Mandatory Maw - the biggest SL problem now?

[kamuimac]

Nope, not everything has to be fun in game. Also your fun is different from others peoples fun.

true that

thats why there are tens of thousands of guild to choose from - to find people who have similiar views on this matter as each individual player.

[Dawon]

As a decent player, running these things with my wife (also a decent player), yes Thorgast is a shitshow that need some serious fixing.

We're both mythic raiders and really never struggle with anything outside of pushing crazy keys or maybe the last 3 bosses in a raid tier. Thorgast have had us pulling the hair out of each others heads. Why? Well, Layer3 and the freaking randomness of things! We oneshotted first wing at Layer3 due to getting some OP anima, didnt even think twice about it. Went in to Upper Reaches and wiped several times on the last bosses, through several tires. Then eventually we got a few good Anima (20% dmg increase via DoorOfShadows and a few more like that) and murdered the boss in a TimeWarp window with basically no issue in the world, barely moved, zero healing needed and healing CDs (yes one of us run MW) still unused. Add to the fact that either you WIN the whole run and get your loot or you lose after just 3 pulls of the last boss and get NOTHING.

Yeah something is not right here. I am totally ok with either of the options, either it's hard as fukk and tuned for us having better gear OR it's rather smooth sailing for the majority of the community. This RNG bullshit needs to go. I really can't stress how useless it feels when you set your foot in there and from the first floor you just hope to get one or two powers that turn it into trivial. It's nothing more discouraging than reaching last floor, 45mins wasted and KNOW on beforehand that it will be next to impossible due to the shitty RNG anima you got.
To just have to run 6 floors over and over until you proc some random good spells instead of 20 versions of Polymorph or Speed-when-running-next-to-a-wall shit is NOT fun gameplay.

Either sort this rng shit so you have a bit more control without making every run a copy of the other or simply give us Soul Ash progress per floor. I.e. if you clear everything you get your 300 Ashes in one go, else you get as like 50 ash per floor you beat, making it possible to cap via just "failing" a couple of runs or cap in one go if you are capable of it. Stop the All or Nothing crap, at least as long as it's 100% reliant on RNG and not your skills+gear.

[T-34]

Nah it doesn't work like this. This is only true for new players. People who already played for some time don't get better.

You play however you want, but I don't want to play with willfully bad players.
For me a player that doesn't gem, enchant, optimize a willfully bad player, and such a person is worse than a noob, because the wilfully bad player knows better.

[Huzzaa]

My main issue is that it takes too much time each day

Agreed. It looks like they at least managed to not make any of that stuff absolutely mandatory, apart the weeklies and Torghast.

For a person with a full time job and plans every evening, it's not exactly viable to throw in yet another 3 hours of activities to devote for the game. It still does but luckily to a lesser degree than Legion or BFA, with it's muh Azelhite.

[Neotokyo]

I hate the maw.. passionately hate that place. I hate it's mandatory, I hate that you lose currency when you die and it takes forever to get back to your body. I hate we can't progress our renown without going there. The zone just makes me irrationally angry.

[Kallisto]

oh boy...this mentality is so frustrating,you actualy think only world first guilds care about character progression??? even guilds in the top 10.000 will demand from their players to have full gems,they actualy need it more than the top guilds because they are not as good so on that alone your argument falls apart

also,we have seen every single time,that players and guilds on all levels will push for the TINIEST increase in power


and u may not know this....but....gems on all your gear...IS A HUGE POWER INCREASE

Those gems are not going to turn a wipe into a kill. What is going to turn that wipe into a kill is 95% of that time stop standing in shit or interrupt the cast. If the wipes are caused by same people telling them to get gems isn't going to make them better. Giving them ultimatums to get good or get out will.

[T-34]

Those gems are not going to turn a wipe into a kill. What is going to turn that wipe into a kill is 95% of that time stop standing in shit or interrupt the cast. If the wipes are caused by same people telling them to get gems isn't going to make them better. Giving them ultimatums to get good or get out will.

A player that plays his class well and that doesn't stand in shit and has optimized his character with the proper gems, enchants and gear will perform better than a player that plays his class well and that doesn't stand in shit, but who hasn't optimized his character.

This isn't a choice between a good player that hasn't optimized and bad player that has optimized, but between a player of equal skill that has or hasn't optimized.

And my anectdotal experience shows me that a person that cares enough about his and others time to optimize his character also is a person that cares enough about his and others time to not stand in shit and who will interrupt and attack the correct target.
And it is also my anectodatal experience that players that don't optimize their character also often are those that stand in shit, don't interrupt and attack the wrong target.
Good players don't want to play with bad players and one of the best way to filter out a bad player at a glance is to see how he has optimized his character.

