Solution for M+ leavers....

[Temp name]

their punishment would be loss of their precious io score

or blizzard add a data point that shows how many keys that player has abandoned ( this number wont include keys that were intentionally lowered an example of this i was trying to help a friend get his 10 achievement so he could upgrade his gear but all i had was a 15 of the dungeon he needed, instead of trying to force our way through the 15 we drop it to a 12 which is more manageable it wont count as 3 abandoned keys

And then they'll just afk instead of leave the key. Congratz, you've solved nothing.
Or if afkers are punished, they'll run around in the key but not participate. See post #911

This has been addressed. They kick you. If you keep getting kicked, the problem isn't others, it's you. Then you get a penalty. This has been deployed to CS:GO. Each competitive CS:GO match can be considered a single M+ run. The sample size in that game is significantly bigger than that of WoW. Guess what... It works. In my experience (and I am talking about my own bans), if you keep getting kicked, the problem is you.

That's being said, it's extremely hard to come up with a good formula that addresses this problem. I admit that.

I'm not entirely sure how CS:GO's system works, but is there a system that kicks people who run around in circles and don't participate? Or who run into the enemy to immediately get killed ?

Or if it's a manual kick system, what's to stop people from abusing it? Because in WoW the power to kick in "organized" groups like m+ is in the hand of one guy, who can start a key and immediately kick everyone. As long as he has a key for a dungeon he can keep doing it to be a dick.

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Solution is easy. First leave = 1 day ban from M+. Second leave = 1 week ban from WoW. Third leave = 1 month ban from all Blizzard games. Fourth leave = ban all battle.net accounts and blacklist the person.

If 4 people vote at once, then it equals to leave (to prevent AFKers). Banned person can put a ticket to appeal the vote. Moderator will review it and either ban all who voted or extend ban to the next level it that ban was warranted.

Also make it an option for all people to vote to stop M+ run. If everyone agrees, it's stopped and everyone can leave.

It'll allow to get rid of most leaves. A lot of players will start running M+, WoW player base numbers will rocket to the moon, WoW will be the most profitable game again. But Blizzard did not get proper cohones to execute that strategy. Too bad. The solution is really on the surface.

So.. You punish people who have a legitimate reason to leave.. Okay.

[Bloodyleech]

I said it so many times and will have to do it so many more times, but there is no way you can go against leavers without hurting those that actually did nothing wrong.
Anti-leave? Go afk, or autoshot, or pull stuff
Vote-Kick? Will be abused, like in EVERY game that uses it.

Tell me more, I'll instantly tell you the dark side of your solution.

[Temp name]

it's manually initiated kick vote in cs:go and people vote after it's initiated... people constantly get kicked for telling russian or turkish players to speak english lol... it would be the same as in lfg... people just press yes without even checking why...

I think I can count on a single hand the number of times a kick hasn't gone through in LFG.. It'd be the same in m+ if it had that kind of kicking system.

[Kuntantee]

I'm not entirely sure how CS:GO's system works, but is there a system that kicks people who run around in circles and don't participate? Or who run into the enemy to immediately get killed ?

CS:GO system is not that transparent but we mostly know how it works.

but is there a system that kicks people who run around in circles and don't participate?

There is no automated kick unless you literally go AFK. You need 4 votes to kick. There is a weak spot, if a premade of two or more is in your party, and they decide not to kick their AFK friend, they are staying in. However, that's an extreme rarity.

Or who run into the enemy to immediately get killed ?

That is not a reason to get a kick? Poor gaming skills is not a valid reason for punishment. Toxic behavior is but that's just me.

[thunderdragon2]

And then they'll just afk instead of leave the key. Congratz, you've solved nothing.
Or if afkers are punished, they'll run around in the key but not participate. See post #911


I'm not entirely sure how CS:GO's system works, but is there a system that kicks people who run around in circles and don't participate? Or who run into the enemy to immediately get killed ?

Or if it's a manual kick system, what's to stop people from abusing it? Because in WoW the power to kick in "organized" groups like m+ is in the hand of one guy, who can start a key and immediately kick everyone. As long as he has a key for a dungeon he can keep doing it to be a dick.

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So.. You punish people who have a legitimate reason to leave.. Okay.

ok then what you you suggest should happen as wall we have heard form you is no, no not going to work without a solution, with blizzard doing their own m+ score now would be the time to implement some sort of leaver deterrent

[Kuntantee]

I'm not familiar with the CSGO system but I don't think a system that automatches people and backfills can be compared to a complex system like M+ where groups are premade and don't backfill. The variables and impact of various functions is too different, the cost:benefit is too different, and you're talking about games where the entire game starts and ends in each match and the dynamic is much more simple.

