Naxxramas progression thread

[Heathy]

it seems to be mostly the same as naxx 80 except, its tuned slightly tigher iirc there was some recovery in wrath while there is only recovery if your OT is second on threat. one thing is for sure though, if you haven't been doing the 4h on private its highly unlikely that you'll just one shot them, even if everyone knows what to do you can still wipe and the chances of you getting it right the first time are pretty much zero. certain bosses are obviously going to be harder than the 80 variant for certain reasons for example, kel'thuzad's worst ability is the iceblock that chains into ppl, well with 40 ppl thats going to be more likely to happen than with 25. thaddius is the same principle more ppl = more chances to mess up.

[Tsyplenk]

The fact that not that many guilds have gotten KT is just an indicator that not a lot of people want to farm Greater Shadow Protection potions all day.

Classic has some tougher logistics, but everyone here knows that most classes have a 1-button rotation, except for rogues, who cap out at what, 4 buttons?

The fact that not many people clear Mythic raids is just an indicator that no one wants to invest that much time into raiding all day.

[Kralljin]

Is it fair to say that this current version is easier than Naxx when WOTLK launched? At this that lasted a bit longer.

You mean where they intentionally removed mechanics to make it easier?

Here's a page with all those differences listed.
https://wow.gamepedia.com/Changes_be..._3.0_Naxxramas

While some info is vague / inaccurate, it lists all major changes, which rarely go in favour of the 3.0 version in terms of difficulty.

Even if you want to use "speed" as metric, Wotlk is indeed faster
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qhPylGRmUXE
Cleartime <1h.

If you want to use 25man instead of 10man.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IW6n87Bb-JU
Cleartime 1:12

And those were done in 2009, now imagine what people will do when they optimize the shit out of that.

[Skandulous]

Rofl. How many more things do you want to add that I never actually said?

#1 I didnt say it was impossible to solo a Classic Dungeon. I made a comparative statement that in Retail, if we lose our healer I can carry the group such that I could nearly solo the place myself. I certainly can keep myself and 3 DPS alive. in Classic as a tank, you cannot do this. You don't have the self-heal abilities for yourself let alone for others. Maybe a warrior can Diamond flask all pulls and get by fine - sure. But a Warrior cannot heal the 3 DPS he is with. A Druid and a Paladin could possibly do it, but i'm doubtful they could do it, hold threat and not die without having significantly better gear than the instance provides

#2 I never said I solo mythic 0s without preparation. This is just an outright lie.

#3 We both made no mention of buffs.

If you want to have a discussion where you misrepresent my point to the level of lying, either intentionally or not, then I'm not going to respond again.

- - - Updated - - -



Mythic raiding is by FAR harder than ANYTHING in Classic. There is 0 argument to be had saying otherwise.
All of the NAXX bosses are simple mechanically. Patchwerk for example is the definition of tank and spank.

But to say that NAXX is "lol ez" in comparison to say LFR/Normal/Heroic raids just feels way off.

In that 343 guilds who cleared in week 1 (being 13,720 people), you will have a fairly high number of them having played extensively on private servers thus understanding the fights mechanically very well.

If we re-released BfA it wouldn't take the top guilds much time at all do completely reclear it because of 2 main reasons (a) they had learn the best strategy that works (b) they have the muscle memory/experience to avoid mistakes.

I will repeat again: Mythic raiding is harder than Classic raiding by a LONG shot. They're simply not comparable. However, taking that to then mean that NAXX is "lol ez" isn't right.

NAXX fights that are notLFR ez.
Patchwerk: If you lose one of your 4 tanks due to hateful strike then you will spiral and wipe very quickly.
Counter: Tanks need to have enough HP to withstand the hateful strike while your healers top them back up quickly. With gear + world buffs and flasks this is easy. Without, it can be tricky.
Loetheb: Your healers are limited in how much they can heal so you need a roster to ensure tanks stay alive without running out of healers. This is a relatively simple mechanic that doesn't take long to learn. Your dps has needs to meet a moderate DPS check to ensure the raid doesnt wipe to the soft enrage of Shadow Damage
Counter: Experience is likely all you need to learn this one.
4H: The original roadblock. You need to run 8 tanks to ensure the bosses are correctly tanked. If a taunt misses this can cause a wipe, if you get too many of the debuff = wipe. Gearing can be challenging but with prep this shouldnt take too long.
Counter: Execute the perfected strategy correctly and you'll get this down. Probably takes 10-20 wipes for the raid to clearly learn/practice.
Saph: Ez boss mechanically but punishing due to Frost resist. Over time as crafted frost resist gear is made available this fight will become trivial.
Counter: get FR gear, 'duh'
KT: Guilds who could get past Saph with limited FR gear available aren't going to have a tough time on KT. Those we've raided WOTLK know what this fights like. Don't miss the mechanics and you'll get it down.
Counter: like 4h, just a few wipes and your raid will learn. Probably easier than 4h.