[deenman]

Those gems are not going to turn a wipe into a kill. What is going to turn that wipe into a kill is 95% of that time stop standing in shit or interrupt the cast. If the wipes are caused by same people telling them to get gems isn't going to make them better. Giving them ultimatums to get good or get out will.

but bosses have dps checks,some have multiple phases of dps checks,and early on,a 4-5% increase per player will without a doubt be the difference,in my own experience wwe have had so many 1% and under 1% wipes,yes...those wipes could have been avoided by one less death or mistake,but it would 100% been avoided by something like everyone having that extra dps

[erifwodahs]

Those gems are not going to turn a wipe into a kill. What is going to turn that wipe into a kill is 95% of that time stop standing in shit or interrupt the cast. If the wipes are caused by same people telling them to get gems isn't going to make them better. Giving them ultimatums to get good or get out will.

Maw is not mandatory as such by any means besides one weekly quest, so complaints that it is somehow a big deal is very dishonest, but your claim is ignorant.
While I do agree that people should rectify their errors first, but gems can absolutely change a wipe into a kill no matter what you say. There has been plenty of raid kills where a prepot made the difference. Hell, our jaina mythic kill was done by a paladin in a bubble which I guess would fall into 5% gap, but incremental power gains helped us to push to the situation where that paladin could kill it instead of us wiping at the wall or sth.
Power stacks up - get better, get enchants, get gems, get pots, get runes, get vantus and before you know you have very tangible difference in power. Otherwise you could say that about every enchant, food buff or a prepot.

[Kuntantee]

As a decent player, running these things with my wife (also a decent player), yes Thorgast is a shitshow that need some serious fixing.

We're both mythic raiders and really never struggle with anything outside of pushing crazy keys or maybe the last 3 bosses in a raid tier. Thorgast have had us pulling the hair out of each others heads. Why? Well, Layer3 and the freaking randomness of things! We oneshotted first wing at Layer3 due to getting some OP anima, didnt even think twice about it. Went in to Upper Reaches and wiped several times on the last bosses, through several tires. Then eventually we got a few good Anima (20% dmg increase via DoorOfShadows and a few more like that) and murdered the boss in a TimeWarp window with basically no issue in the world, barely moved, zero healing needed and healing CDs (yes one of us run MW) still unused. Add to the fact that either you WIN the whole run and get your loot or you lose after just 3 pulls of the last boss and get NOTHING.

Yeah something is not right here. I am totally ok with either of the options, either it's hard as fukk and tuned for us having better gear OR it's rather smooth sailing for the majority of the community. This RNG bullshit needs to go. I really can't stress how useless it feels when you set your foot in there and from the first floor you just hope to get one or two powers that turn it into trivial. It's nothing more discouraging than reaching last floor, 45mins wasted and KNOW on beforehand that it will be next to impossible due to the shitty RNG anima you got.
To just have to run 6 floors over and over until you proc some random good spells instead of 20 versions of Polymorph or Speed-when-running-next-to-a-wall shit is NOT fun gameplay.

Either sort this rng shit so you have a bit more control without making every run a copy of the other or simply give us Soul Ash progress per floor. I.e. if you clear everything you get your 300 Ashes in one go, else you get as like 50 ash per floor you beat, making it possible to cap via just "failing" a couple of runs or cap in one go if you are capable of it. Stop the All or Nothing crap, at least as long as it's 100% reliant on RNG and not your skills+gear.

Which classes/specs?

[Fistfighter]

.
b. Make it tri-daily or maybe even weekly cap instead, so I am not forced to do this cancer daily. The shit is not even hard, it's just a massive waste of time.

Basically, we need the staggered daily content so you dontt burn out doing the same shit every day

[Arainie]

the gems power will also scale better with more gear/legenderies,if you gem say inttelect or mastery that directly increases a dmg type,it will also boost procs/legendery effects etc,so it shouldnt go down in value by much

also,every single player doing 4% more dps is pretty big,i remember very clearly in legion when everyone got their 5% aetefact dmg boost,the difference was sharply felt

It actually works the opposite way, especially considering there are no mainstat gems anymore. Each gem you socket will diminish in relative power as your gear gets stronger, even more so if you hit the secondary stat DR for the secondary stat you're gemming. Once they add epic gems you can count on a small boost in relative gem power, which will again diminish the stronger your gear gets.

