Why is everyone in such a freaking hurry?

[Eurhetemec]

No. I was kicked in my very first HC dungeon in wotlk. We were in Azjol-Nerub at the spider boss: I did low DPS and wiped. The whole group made fun of my talents and kicked me. This extremely toxic behavior existed since FOREVER. Now you don't only get kicked for low DPS but also for pulling by mistake, etc. But the behaviour is still the exact same.

No.

That's not the same behaviour. You're literally lying.

The behaviour described wasn't "kicking people for low DPS" or "kicking people for pulling by mistake". It wasn't to do with kicking at all.

The behaviour being described is not just rushing through dungeons, either, it's specifically trying to play dungeons like they're M+, trying to use elaborate or risky skips in N/H dungeons and so on. That has never been normal in any expansion pre-BfA.

If tanks don't go fast enough people are willing to kick and wait 3 hours for another tank instead of extending the run by a few minutes. The community has created this mindset and it is now perpetuated by itself. Snake eating its tail

I've literally never seen nor heard of this happening, and I've done countless thousands of dungeons over the last few years. As a tank, I'm not particularly fast - but I've never been kicked or threatened with a kick for being slow (or indeed for any reason, except once in the very early days where I was kicked to make room for someone's guildy, after I didn't drop group immediately when the demanded me to).

[Volardelis]

I’m so sick of it. The toxic fucking m+ gogoggo mindset has ruined all forms of group content in this game. Now I can’t even enjoy a freaking NORMAL dungeon without the tank using m+ routes and going AS UBERWTTTDBBBQQQQ FAST AS POSSIBILE.

God don’t people just fuckijg do shit to enjoy it? Don’t people enjoy the environments in games anymore? Must everything be a means to an end, which must come as fast as possible because I NEED MY REWARD RN?

I haven’t ran a single normal dungeon where the tank wasn’t on fucking coke

The GOGOGOGO mentality has existed LONG before M+ was a thing.

WoWcrendors "Go guy" was created during Wrath. I'm sure wrath didn't have mythic + (let alone mythic dungeons).

And the sad thing is, if you do get a tank that goes at a reasonable pace, you get dps (usually hunters or demon hunters) who run forward and pull additional trash because the tank is going "too slow". So it isn't only tanks who have that mentality.

[Eurhetemec]

I don't know if the majority enjoys fast runs, I do believe that the majority of WoWs playerbase enjoys it, but I have no data to support my belief. But I also believe that the majority here doesn't enjoy fast runs, but that has more to do that the majority of the good players have left for various discords. Before there was a living community of skilled players here that discussed how to become better, optimize your character etc. and now we have threads like this

The problem with this claim is that the dumbest fuckers on the planet, and most incompetent DPS and tanks in the universe definitely, unquestionable, only want to go fast and will never go at the right pace, even it results in repeated wipes from insane overpulls.

So you claiming going fast == good players is, well, horseshit? Total bollocks? Gibberish? Something of that nature. You don't want to be particularly slow, but you want to at the right pace, and avoid dumb wipes and stressing people half to death and so on, unless you're doing M+, but then you're likely all on voice, have a plan, are working well together and so on.

I guess what you can't see is the difference between a mindless rush and checkboxer obsessions with bad skips, and actual smooth, efficient, quick runs. This thread is about the former, not the latter. I love the latter, but I loathe the former.

And the sad thing is, if you do get a tank that goes at a reasonable pace, you get dps (usually hunters or demon hunters) who run forward and pull additional trash because the tank is going "too slow". So it isn't only tanks who have that mentality.

Yup, and they often have terrible judgment, don't understand mechanics, stand in every possible bad, don't understand healers are constrained by mana and so on. I had one of these dumb bitches nearly wipe us, the healer says OOM and started drinking before they'd even typed it, and the little shit who nearly wiped us has the temerity to say "Healer start drinking". Man if you could reach through screens and punch people, jesus.

[iperson]

This mindset formed back in WotLK, when badges were the only goal, so players tried to skip everything else and get to last boss as fast, as possible. And instead of doing something to prevent players from doing it, Blizzard decided to use this situation. That's how "time run" content appeared in this game. I also don't like such kind of content. For example I like to do dungeons properly. Overall half of content is ruined by either timers or soft-timers in this game.

laughs in mechanar

[courtlung]

I've played healer a bit over the years, but never really tank. I really don't like the rush either, I find it irritating and needlessly aggressive. One thing it is forcing me to consider is rolling up a tank myself, just so I can start groups with the explicit intention of having a more calm experience. I'm curious how well that would work, if there are a bunch of likeminded people scanning the m0 listings, or if the community has fully moved on to the new mode.

[Biomega]

Timers are necessary to put pressure on damage dealers.

If things were untimed in M+, for example, it'd be a massive slog with ultra-defensive setups grinding their way through insane key levels that take hours to complete. Nobody wants 3 tanks 2 healers waiting each pull for full defensive cooldowns so that maybe by midnight they can have one dungeon done.

