Tanking doesn't feel fun anymore

[Nybras]

I literally came on the forums to post how freaking OP paladin tanking is and THIS is one of the biggest reasons why. I'm sitting here grabbing 8-12 mobs (some run back so I can't always get as large of a group as I'd like), throw conc down, HOR, judge, SOR, divine toll and like nearly everything is dead in a matter of like 10 seconds. What I hate is when there's only 1-2 mobs. Its like the game slows down so much when there's less things to hit. I'm killing shit faster on my prot pally than I do on my dps classes lol. I don't know what @Nybras is doing wrong (not using the right spells, not picking the right talents, not being Kyrian...who knows) but prot paladin is by far the most OP tanking class in the game and I can see why every guide ranks prot paladin as the top choice for tanking in Shadowlands so far.

About 4 posts up, I said I was doing it wrong.

I was helping a guildie with a dungeon the other day, and I have the legendry that makes shield do that aoe pulse after avengers... I was top dps in that run... by about 2k. It was very nice.

[Easo]

Most times it's even better to not use SotR, as you need a specific amount of incoming damage that this is even remotely as good as WoG. Pretty funny, if you ask me.
Ofc, using SotR to reduce bursty dmg is prefered. In higher keys you obviously take enough dmg so that SotR is better to keep up.

This is the biggest thing I currently dislike - the emphasis on self-healing is high, but the moment SoTR is down someone like Sludgefist (though it is a gear check, to be fair) noticably wrecks my face in and then I have to cast WoG NOW or I die only for the next hit to bring me low again in just a second because I did not have the armour up to make in incoming damage managable, thus it becomes inescapable circle of doom.
It just does not feel 100% right. Would probably like having WoG casts be rarer, but stay as powerful as they are now and instead cast more SoTR.

[vian]

Honestly, I haven't enjoyed tanking since TBC, especially on warrior.

[Bloodyleech]

This is the biggest thing I currently dislike - the emphasis on self-healing is high, but the moment SoTR is down someone like Sludgefist (though it is a gear check, to be fair) noticably wrecks my face in and then I have to cast WoG NOW or I die only for the next hit to bring me low again in just a second because I did not have the armour up to make in incoming damage managable, thus it becomes inescapable circle of doom.
It just does not feel 100% right. Would probably like having WoG casts be rarer, but stay as powerful as they are now and instead cast more SoTR.

Yeah I feel you.
Maybe Blizz should put a cd on WoG for prot and/or ret? Like it was before SL with the selfheal (/talented targetheal). This way the gameplay would be once again "SoTR or die", with occasionally being able to WoG someone or yourself. Maybe an interaction, too? Using so-many SoTR makes the next WoG free? Would fix PvP, too.
This way one should have almost permanently SoTR up if I'm not that wrong, but you def need more heal from others.

[prwraith]

Divine toll is nice, but it's basically worthless in raid. Venthyr is godmode and so fun. Those hammer of wraths + wings + hallowed ground is just game over man. prot pumps so much damage. I enjoy prot, I don't enjoy how often I have to make the choice between defensive and self heal. Is this defensive strong enough, probably not, but if I self heal I'm just delaying the inevitable.

[Unzd]

I'm enjoying raiding both m+ and raiding as Venthyr, working my way towards +15s timing 13s atm.
The output is so much fun and overall i can end up being almost a fourth dps while doing my job as a tank.

[NickFireman]

Maybe an interaction, too? Using so-many SoTR makes the next WoG free? Would fix PvP, too.

That mechanic already exists. It's Shining Light.

Shining Light
Requires Paladin (Protection)
Requires level 48
Every 5 Shields of the Righteous make your next Word of Glory free.

https://www.wowhead.com/spell=321136/shining-light

[Bloodyleech]

That mechanic already exists. It's Shining Light.

Shining Light
Requires Paladin (Protection)
Requires level 48
Every 5 Shields of the Righteous make your next Word of Glory free.

https://www.wowhead.com/spell=321136/shining-light

Yeah, but it's still worth it to use WoG without the free buff. My idea would be that the amount of WoG uses would be reduced

[tomten]

Most times it's even better to not use SotR, as you need a specific amount of incoming damage that this is even remotely as good as WoG. Pretty funny, if you ask me.
Ofc, using SotR to reduce bursty dmg is prefered. In higher keys you obviously take enough dmg so that SotR is better to keep up.

You are very wrong... Its literally the opposite... 99% of the time, if you press wog outside SL procs, you're doing it wrong.
You literally need to die in the next global to justify hitting it, thats how bad it is..... The exception would be pure magical dmg, unblockable etc.