I'm not arguing that 2-3-4-5% or whatever the number we want to float around doesn't matter at all, I'm arguing that it's a very small boost that most likely won't be in the guilds interest to require all members to have.

[Dawon]

Which classes/specs?

MW + frost mage. If we get a boss that likes to smack faces in melee and just keep running after the mage (no dps while running if boss hits too hard on cloth), it is hard as hell atm unless lucky on Anima powers. Last run we got that Caster dude with the curse and silence-pools on ground and he was insanely easy as a comparison.

[cparle87]

kyrian ability doesn't make me move faster.
transport system doesn't show up on the map, i'll probably use it when i get an addon that puts it on the map and shows where it goes.
the dog mounts are nice but i'm still spending more time on foot walking than a actually doing content.

if flying in a straight line is boring, walking in a straight line KNOWING it doesn't have to be this bad is worse. (and yeah, i think i walked like 800 yards on the roads today on the way to the daily quest before a dog guy passed along)

That frame of mind puzzles me. Consider this: "Flight paths don't show up on the map, I'll probably use it when I get an addon that puts it on the map and shows where it goes." You realize they're functionally identical systems?

[kaminaris]

A player that plays his class well and that doesn't stand in shit and has optimized his character with the proper gems, enchants and gear will perform better than a player that plays his class well and that doesn't stand in shit, but who hasn't optimized his character.

Again, this is wishful thinking. There are no two equal players that just differs optimization.

[Unholyground]

Being a Zandalari Shaman in the Maw is great 55% speeeeeeeed lol.

[Kuntantee]

MW + frost mage. If we get a boss that likes to smack faces in melee and just keep running after the mage (no dps while running if boss hits too hard on cloth), it is hard as hell atm unless lucky on Anima powers. Last run we got that Caster dude with the curse and silence-pools on ground and he was insanely easy as a comparison.

I failed as a DH with 155-160 ilvl with cycle of hatred build. Partly because of poor CD management on my end and partly because of poor upgrades which that build relies on. I failed and didn't give it a god for some days. Yesterday, I butchered lvl 3 with First Blood build, maybe it's my items, maybe it's the build but for DH's its pretty easy.

[God Save The King]

I disagree that the maw is hardcore. That's the aesthetic they went for, but it's trivial world content like anything else they've made.

I do agree that it is easily the biggest problem in Shadowlands. Daily content is your anima channeling, some adventures, a handful of world quests, and then ages in the maw trying to fill up that bar. I easily spend the most time in the Maw compared to anything else and it's just boring. There's hardly anything to do, it's a small zone, and it's just camping rares until they show up and moving to the new space so you slowly fill your bar. I wouldn't mind as much if the dailies and events gave all 5 tiers and the rares were just an alternative, but the daily content won't even give 2 tiers.

Then there are weekly quests that take more time in the Maw, along with all the story/campaign stuff. I'm already sick of seeing the maw. It might be better if there was at least some level of challenge or difficulty, but there isn't.

Unfortunately as a mythic raider it is fully required for sockets/conduits, so I need to max it out daily for Ven'ari rep.

[deenman]

It actually works the opposite way, especially considering there are no mainstat gems anymore. Each gem you socket will diminish in relative power as your gear gets stronger, even more so if you hit the secondary stat DR for the secondary stat you're gemming. Once they add epic gems you can count on a small boost in relative gem power, which will again diminish the stronger your gear gets.

I'm not arguing that 2-3-4-5% or whatever the number we want to float around doesn't matter at all, I'm arguing that it's a very small boost that most likely won't be in the guilds interest to require all members to have.

huh?rly?the main stat gems are gone?dang,well anyways mastery is a direct increase for many classes in dmg,basicaly like a main stat,versatility gives flat dmg increase

[Yarathir]

Open minded is wrong word, If anything you could say emphatic, simply because I can understand other people point of view even if completely and totally contradicts with my logic. And in fact, I do enjoy Maw, more than other template-like zones (except for aesthetics).

https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...1#post52847144

The problem here is that you're going for a two-pronged approach.

1) Something different from the norm = interesting
2) If one person likes it = thing is good

I'm not saying a game should be breezy and offer no challenge. Overcoming challenge and being rewarded for it is a major part of most game structures. The thing here is that the Maw doesn't do that well. It basically takes away things you've grown accustomed to or worked to use in the first place, and then tells you "go earn this all over again. Traversing through this place without wanting to throw yourself off a cliff out of pure frustration is going to be your reward for it."