As for overall clearing speed (when timers like M+ are not a factor) that's simply a function of people valuing their time, and the idea that you want to maximize the parts of the game you enjoy and minimize the parts you don't enjoy. For many people, doing dungeons is a chore - they do it because they have to, to complete some daily/weekly objective, to get gear, whatever. Not for the sheer pleasure of it. ESPECIALLY at lower levels like normal/heroic. That's not to say there are no people who do enjoy this and do it for the fun of it, of course; just that they are a minority in the overall scheme of game activities.

The real problem is that you can't choose, or are unduly punished for not making certain choices. Blizzard keeps going on about "doing the content you want to do" but the road to that goal is paved with requirements that very often are best/most efficiently met by doing things you DON'T want to do. Gearing up for PvE by doing PvP, for example; or getting ready for raiding by doing dungeons; or farming normal-mode dungeons you would never ever go into except your legendary recipe drops there and you just want to spam 50 runs; or whatever. As a result, people want to spend as little time doing something they hate as possible, so they can get to the actual good parts faster. That's why people group for WQ zergs, or do farming raids for reputation, etc. etc.

In a dungeon setting, the problem is that you are more or less randomly matched with people who may not enjoy the same things in the same way that you do. And thus the common denominator often becomes the perceived majority, pushing on the minority to conform or be excluded. That's unfortunate, but perhaps also not that surprising. People's time is, after all, one of the most precious resources, and you do not have a RIGHT to a stranger's time. It's nice if they give it to you, but they're not obliged to. And if you're not consenting to that, you can find a venue in which consent is better articulated (e.g. a guild run, or running with friends, or clearly labeling a group finder group, etc.).

That being said, it's of course never okay to be aggressive or abrasive about things. Insults and abuse are never the answer.

[rhorle]

Efficiency is sometimes put above other things in the game and people rarely want to be less efficient just because they are in a group that might not share those same concerns. It is like skipping a trash pack that 50% of the time gets pulled during the skip. The skip is still done because 50% of the time it saves a few seconds. It really doesn't save much but people still try to do it whenever they can.

It does get annoying. I have no problem with slowing down when the group needs it or going fast if the group can handle it. One of the reasons why I don't like to tank is because I would approach it more cautiously then some might like in the group. I still occasionally heal though but even then you encounter times where it feels like stopping to drink mana or something is seen as bad.

Of course Mythic it is different and I get that people that do timed runs would still play the same when doing different content. It is just being able to adjust to group play which isn't always easy.

[Rinaul]

No.

That's not the same behaviour. You're literally lying.

The behaviour described wasn't "kicking people for low DPS" or "kicking people for pulling by mistake". It wasn't to do with kicking at all.

The behaviour being described is not just rushing through dungeons, either, it's specifically trying to play dungeons like they're M+, trying to use elaborate or risky skips in N/H dungeons and so on. That has never been normal in any expansion pre-BfA.



I've literally never seen nor heard of this happening, and I've done countless thousands of dungeons over the last few years. As a tank, I'm not particularly fast - but I've never been kicked or threatened with a kick for being slow (or indeed for any reason, except once in the very early days where I was kicked to make room for someone's guildy, after I didn't drop group immediately when the demanded me to).

Oh I guess I just dreamt it happening to me. I guess because it didn't happen to you then it doesn't happen. I sure hope mom is still alive too since death hasn't happened to you either! /s

[huth]

So you claiming going fast == good players is, well, horseshit? Total bollocks? Gibberish? Something of that nature. You don't want to be particularly slow, but you want to at the right pace, and avoid dumb wipes and stressing people half to death and so on, unless you're doing M+, but then you're likely all on voice, have a plan, are working well together and so on.

I'd say it is even more important in M+. Wiping will generally cost more time than underpulling. And stressing out likely will just cause more wipes.

[Servos]

I'm wondering if the release of M+ might finally expose the issues(?) with target capped AOE that are now in place, and might prevent tanks from pulling massive packs since it doesn't really make sense to do that anymore. Though I suppose some might still say that it's still faster to do massive pulls and just wait the extra time until everything is dead anyway...

[Clozer]

No.

That's not the same behaviour. You're literally lying.

The behaviour described wasn't "kicking people for low DPS" or "kicking people for pulling by mistake". It wasn't to do with kicking at all.

The behaviour being described is not just rushing through dungeons, either, it's specifically trying to play dungeons like they're M+, trying to use elaborate or risky skips in N/H dungeons and so on. That has never been normal in any expansion pre-BfA.



I've literally never seen nor heard of this happening, and I've done countless thousands of dungeons over the last few years. As a tank, I'm not particularly fast - but I've never been kicked or threatened with a kick for being slow (or indeed for any reason, except once in the very early days where I was kicked to make room for someone's guildy, after I didn't drop group immediately when the demanded me to).

Trying to optimize the dungeon has nothing to do with toxic behaviour. People kicking people for low dps or pulling by mistake is the toxic behaviour. And that behaviour existed since forever. Why would I lie?