And to be very clear, I'm not against punishing leavers and I'm not saying it's impossible, I'm saying an automated system to do so would do more harm than good. An automated system can't tell between someone who left because they thought it would be hilarious to kill someone's key and someone who left because the mage has been fucking around doing nothing most of the run. An automated system can't tell the difference between someone who left because they didn't like the route the tank is using, and someone who left because the tank was yelling racial slurs at them. An automated system can't tell if someone had a dozen unfinished keys because they are a chronic leaver, or if they have a dozen unfinished runs because they happen to PuG a ton and encounter leavers much more frequently than others.

I think by far the most effective way to action leavers is to make it reportable so runs can be manually reviewed and addressed that way. If they want to automate escalation for manual review based on frequency or number reports or something, fine, but at the end of the day, I think in a system as complex as m+ is there absolutely needs to be an actual human reviewing things. Blizzard won't do this, so the next best thing I think is what we're dealing with now: occasionally having some time wasted because every now and then someone drops group for whatever reason.

CS:GO competitives are like M+ it's lock and go. It's a bit more forgiving, as if someone leaves, you get a bot and once you die during a round, you can then control the bot (if it's alive). It's a mechanical difference between a shooter and an mmorpg but fundamentally, a CS:GO competitive match and a M+ run are the same; you rely heavily on other 4.

CS:GO punishment system is not automated. It's driven by community with checks in place to make sure that people do not abuse the tools in their disposal. You kick too many people; you get a ban. You get kicked too many times; you get a ban. You leave a game? You get a ban. You do too much friendly fire? You get a ban. You do friendly fire at the start of a round (ragers often do this)? You get an insta ban. You are reported too many times? You get a ban. You repeat offenses? Your ban increases, resets every few weeks or so. It's harsh and it works. You can get a week of competitive ban in a single day if you are tilted/raging.

Blizzard will not manually review toxicity reports, it's simply not feasible. What they can do instead is implement something similar to CS:GO Overwatch where community reviews cheater/griefing reports. A single case is given to several overwatchers. They then make a decision. Overwatch works like a charm.

[Alroxas]

Tell me more, I'll instantly tell you the dark side of your solution.

Only do M+ with players where you can exert accountability via either a community group, discord group, or within a guild?

[Tziva]

There is no automated kick unless you literally go AFK. You need 4 votes to kick. There is a weak spot, if a premade of two or more is in your party, and they decide not to kick their AFK friend, they are staying in. However, that's an extreme rarity.

I mean, is it an extreme rarity?

I would say maybe around half of the groups I join nowadays have at least two people from the same guild so I assume are queueing together. I'd also say about 70% of the time I PuG nowadays I have at least one friend with me.

That's just my anecdotal experience but I wouldn't be surprised if a very significant portion of groups were not full PuGs.

CS:GO punishment system is not automated.

As I said, my problem is with an automated system.

Blizzard will not manually review toxicity reports, it's simply not feasible. What they can do instead is implement something similar to CS:GO Overwatch where community reviews cheater/griefing reports. A single case is given to several overwatchers. They then make a decision. Overwatch works like a charm.

I know they wont, but my stance is still that if they are going to spend resources on a system to deal with leavers, it should be to allocate those resources to something that includes review by humans rather than building an automatic system.

[Kuntantee]

https://afkgaming.com/articles/csgo/...nocent-players

https://www.esports.com/en/csgo-hack...-factor-116963



lol ok...

There is a single exploit in a system that otherwise has been working rather well for almost a decade and I am going to go a head and claim the system is shit.

Got it. I can tell you scary vulnerabilities from tech world, from projects that has billions of dollars of investment. Would you claim that those projects are not working? Read about spectre.

[Bloodyleech]

Only do M+ with players where you can exert accountability via either a community group, discord group, or within a guild?

Well, the crying is mainly around pugs, so I meant things that make pugs "less toxic"/"easier"/whatever those people try to change.

Building a premade/playing with guild is obviously in all parts of all games the thing that's the only "true" solution. Buuuut..

Imo premades aren't always working. People could stop playing, not wanting to do stuff for whatever reason, RL.. - either you fill with pugs (main reason for this and other threads) or you don't do m+.

[Kuntantee]

I mean, is it an extreme rarity?

I would say maybe around half of the groups I join nowadays have at least two people from the same guild so I assume are queueing together. I'd also say about 70% of the time I PuG nowadays I have at least one friend with me.

That's just my anecdotal experience but I wouldn't be surprised if a very significant portion of groups were not full PuGs.

There is only one time where I have seen two pre-made that we invited from a near-by lobby went to go AFK while exploiting some keybinding script in CS:GO. I am not sure why they did this, probably to derank but they're getting a ban that's for sure. The problem is they probably de-rank in a single day, and when their case goes to Overwatch, they got a ban for griefing but then that's not a VAC ban, so probably 30 min or so (if their offense counter is reset).

