Khaza-R]

Sylvanas never met Uther. They fought in the same wars doesn't mean they even crossed paths. Just because you fight in the same war doesn't meant you know everyone else in that war. Sylvanas stayed in Quel'thalas for the second war only Alleria and her forces left. Not to mention there is no record of Uther actually going to Quel'thalas himself it was Turaylon who did to help.

Yeah but she's not some nobody in Quel'thalas, she was the head of their military. And Uther is probably the 3rd most powerful human in Lordaeron at the time.

Them not knowing each other is not impossible but extremely unlikely.

[Therougetitan]

Sylvanas was so thorough a ranger-general that she knew the names of every human who lived in the Forests of Tirisfal: That's now she knew Nathanos. The idea she never met Uther in the time between the wars is actually preposterous.

Hearing a humans name doesn't mean they know what they look like she can't google and see a photo of him. The high elves also withdrew from the Alliance after the second war they were not happy about their forests burning so there is no reason for her to go meeting humans that don't interest her.