[Zyky]

I’m so sick of it. The toxic fucking m+ gogoggo mindset has ruined all forms of group content in this game. Now I can’t even enjoy a freaking NORMAL dungeon without the tank using m+ routes and going AS UBERWTTTDBBBQQQQ FAST AS POSSIBILE.

God don’t people just fuckijg do shit to enjoy it? Don’t people enjoy the environments in games anymore? Must everything be a means to an end, which must come as fast as possible because I NEED MY REWARD RN?

I haven’t ran a single normal dungeon where the tank wasn’t on fucking coke

It comes down to time efficiency. No time efficient player wants to waste 40 minutes in a normal or heroic. I know I have better things to do with my time than spend that kind of time in a normal, especially when I can finish it in 20 minutes with efficient pulls.

[huth]

Efficiency is sometimes put above other things in the game and people rarely want to be less efficient just because they are in a group that might not share those same concerns. It is like skipping a trash pack that 50% of the time gets pulled during the skip. The skip is still done because 50% of the time it saves a few seconds. It really doesn't save much but people still try to do it whenever they can.

If failing the skip adds more time than succeeding would save, doing the skip is actually inefficient in that scenario and the correct course would be to not attempt it.

Which fits just fine, since this is mostly done by people that have little to no understanding of why it is even being attempted.

- - - Updated - - -

It comes down to time efficiency. No time efficient player wants to waste 40 minutes in a normal or heroic. I know I have better things to do with my time than spend that kind of time in a normal, especially when I can finish it in 20 minutes with efficient pulls.

Then maybe they should learn what the group can take first, because pushing them over their limits will just make things less efficient. So will pushing them above what they are willing to deal with, for that matter. You're basically standing in your own way.

[MrMatticus]

I’m so sick of it. The toxic fucking m+ gogoggo mindset has ruined all forms of group content in this game. Now I can’t even enjoy a freaking NORMAL dungeon without the tank using m+ routes and going AS UBERWTTTDBBBQQQQ FAST AS POSSIBILE.

God don’t people just fuckijg do shit to enjoy it? Don’t people enjoy the environments in games anymore? Must everything be a means to an end, which must come as fast as possible because I NEED MY REWARD RN?

I haven’t ran a single normal dungeon where the tank wasn’t on fucking coke

Absolutely nothing wrong with speedy dungeons. Sitting there going slowly is boring as fuck.

[Zyky]

Then maybe they should learn what the group can take first, because pushing them over their limits will just make things less efficient. So will pushing them above what they are willing to deal with, for that matter. You're basically standing in your own way.

If a group can't handle some speed in a NORMAL dungeon, then it would be faster to leave the group and take the deserter and do other things while you wait for deserter to drop.

[arkanon]

If a group can't handle some speed in a NORMAL dungeon, then it would be faster to leave the group and take the deserter and do other things while you wait for deserter to drop.

I think you mean "in some extreme situations it could possibly be faster..." because we all know in the overwhelming majority of situations, this is not a true statement. A "slow" group might take 20 mins to complete a dungeon instead of 15. You make it sound like a "slow" group is taking 90 minutes+.

Even using your own numbers it doesnt add up at all.

- - - Updated - - -

Every time the tank takes a second longer than needed without telling us why I pull

Learn to be more efficient

Maybe the tank is trying to adapt to your extremely low dps.

Learn to do more DPS.

[huth]

If a group can't handle some speed in a NORMAL dungeon, then it would be faster to leave the group and take the deserter and do other things while you wait for deserter to drop.

If you're so hamstrung for time, you probably shouldn't have queued in the first place. That's still a problem with your efficiency, not the groups.

[Zyky]

I think you mean "in some extreme situations it could possibly be faster..." because we all know in the overwhelming majority of situations, this is not a true statement. A "slow" group might take 20 mins to complete a dungeon instead of 15. You make it sound like a "slow" group is taking 90 minutes+.

Even using your own numbers it doesnt add up at all.

I'm using the example given that it takes 40 minutes for a normal vs 20 minutes.

[arkanon]

A good tank/healer is able to pull as many mobs as possible and still live while the group can still try to maximize DPS. Although with the 5 target cap on most classes I'm not sure this is true anymore. Plus, with all the mob abilities being cast everywhere and immunity buffs/debufs you often have to stop DPS to dodge shit or run out of melee due to the cluster fuck in there. There's a happy medium between tanks running alone buck naked with vasoline down a dark alleyway and keeping a steady pace with few breaks so you can clear the dungeon effectively.

This 1000x this. The idea that a dungeon is always faster if you pull more mobs is outdated and just plain wrong in the current game.

- - - Updated - - -

I'm using the example given that it takes 40 minutes for a normal vs 20 minutes.

And like i said, and you quoted, your math doesnt add up at all.

[huth]

Maybe the tank is trying to adapt to your extremely low dps.

Learn to do more DPS.

Or it might have a DC, in which case Bennet just got himself(and possibly the group) killed.