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but prot paladin is by far the most OP tanking class in the game and I can see why every guide ranks prot paladin as the top choice for tanking in Shadowlands so far.

lel... Show me ONE guide that says paladin is top choice... I'll wait...
No one is putting paladin as top, wtf you smoking? We squishy as hell compared to the real tank meta. We are middle of the pack...

[Bloodyleech]

You are very wrong... Its literally the opposite... 99% of the time, if you press wog outside SL procs, you're doing it wrong.
You literally need to die in the next global to justify hitting it, thats how bad it is..... The exception would be pure magical dmg, unblockable etc.

I do not talk about high end content. It's a mathematical fact that WoG is the better decision if you take than "so much" damage while the shield is up.
I do not know the exact numbers these days, but it was something like 25k-ish with M0 gear.

Ofc you NEED the shield uptime if you do higher content, no one said anything different, as I already said in the post you quoted.

[Hellobolis]

usually if tanking isn't fun immediately after you ding it's because you don't have enough stats (haste) to make your rotation flow nicely. it's always a bit of an issue at the start of an expansion.

[gaymer77]

lel... Show me ONE guide that says paladin is top choice... I'll wait...
No one is putting paladin as top, wtf you smoking? We squishy as hell compared to the real tank meta. We are middle of the pack...

There's 2 showing they are within the top 2 tank specs....

[ZazuuPriest]

There's 2 showing they are within the top 2 tank specs....

LOL imagine quoting Noxxic and Icy veins

There are 4 (4) Paladins in the top 100 raider.io for M+

ask me how many DH there are... go ahead. so right there we can throw icy-veins out and noxxic right along with it.

Find me some Mythic guild that takes Prot Paladins and was competitive (as in has cleared it)

Paladins are good but youre really showing your ass on this one. they're too squishy to be God-Tier

Super LOL on I-V even mentioning Night Fae covenant ability as if any serious Prot Paladin is taking that.

[Lucetia]

but prot paladin is by far the most OP tanking class in the game and I can see why every guide ranks prot paladin as the top choice for tanking in Shadowlands so far.

I'm sorry, but you are completely off. Yes what you described works perfectly in outdoor content, but what you describe never happens in M+/Raids. You won't be melting things and your Divine Toll won't be as OP as you talk about. What makes it worse is that you are reliant on a 1 minute cooldown. Which means it won't always be up and when you get to bosses and stuff it's wet noodle time, even with the conduit due to the RNG'ness of it.

No guide I've read mentions Prot Paladin in the top. We are still middle of the pack. Prot paladins have decent damage, but terrible mitigation compared to other tanks. Any guide that is accurately ranking them will always list DH / Monk in the top.

There's 2 showing they are within the top 2 tank specs....

Everyone knows Noxxic has been extremely terrible for several expansions. Icy Veins isn't really that great either.

You can definitely tell Icy Veins is way off since they put Vengeance DH at the very bottom yet they are the most OP in any M+ dungeon period. Looking at both charts you can see a lot wrong with them if you actually play the game and experience the content not to mention all the rankings as well.

[Wysmark]

I dropped tanking when I couldnt raid no more. Tanking keystones is just too stressfull

[ZazuuPriest]

I do not talk about high end content. It's a mathematical fact that WoG is the better decision if you take than "so much" damage while the shield is up.
I do not know the exact numbers these days, but it was something like 25k-ish with M0 gear.

Ofc you NEED the shield uptime if you do higher content, no one said anything different, as I already said in the post you quoted.

except it does an assload of damage as well as opposed to just overhealing / causing the healer to overheal you for no reason. but yep you got it all figured out.

[gaymer77]

You can definitely tell Icy Veins is way off since they put Vengeance DH at the very bottom yet they are the most OP in any M+ dungeon period. Looking at both charts you can see a lot wrong with them if you actually play the game and experience the content not to mention all the rankings as well.

IV is referring to raiding on their tank ranking list. It talks about M+, Torghast, and other aspects of the game when you go into the class/spec page for each of the specs. The ranking page is strictly for raiding. Straight from IV's tank ranking page:

Last Updated: December 24 — There are no new updates to the tanking tier list this week, but I will include some insight into tanking choices for Mythic progression. For high-end Mythic progression, most guilds have chosen to bring tanks specifically that offer important raid buffs as opposed to picking the optimal tanks for actually tanking encounters. In other words, tank balance is really close right now — so close in fact that some guilds have chosen to bring Warriors, Demon Hunters, and Monks specifically because it allows them to not have to bring those melee DPS for the raid buffs. The takeaway from this is that tank balance is even closer than originally predicted, and you could absolutely play any tank at the moment for Mythic raiding.