So to summarise having raiding Heroic/Mythic in WOD/LEGION/BFA I would compare the above bosses to Heroic Raid level bosses. The rest of them in there are easy.

But Heroic raid is ez too right?? kek.

40 non mouth breathers with full world buffs and consumes makes it all a joke. It was hard 18 yrs ago but not today.

[WingsofLiberty]

You mean where they intentionally removed mechanics to make it easier?

Here's a page with all those differences listed.
https://wow.gamepedia.com/Changes_be..._3.0_Naxxramas

While some info is vague / inaccurate, it lists all major changes, which rarely go in favour of the 3.0 version in terms of difficulty.

Even if you want to use "speed" as metric, Wotlk is indeed faster
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qhPylGRmUXE
Cleartime <1h.

If you want to use 25man instead of 10man.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IW6n87Bb-JU
Cleartime 1:12

And those were done in 2009, now imagine what people will do when they optimize the shit out of that.

Most of those are pure BS though. I'll give you an example:

Patchwerk

Enrage timer was very difficult to make and required very high (For the time) DPS to beat.

The fight tested all 3 roles. Tanks needed to be geared enough to survive the hateful strikes, healers needed to be geared enough to keep the tanks up due to the massive damage, and DPS needed to be geared enough to beat the tough enrage timer.

Enrage timer was 7 minutes instead of 6 (But was harder to beat).

The dps check is laughable, around 340 dps if you don't count tanks, around 300 if you do. I pull 800 dps on fire without buffs. The fight is a healer check, there are literally no mechanics for the tanks other than having a shield to eat the Hateful strikes.

Another example:

Heigan the Unclean

Heigan pulled directly when you entered the room. Dance phase was faster.

Heigan had an AOE mana burn that would deal damage equal to the amount of mana burned.

During the entire fight, 3 random raid members would be ported to the gauntlet before Loatheb, and needed to get back before being killed (due to the gauntlet being filled up with poison gas).

The gauntlet is literally faceroll and actually easier than having to dance, just hug a wall and 1 shot the tentacles. The mana burn is a non-factor cause, guess what, all the ranged dps stay on the platform. This was most likely changed in WOTLK because melee mana users were not totally useless.

Admittedly, the 4H fight was fairly different compared to the WOTLK version (and way easier), especially due to the 8 warrior tanks requirement (which would've made no sense in a 10/25 man version anyway).

With the right consumables, Naxx40 is at most 15-20% harder than the Naxx25 version (considering an AQ40 gearded group and a WOTLK heroic gearded one respectively).

Also, that 1:12 25 man speed run happened 6 months after Naxx25 was released, the 1:21 40 man speed run happened less than two hours after Naxx40 was released.

[Kralljin]

The dps check is laughable, around 340 dps if you don't count tanks, around 300 if you do. I pull 800 dps on fire without buffs. The fight is a healer check, there are literally no mechanics for the tanks other than having a shield to eat the Hateful strikes.

I said inaccurate, so there's that.

And the difficulty of a gearcheck fight is obviously extremely reliant on your gear, Naxx wasn't tuned around the gear most people have now on Classic.

The gauntlet is literally faceroll and actually easier than having to dance, just hug a wall and 1 shot the tentacles.

Considering said teleport wasn't limited to the dance phase, it made the fight harder, because you had less people present killing the boss.
I'm not saying this made this encounter super difficult, but don't imply it made the fight even easier.

Especially on a boss that was notorious for filtering a lot of bad players, when you lose a chunk of your raid to the dance, then some players getting teleported prolongs the fight even further, as compared to nothing happening at all.

Admittedly, the 4H fight was fairly different compared to the WOTLK version (and way easier), especially due to the 8 warrior tanks requirement (which would've made no sense in a 10/25 man version anyway).

