Outlaw Reroll Logic : advanced strategy?

[Johnnylaw]

Hello,

I post here to get some insight about Roll the bones Reroll logic. Recently, this reroll changed : we need to keep a single True Bearing or broadside, or 2+ buffs, otherwise we reroll. However, this logic seems to apply at the beginning and middle of a fight : when a boss will die soon (in a minute or 1mn30), is true bearing really worth it as the boss will probably die before our AR cd is up again.

Are we supposed to reroll a single true bearing when a fight is about to end in a relatively short period of time? Guides only mentions this reroll logic in an abrupt manner, with no further.. advanced stratedies pertaining to fight duration or other criterias.

Any outlaw for advice? Should we stick to this rigid reroll logic or should we adapt? if yes how so.

Maybe my question betrays a misunderstanding on how those dices work.

Thanks for any answer given.

[Sunderella]

Well I would say that if the boss is about to die and you wont get to use another AR, I would reroll since any other buff would seem to me like a dps increase or at least funnier that true bearing

[Aureli]

Last night on 4 mins fight i used 5 AR. 1 min and 30 sec is still a lot of time. Much more then you need to refresh your AR

[Biomega]

Don't you also reduce the CD on Blade Rush?

It's probably the kind of optimization that works in theory, but in practice is so error-prone you are probably better off following the usual logic to get the best result most of the time.

[SidFwuff]

Hello,

I post here to get some insight about Roll the bones Reroll logic.

Thanks for posting this- I've been parsing really low myself and trying to improve. There's a lot of theory crafting with Roll The Bones so a discussion would likely help me too.

Recently, this reroll changed : we need to keep a single True Bearing or broadside, or 2+ buffs, otherwise we reroll. However, this logic seems to apply at the beginning and middle of a fight : when a boss will die soon (in a minute or 1mn30), is true bearing really worth it as the boss will probably die before our AR cd is up again.

From what I've read/watched on YouTube, yes. Others are free to correct me if I'm wrong (and I probably am) but first you should also reroll if you get Grand Melee + Buried Treasure.

Second, True Bearing and Broadside aren't only for Adrenaline Rush- they also reduce the CD on just about everything- most importantly, Between the Eyes. Between True Bearing and Broadside (with Restless Blades) you can drop the CD of Between the Eyes down to below 20 seconds... giving you a few extra Between the Eye crits and buffs within 1.5 minutes.

Are we supposed to reroll a single true bearing when a fight is about to end in a relatively short period of time? Guides only mentions this reroll logic in an abrupt manner, with no further.. advanced stratedies pertaining to fight duration or other criterias.

No. Another thing to keep in mind is the recommended conduit "Count the odds" (https://www.wowdb.com/spells/341546-count-the-odds) which gives you extra Roll the Bones buffs from Dispatch and Ambush. Besides Between the Eyes and Adrenaline Rush, True Bearing and Broadside also help bring Vanish off cooldown, which gives you an Ambush that will likely give you another buff even if the conduit is only 184 iLvl.

Those buffs are shorter duration though, so they can either delay the reroll of non True Bearing/Broadside or Grand Melee + Buried Treasure rolls.

Any outlaw for advice? Should we stick to this rigid reroll logic or should we adapt? if yes how so.

Maybe my question betrays a misunderstanding on how those dices work.

Thanks for any answer given.

Again, I'm trying to fix my own Outlaw DPS so take this with a grain of salt but my understanding so far is that because Outlaw is all about getting our CDs back up as fast as possible and that Broadside/True Bearing both help to do that, you want to try and keep at least one of them up at all times.

[Coldkil]

Slightly off topic, this is exactly the reason why i don't like RtB. I don't think there's a way to "fix" it. Either the various buffs get balanced enough it becomes a "fire on CD" button or you're going to end using an addon that just tells you when to reroll, because that's an already solved problem. Actually, since i'm planning to reroll outlaw since i was both suprised i kinda like it and the fact build/stats/leggos are the same through all content, i'm just gonna write down a small addon to deal with all this shit.

Back on topic and also related to the addon (cause i need to obviously get the logic right). You want to wait on RtB when:
- it's a single buff but NOT Broadside or True Bearing
- it's 2 buffs but not Grand Melee+Buried Treasure
- it's 3+ buffs
Otherwise, you use it as soon as it's available.

First, correct me if the above is wrong. Second, if i use the Against the odds conduit, i'll be more often in the 2+ category so same shit applies, right? I'll wait the short 5 second buff to expire then reroll accordingly.

I find bloated and useless to have 5 different trackers for a single ability, not that Outlaw hasn't enough already. So i'm just gonna make it a small text string with the information i need like "useless buffs, rtb in..." or " wait for X buff to expire" or "rtb now". Really, deep down it's just what Roll the Bones is, a convoluted if-then-else situation.

[Johnnylaw]

Yo all and thx a lot for the insight. Well, i actually find the previous reroll logic a LOT smoother to run as u had 50/50 percent chance to have good/decent rolls (we could keep single skull and cross/ruthless/broadside or 2+). It now feels clunky like some time ago when u had to reroll all the time.

Looks like i'm going to go for a less rng class.

[Coldkil]

Yo all and thx a lot for the insight. Well, i actually find the previous reroll logic a LOT smoother to run as u had 50/50 percent chance to have good/decent rolls (we could keep single skull and cross/ruthless/broadside or 2+). It now feels clunky like some time ago when u had to reroll all the time.