Now, I either go full 5-man premade, or solo queue in match making. I played CS:GO actively for like at least 2 years, and somewhat actively for another 2 years. So that's up to early 2020. During that time, I have played many many many times in solo queue. I got banned too, but never ones it was a false positive, as far as I remember. You occasionally get kicked, but as I said, that does not immediately result in a ban and while this is a speculation, there are also checks in place that you get your elo if the match that you just got kicked on the last round before winning (happened to me). I ranked up after that match. So, Valve's system is not so transparent, but it's well-thought and imo works. Then again, it's Valve. They have this thing called "competency".

[erifwodahs]

You are a toxic player that people are complaining about. The community would teach you some manners, if it wasn't for cross-realm.

lol, so people who are literally being toxic in the dungeon are victims now because a guy who leaves because of their toxic behaviour is hurting them?

[Bloodyleech]

lol, so people who are literally being toxic in the dungeon are victims now because a guy who leaves because of their toxic behaviour is hurting them?

Well, you know - if you are in a run with someone that is obviously getting boosted, or raging the hell out of nothing, you are supposed to boost him further, or ignore the toxicity, right?.. Right?

[erifwodahs]

Well, you know - if you are in a run with someone that is obviously getting boosted, or raging the hell out of nothing, you are supposed to boost him further, or ignore the toxicity, right?.. Right?

Some people really think like that.
There are toxic people who leave - most of them die because of their fuck ups and then call someone trash and leave, but leaving is not toxic on it's own.
But if I get shit on or blamed for something I did not do - I'm out.

[HansOlo]

Very simple solution:
Don't PuG. That got nothing to do with being casaul or "semi hardcore" - whatever that means. There is more than enough people like yourself with same interests.

[Lifetapper]

The problem is that you run a much higher risk when it is a pug joining your key. I just join other people's keys when my friends are not available. I have rarely had anyone leave when I do this. Whereas, if I let a pug join my key, it happens almost every single time.

[Minikin]

they should have learned the mechanics in normal mythic dungeons... not in +14... i still encounter some people in 18 and 19s that have no clue how the dungeon works...

i feel you on this.

i did a pf+14 last week. honestly there were signs from the start but just didnt pay attention. healer kept dancing out of group on 2nd last boss. just jumping around. broke him out of web 5 times.

i can understand learning even on a +5, cuz honestly sometimes you can gather gear that bypasses 1 thru 4. BUT a 14??? and this late in the season? like intentionally trying to be ignorant then.

then did a SoA +14 this week. tank was bad but stuck it out. then at 2nd last boss you know how you jump over the ledge and then LoS pull? Yea instead of that went and pulled those horrible ass elites in the middle with the squad leader and everything else under the sun. we POLITELY (100% no rude comment) explain why thats no bueno and how the other mobs get us what we need. Dude just ups and leaves.

Truly, if someone makes a website to name and shame idiots like this so I dont have to waste my time id happily fund it.

[Temp name]

ok then what you you suggest should happen as wall we have heard form you is no, no not going to work without a solution, with blizzard doing their own m+ score now would be the time to implement some sort of leaver deterrent

The deterrent is that they don't get the score. You literally cannot make a system that is immune to malicious actors, so Blizzard has decided that they won't bother trying, and just act on reports

CS:GO system is not that transparent but we mostly know how it works.


There is no automated kick unless you literally go AFK. You need 4 votes to kick. There is a weak spot, if a premade of two or more is in your party, and they decide not to kick their AFK friend, they are staying in. However, that's an extreme rarity.

Just like someone leaving your key is a rarity. If you find it isn't a rarity, better screen the people joining your keys

That is not a reason to get a kick? Poor gaming skills is not a valid reason for punishment. Toxic behavior is but that's just me.

Okay, so there's nothing to stop people from being malicious and ruining the game for others, just like in WoW. Cool.

[erifwodahs]

best reason to get shit on... tank dies on mistcaller... blames me...

ok... i could have used guardian spirit if i knew patty cake was going to hit you... but how the fuck am i supposed to know you're not going to interrupt the patty cake?

Yup. Then I would explain tank that he died because of his fuck up and if he still blamed me I would just tell him to get good, if he still continued I would just leave. Kind of 3 step thing. Ofc. insults are not tolerated at all does not matter whos key it is.

[Aphrel]

And then a sudden surge of boosting sells start up a thousand fold. Think about it: Run a successful group all the way to the last boss, kick 1 person, sell last spot for a quick and easy +20 key done (plus you get dungeon teleport).

Sounds like something that should be bannable.

But an easy fix would be no achievs or score points awarded if a person has left the group.
Another would be the fact that players dont get ported out of dungs. So if a group is griefing a player by kicking him be4 last boss, he can just stay inside and hold the dung hostage.

No solution is perfect but i think alot of solutions would be better than the current one.