And Instructor (No LoS tanking needed, nor MC debuffs on adds present)
And Noth (failing to dispel is far more dangerous due to a lack of raid CD's / AoE healing in general)
And Gluth (Not Taunt Immune, no AoE fear)
And Thaddius (as Stalagg / outright lost abilities)
Kel'thuzad no longer MC'ing the Tank ; Frost blast doing less damage, Voidzone going off faster.

With the right consumables, Naxx40 is at most 15-20% harder than the Naxx25 version (considering an AQ40 gearded group and a WOTLK heroic gearded one respectively).

Funny, you're the one pulling numbers out of your ass now.
Not to mention that the Class powercreep that happened with Wotlk made any errors actually much easier to deal with.

When Classic Wotlk happens and people are willing to put the same amount of effort into speedrunning as they did in Classic, that place will be demolished even harder than in Classic.

Also, that 1:12 25 man speed run happened 6 months after Naxx25 was released, the 1:21 40 man speed run happened less than two hours after Naxx40 was released.

Naxx wasn't tuned around having full BiS gear from AQ40, because barely anyone in the world had AQ40 BiS when Naxx came out.
Also, i doubt those people put the same effort into speedrunning Naxx as the topguilds that are doing it now.

Trivia here: C'thun worldfirst kill happened 8 weeks before Naxx release.

[Magneto]

Naxxramas is todays Pac-Mac. Hard back then, after 20 Years just a nostalgic thing and some will still struggle, but only because they didnt prepare for 15+ years or could care less.

[WingsofLiberty]

I said inaccurate, so there's that.

And the difficulty of a gearcheck fight is obviously extremely reliant on your gear, Naxx wasn't tuned around the gear most people have now on Classic.

Considering said teleport wasn't limited to the dance phase, it made the fight harder, because you had less people present killing the boss.
I'm not saying this made this encounter super difficult, but don't imply it made the fight even easier.

Especially on a boss that was notorious for filtering a lot of bad players, when you lose a chunk of your raid to the dance, then some players getting teleported prolongs the fight even further, as compared to nothing happening at all.

And Instructor (No LoS tanking needed, nor MC debuffs on adds present)
And Noth (failing to dispel is far more dangerous due to a lack of raid CD's / AoE healing in general)
And Gluth (Not Taunt Immune, no AoE fear)
And Thaddius (as Stalagg / outright lost abilities)
Kel'thuzad no longer MC'ing the Tank ; Frost blast doing less damage, Voidzone going off faster.

Funny, you're the one pulling numbers out of your ass now.
Not to mention that the Class powercreep that happened with Wotlk made any errors actually much easier to deal with.

When Classic Wotlk happens and people are willing to put the same amount of effort into speedrunning as they did in Classic, that place will be demolished even harder than in Classic.

Naxx wasn't tuned around having full BiS gear from AQ40, because barely anyone in the world had AQ40 BiS when Naxx came out.
Also, i doubt those people put the same effort into speedrunning Naxx as the topguilds that are doing it now.

Trivia here: C'thun worldfirst kill happened 8 weeks before Naxx release.

Most, if not all, of these changes are because having 8 tanks in a 25 man instance... was unfeasible at best.

Also, the gauntlet literally takes 10 seconds. That part is a gimmick and nothing else, almost as gimmicky as Nef's and KT's add phases. No real difficulty, just another chore.

[NordWitcher]

The fact that not many people clear Mythic raids is just an indicator that no one wants to invest that much time into raiding all day.

Maybe its just me, But I've never found raiding to be personally rewarding. Its different than the adrenaline you feel when you defeat a boss in Bloodborne or even Dark Souls. I don't mind wiping 10-50 times on those bosses and then succeeding, but I definitely have never looked at raiding like that even though it kinda should be.

I think WTLK made raiding "fun". Fights were easy and basic to understand and to pull off and challenging enough that rewarded you with higher ilevel gear if you wanted to push said content. I remember a few years back when I was raiding in Destiny. I realized that raiding was never for me. It just was not fun spending 5 hours on a Saturday wiping to Crotas. However, with modern graphics and game design, developers feel like they need new and more challenging encounters to keep encounters fresh and yet you have bosses in Bloodborne and Demon Souls with old mechanics that still test you time and time again. The thing with raiding is that so much depends on 19 or whatever other people not screwing up and doing their job which I feel removes the "fun" from it unless of course you in a top tier guild with highly skilled players.