November 20 updateemon Hunters are probably the strongest tank for damage output behind Protection Paladins, but at the moment that is where there strengths end. They are still a solid all-around choice and are absolutely viable, but there are better options for more jobs. However, if you need the 5% magic damage debuff, do not hesitate to bring a Vengeance Demon Hunter.

Demon Hunters have a strong all-around toolkit that combines decent damage mitigation with moderate self-healing. Specifically, Demon Hunters offer a very strong passive reduction against magic damage when combining Demonic Wards Icon Demonic Wards with Viscous Ink Icon Viscous Ink. Metamorphosis Icon Metamorphosis is still an incredibly powerful defensive cooldown, which along with Fiery Brand Icon Fiery Brand gives them decent options for dealing with high damage periods. Finally Demon Hunters are still one of the most mobile classes in the game, which is of course incredibly useful to have as a tank.

It is also worth mentioning that similar to Monks, Demon Hunters have a 5% magic buff that they bring to the raid. The main difference is that unlike the other Monk specializations, Havoc Demon Hunters are actually one of the more common DPS found in raids, making it likely most raids will have one anyways. Vengeance Demon Hunter is definitely much more attractive if your raid does not have a Demon Hunter.

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Super LOL on I-V even mentioning Night Fae covenant ability as if any serious Prot Paladin is taking that.

I'm going to assume when you say this you are referring to the protection paladin specific page under the "Best Covenants, Soulbinds, and Conduits" because that's the only place they talk about any class of any spec with any type of covenant ability. As you notice, it tells you about the covenant....ALL of them...and ALL SOULBINDS. It tells the perks and drawbacks of taking each of the covenants and each of the soulbinds so people can see for themselves what each of them do. But yes, there are protection paladins who take NF and even go with Dreamweaver just like there are Guardian druids who go with NF and Dreamweaver just like there are Brewmaster monks who go NF with Dreamweaver. All of them do it despite the fact that if Podtender gets triggered they literally can't do shit for 10 seconds AND they lose ALL threat during that time too and its a complete agro wipe. All IV did was explain what each of the covenants and soulbinds do for each of the classes and specs.

[ZazuuPriest]

IV is referring to raiding on their tank ranking list. It talks about M+, Torghast, and other aspects of the game when you go into the class/spec page for each of the specs. The ranking page is strictly for raiding. Straight from IV's tank ranking page:




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I'm going to assume when you say this you are referring to the protection paladin specific page under the "Best Covenants, Soulbinds, and Conduits" because that's the only place they talk about any class of any spec with any type of covenant ability. As you notice, it tells you about the covenant....ALL of them...and ALL SOULBINDS. It tells the perks and drawbacks of taking each of the covenants and each of the soulbinds so people can see for themselves what each of them do. But yes, there are protection paladins who take NF and even go with Dreamweaver just like there are Guardian druids who go with NF and Dreamweaver just like there are Brewmaster monks who go NF with Dreamweaver. All of them do it despite the fact that if Podtender gets triggered they literally can't do shit for 10 seconds AND they lose ALL threat during that time too and its a complete agro wipe. All IV did was explain what each of the covenants and soulbinds do for each of the classes and specs.

i dont know if you cant read the screenshot you just posted but the literal last sentence of the last paragraph mentions Night Faes Blessing of Seasons. The very infographic you used to try to make the argument that Prot was Super Mega OP. Its completely pointless to even mention BoS because like less than 1% of any paladin is taking it and if they are its because they wanted to be NF not because the ability is good for tanking. so why mention it when talking about tanking? it lends to the fact that I-V is pretty much full of shit

As to your other comment about I-V only talking about tanking raids... that doesn't even make any sense. I-V admits that paladins have vulnerability windows but then go on to say "but they do great damage and have some utility". Well wtf are we talking about here tanking or not?

Like i said show me 1 Mythic raiding guild that rolls with a prot paladin. As people start to outgear content sure Prot is ok but try not to sit here and look like you know what youre talking about when clearly youre quoting your information from suspect sources and completely ignoring actual real data that is easily accessable.

[Master Guns]

Paladin tanking is amazing tbh.

[Unzd]

As a prot paladin WHO have begik progressing mythic and pushing keys toward 15. I Can feel the pain. But honestly i find it fun to group lead and make use of my groups / raids abilities to kite when needed