Looks like i'm going to go for a less rng class.

It's actually not tha RNG. Especially adding the conduit, even if you get a shitty single buff you can get a proc and find yourself in the 2+ step, which is basically "dont reroll until its GM+BT".

Outlaw has a way higher APM. It's easy to go over 60apm which is basically more that you can do because gcd doesnt allow for more.

EDIT: i managed to do the addon. If anyone is interested i can upload it somewhere and you can try it.

It should be working as expected, but i may have done something not the right way and more eyes would be useful. Also, there's surely room to improve it so any feedback would be greatly appreciated.

[SidFwuff]

Back on topic and also related to the addon (cause i need to obviously get the logic right). You want to wait on RtB when:
- it's a single buff but NOT Broadside or True Bearing
- it's 2 buffs but not Grand Melee+Buried Treasure
- it's 3+ buffs
Otherwise, you use it as soon as it's available.

I think you have the first one backwards. You don't wait on RtB if you only have a single buff unless it's either Broadside or True Bearing. I've seen some suggestions to also wait if you have a single buff and it's Ruthless Precision if Between the Eyes is coming off cooldown soon- then reroll right after you use Between the Eyes.

Otherwise it looks good.

Second, if i use the Against the odds conduit, i'll be more often in the 2+ category so same shit applies, right? I'll wait the short 5 second buff to expire then reroll accordingly.

Count the Odds at iLvl 200 gives something like ~20% chance to Dispatch and ~60% chance to Ambush to give you a RtB buff you don't already have, but it's only for 5 seconds; It's the same logic though, I think, because RtB will overwrite the buffs from the conduit.

You also might be thinking of Sleight of Hand conduit which gives you a ~15% chance at iLvl 200 to gain extra matches when you use RtB. I don't know if the extra 15% chance at an extra buff makes it worthwhile to reroll either True Bearing or Broadside.

I find bloated and useless to have 5 different trackers for a single ability, not that Outlaw hasn't enough already. So i'm just gonna make it a small text string with the information i need like "useless buffs, rtb in..." or " wait for X buff to expire" or "rtb now". Really, deep down it's just what Roll the Bones is, a convoluted if-then-else situation.

Well I think it's because some of the buffs change up your rotation- most notably Broadside. Opportunity procs (with Quick Shot talent) go from generating 2 combo points to 3 combo points- meaning that when you have Broadside you'll want to delay that if you're at 3 combo points (4 with Deeper Stratagem talent). I'm pretty sure you want to Dispatch at 4 combo points (5 with Deeper Stratagem). I think you still Sinister Strike/Ambush up to max combo points for Between the Eyes though.

I went Night Fae, but I bet if you aren't tracking if you have Broadside or not will play hell with the Kyrian ability.

Ruthless Precision would be handy to track too though, as I'm pretty sure you'll want to Between the Eyes at max combo points regardless if you have Broadside up or not.

And while Grand Melee isn't particularly useful, I have had fights where my Slice and Dice duration was up to above 2 minutes thanks to Grand Melee. You probably don't want to waste the combo points to refresh Slice and Dice with Grand Melee up, because using them on a Dispatch will extend Slice and Dice for free.

That all said, the values of the buffs and whether you should reroll or not probably looks something like:

"True Bearing" and "Broadside" are worth 3 points each
"Ruthless Precision" and "Skull and Crossbones" are worth 2 points each
"Grand Melee" and "Buried Treasure" are worth 1 point each

If your cumulative buffs are worth 2 points or less then you Roll the Bones.

[Coldkil]

-snip-

Yep, typo in the first line. The conduit actually it's still being dealt with - because either you fall into 2+ which you want to keep (until it's GM+BT) or 3+ which you want to keep at all times.

It's just an additional 5 second window. You definitely don't want to overwrite a conduit proc with RtB - which my addon actually manages automatically. But i need to run it more and see if it has some unwanted behaviour.

[kaelix1]

I love outlaw, the dmg you can do if you get a godmode aka full buff is insane BUT at the same time if you keep getting bad buffs it's depressing,I'm using a weakaura that show me the buff i get and if they are good and its damn depressing when you get bad roll 3/4 times in a row, when you get all of them, its holy shit)

[Sunderella]

EDIT: i managed to do the addon. If anyone is interested i can upload it somewhere and you can try it.

'

I wouldn't mind to have a look at it if you post it somewhere and share a link

[Coldkil]

I wouldn't mind to have a look at it if you post it somewhere and share a link

I'll do that tonight. Probably on WoWInterface since i have still my old account there.

[bondgirl]

I'll do that tonight. Probably on WoWInterface since i have still my old account there.

Would really like to get / test it aswell. Would appreciate a link. Thanks in advance

[Coldkil]

Ok, here's the addon.

https://www.wowinterface.com/downloa...RtBHelper.html

Called it "helper" because "f*** this shit" wouldn't have been cool. It's really barebones, explanations in the addon description. May not be active right now and still in "pending" state so give it a little time.

Waiting for feedback - logic should be fine from what i have seen, but more eyes are always useful.

[Sunderella]

Ok, here's the addon.

https://www.wowinterface.com/downloa...RtBHelper.html

Called it "helper" because "f*** this shit" wouldn't have been cool. It's really barebones, explanations in the addon description. May not be active right now and still in "pending" state so give it a little time.

Waiting for feedback - logic should be fine from what i have seen, but more eyes are always useful.

great! I will have a look at it later today. thx for sharing