[Tsyplenk]

Maybe its just me, But I've never found raiding to be personally rewarding. Its different than the adrenaline you feel when you defeat a boss in Bloodborne or even Dark Souls. I don't mind wiping 10-50 times on those bosses and then succeeding, but I definitely have never looked at raiding like that even though it kinda should be.

I think WTLK made raiding "fun". Fights were easy and basic to understand and to pull off and challenging enough that rewarded you with higher ilevel gear if you wanted to push said content. I remember a few years back when I was raiding in Destiny. I realized that raiding was never for me. It just was not fun spending 5 hours on a Saturday wiping to Crotas. However, with modern graphics and game design, developers feel like they need new and more challenging encounters to keep encounters fresh and yet you have bosses in Bloodborne and Demon Souls with old mechanics that still test you time and time again. The thing with raiding is that so much depends on 19 or whatever other people not screwing up and doing their job which I feel removes the "fun" from it unless of course you in a top tier guild with highly skilled players.

I was just poking fun at his logic and using satire

[Kralljin]

Most, if not all, of these changes are because having 8 tanks in a 25 man instance... was unfeasible at best.

Instructor - None of the mechanical changes are related to the number of tanks
Noth - Decursing is not tank duty
Gluth - you just press taunt instead having to worry about threat generation
Thaddius - Still a two tank fight
Kel'thuzad - Arguably only the MC change is tank related, which is however also a massive nerf to the fight (not to mention the removal of its taunt immunity)
The remaining changes have nothing to do with tanks, though.
And those are just the changes i've listed.

You somehow take the 8 Tanks thing from 4HM and extrapolate that onto the entire raid, you didn't need 8 Tanks for the any fights in Naxx besides 4HM, not even close.

[Ten15]

Most of those are pure BS though. I'll give you an example:

Patchwerk

Enrage timer was very difficult to make and required very high (For the time) DPS to beat.

The fight tested all 3 roles. Tanks needed to be geared enough to survive the hateful strikes, healers needed to be geared enough to keep the tanks up due to the massive damage, and DPS needed to be geared enough to beat the tough enrage timer.

Enrage timer was 7 minutes instead of 6 (But was harder to beat).

The dps check is laughable, around 340 dps if you don't count tanks, around 300 if you do. I pull 800 dps on fire without buffs. The fight is a healer check, there are literally no mechanics for the tanks other than having a shield to eat the Hateful strikes.

Another example:

Heigan the Unclean

Heigan pulled directly when you entered the room. Dance phase was faster.

Heigan had an AOE mana burn that would deal damage equal to the amount of mana burned.

During the entire fight, 3 random raid members would be ported to the gauntlet before Loatheb, and needed to get back before being killed (due to the gauntlet being filled up with poison gas).

The gauntlet is literally faceroll and actually easier than having to dance, just hug a wall and 1 shot the tentacles. The mana burn is a non-factor cause, guess what, all the ranged dps stay on the platform. This was most likely changed in WOTLK because melee mana users were not totally useless.

Admittedly, the 4H fight was fairly different compared to the WOTLK version (and way easier), especially due to the 8 warrior tanks requirement (which would've made no sense in a 10/25 man version anyway).

With the right consumables, Naxx40 is at most 15-20% harder than the Naxx25 version (considering an AQ40 gearded group and a WOTLK heroic gearded one respectively).

Also, that 1:12 25 man speed run happened 6 months after Naxx25 was released, the 1:21 40 man speed run happened less than two hours after Naxx40 was released.

It's one thing to speedrun a raid when you are fully geared. Heck remember Paragon was doing Heroic LK with no buff once they had it on farm.

To just walk in there with no Naxx gear and speed run the place?

Look at raids before the heroic/mythic toggle was allowed. Black Temple, Sunwell, Ulduar, TK etc. It was not a walkover. Guilds weren't going in there and speed running it in less than 2 hours.

[lortsy12]

To just walk in there with no Naxx gear and speed run the place?

Look at raids before the heroic/mythic toggle was allowed. Black Temple, Sunwell, Ulduar, TK etc. It was not a walkover. Guilds weren't going in there and speed running it in less than 2 hours.

And Naxx still isn't a walkover. Guilds who didn't spend years raiding it on private servers keep wiping in there and don't clear it even one raid night. About BT, Sunwell etc., did people also spend years practicig those raids before world first kills?

[Heathy]

its harder for horde I think the alliance seem to get better parses and clear speeds, we did 4 raids this week when we normally only do 2, we managed to get 4h down tonight, so next week we have to try to get 3 wings down in 1 raid so we can do 1 wing and practice saph in our second raid. its gunna take some clears upto wherever you can get to before the t3 gained (and repetition) starts just carrying you through those first couple of wings. with the t2 and aq40 gear its kinda balanced like any progression raid where you perform ok but you aren't exactly facerolling it yet. I'm pretty happy that we got 13/15 in week one, thats decent, one other horde guild on our realm have the same no horde have cleared it yet, 3 ally guilds have cleared it now. everyone else is like at saph or 4h or less.

https://classic.warcraftlogs.com/ser...tion=5&boss=-1

what it looks like on my realm at the end of week 1, resets tomorrow. its quite impressive the amount of guilds running it per server. I know a few guilds made it to naxx on my retail server but no where near as many. but the participation is there, I guess there are guilds that aren't logged too.

[Nitros14]

Anyone who's actually doing Naxxramas can see this is blatantly much harder than the WOTLK version.

I cleared 15/15 the first week of WOTLK with a trade chat pug with minimal coordination.

In the classic reddit people are getting excited because their pug killed 3 bosses.

6% of guilds that have killed one boss have full cleared.

Only 42% of guilds are 8/15 or better.

[czarek]

Anyone who's actually doing Naxxramas can see this is blatantly much harder than the WOTLK version.

I cleared 15/15 the first week of WOTLK with a trade chat pug with minimal coordination.

In the classic reddit people are getting excited because their pug killed 3 bosses.

6% of guilds that have killed one boss have full cleared.

Only 42% of guilds are 8/15 or better.

U did wotlk naxx full clear with a PUG at 1st week? Rofl that sounds ridiculously not true TBH.

And yes. Classic Naxx is much harder thats the 1st thing. 2nd almost no one entered Naxx during Vanilla times. I know there is a lot of private server players but for sure most played wotlk on private servers as i know. And to be sure mainstream player base plays only on official servers.

[deenman]

U did wotlk naxx full clear with a PUG at 1st week? Rofl that sounds ridiculously not true TBH.

And yes. Classic Naxx is much harder thats the 1st thing. 2nd almost no one entered Naxx during Vanilla times. I know there is a lot of private server players but for sure most played wotlk on private servers as i know. And to be sure mainstream player base plays only on official servers.

dont see why a naxx pug week one is so crazy,people cleared naxx day 1 of release if im remembering right,or week one release

wrath naxx had 2 major nerfs,the numbers % was far more forgiving than the vanila version,players had way more hp and took less dmg,and wrath classes were far more superior than vanila with more tools,survivability and burst,granted the world buffs in vanila proly would have made it similar,but i dont think anyone cleared naxx vanila with world buffs early on

[czarek]

dont see why a naxx pug week one is so crazy,people cleared naxx day 1 of release if im remembering right,or week one release

wrath naxx had 2 major nerfs,the numbers % was far more forgiving than the vanila version,players had way more hp and took less dmg,and wrath classes were far more superior than vanila with more tools,survivability and burst,granted the world buffs in vanila proly would have made it similar,but i dont think anyone cleared naxx vanila with world buffs early on

Yep. I cleard wotlk naxx with a guild. Pugs are still pugs thats mental.

[IKT]

Yep. I cleard wotlk naxx with a guild. Pugs are still pugs thats mental.

Yeah pugs clearing wotlk naxx week 1 is a bit of an exaggeration but vanilla naxx and wotlk naxx are practically different instances.

[uglykermit]

Naxxramas is opening soon and it's time for final race in WoW Classic! I hope we see longer race this time due to sheer difficulty of Naxxramas 40.

In previous races I was too optimistic about race lenght and now I have calculated the lenght it should take for world first guild to complete the raid: 67.85 minutes calculated via difficulty multipliers, amount of yards required to walk in comparison to previous raids and much more. I hope my calculations are incorrect and we see much longer race.

What are your predictions about length and who will win? I think Onslaught will get it this time as well.

I hope you all get you some Naxx, was fun once.. not twice ha!~