Solution for M+ leavers....

[Rageonit]

because those people have scores that means they've cleared 15s and beyond... thanks to people carrying their asses instead of leaving... this was less of a problem earlier in the season because those people weren't at that score then... and not everyone is on warcraftlogs... i avoid people who i can see parsing grey on warcraftlogs...

I get that some people are boosted, but what you're trying to tell me is that you're getting groups full of them, all the time. Because only then leaving a really, really bad group would have an effect on your leaver %.
Who wouldn't leave a group like this? Every decent player would - which wouldn't translate into a higher leaver %. Your leaver % would only be higher if you were statistically leaving many more groups than everybody else. Take more time forming your group, don't group with gray logs/no logs and you should have decent groups, at least most of the time! Or else you're doing something very, very wrong.

[Crimson Spears]

It boggles my mind how, in the era of raider.io, warcraft logs and what not, you are still able to form groups like that. I agree that people who don't understand the importance of interrupts have no place in 15s, but it's hard to believe you somehow came across 4 players who supposedly were boosted to a decent rio score (?). People who never timed a +7? Sounds like a gross exaggeration. Every now and then you do get into a bad group, but a group like this? And you're trying to tell me it happens on a daily basis? Because only then leaving a group like this would have any visible effect on your leaver %.

You have to be really picky... its easy to carry dps and to a lesser extent a healer through at 15 (a healer only really need to know how to burst through pride on easy heal weeks).

I found it easier to do a weekly 16-17 rather then a 14-15 that is were most of the hanger ons live. To be frank at this point I only am really interested in people who are 1500 io or have at least six mythic raid bosses killed.

[Crimson Spears]

I get that some people are boosted, but what you're trying to tell me is that you're getting groups full of them, all the time. Because only then leaving a really, really bad group would have an effect on your leaver %.
Who wouldn't leave a group like this? Every decent player would - which wouldn't translate into a higher leaver %. Your leaver % would only be higher if you were statistically leaving many more groups than everybody else. Take more time forming your group, don't group with gray logs/no logs and you should have decent groups, at least most of the time! Or else you're doing something very, very wrong.

I am not overly interested in letting people have power over me... its a tough sell.

I rather bail on a nightmare run then drag someone through a free carry to their weekly cache.

[Alroxas]

No reason to overthink it. If your character leaves the instance, for any reason at all - be it a DC - you are flagged as a leaver.

Stop. That's bad right there because now instead of "leaving", players will find some other way to force someone else to leave. This promotes bad behavior

EDIT: Also, that's why you need a majority vote system to be able to end the run prematurely with no consequences.

Vote systems are flawed. Just look at LFR vote kicks as an example. It's far to easy to find XYZ excuse to vote kick someone (it doesn't even have to be a real reason) as most people click yes and move on.

At the very least, you need a negative factor to prevent excessive use of vote kicks. Something like vote kicking downgrades the key automatically at which point, what was the point of the system since that's the default anyway.

[Rageonit]

i never said i get them all the time...

What's the problem then? Everybody leaves a REALLY bad run from time to time, and it won't translate into a high leaver %. We're talking here about players who leave on first wipe (and in groups that actually DO interrupt, that can happen too).
And about that guy being super unlucky... Yeah, well, nobody is going to base design decisions on a legend of a guy who never got a nice group. Even if that legend is true.

[Alroxas]

Please, if you encounter a problem, try to give it a second thought to find a solution. It's not as hard as you might think.

No, that's not our role to debug your solution. Our role is to find the problems with your solution because technically the best solution already exists.

[Bloodyleech]

And about that guy being super unlucky... Yeah, well, nobody is going to base design decisions on a legend of a guy who never got a nice group. Even if that legend is true.

Sadly, this is true. It's really sad to be honest.
He's losing more and more interest in the game since bfa. Imagine getting nothing "good" out of any weekly chest for multiple years. Getting items for slots you already have the best item for. Exactly this happens every week. I guess he got a couple good items in his weekly in legion and since then no good (good in the sense of BiS stats/trinkets/weapons at all) weekly loot.
You do not have to believe this, but I see it week after week.

[Crimson Spears]

would definitely not have done that if it wasn't my friends... but they at least acknowledged they were being carried unlike pugs lol...

I feel you.. I had a pally healer be unable to heal more then 4 stacks of bursting at a time. We had to do the run painfully slow only for him to rage quit because a hunter he couldn't keep up from dot damage asked for a rez. Managed to burst down the last boss with a dps off healing and thankfully he didn't get another key done but ive sworn off anything under a 16 from that.

[Rageonit]

No, that's not our role to debug your solution. Our role is to find the problems with your solution because technically the best solution already exists.

You mistook my post for something it isn't. I'm not a Blizzard developer and I'm not creating solutions - I just shared my suggestion, because that's all it is. But if you prefer to nit-pick it in bad faith instead of having a fruitful conversation about the crux of the problem, be my guest (but don't expect me to take part in it, because I'm not interested).

[Alroxas]

the crux of the problem, be my guest (but don't expect me to take part in it, because I'm not interested).

The crux of the problem is simple: People leave M+ because it's a social problem not a game systems problem. Group finder (much like LFD, LFR) eliminates accountability for one's actions. That's why the default solution is to run M+ with players where an existing social construct holds people accountable. AKA you run M+ with people you know such as friends or guildmates. Because if they screw up or exhibit bad behavior you can hold them accountable (from not playing with them to gkicking them).


To design a game system to fix a social issue, is only going to cause more problems than the solution would fix because you can't mandate players to act in certain ways. At best you can incentivize good behavior but punishing bad behavior just shifts how the player base reacts to the game system (usually by cheating it).

So if we define bad behavior as leaving a key mid-run and you design any system that punishes the person who leaves. All you get is that players who want to leave will then "force" someone else to leave "first" so they cheat the system - being able to leave without punishment because they aren't the "first" to leave. This has already been brought up by myself (and others) - the negative behavior generated outweighs this system design.

But what about a voting system? Also problematic for various reasons from a group of premade (of 3 or 4) trolling players to ignorant players. We've all seen how easy it is to vote kick someone out of LFR (as I said, it doesn't even have to be a legitimate reason). Imagine now a vote kick on a Holy Paladin because they didn't dispel curses that a boss put on the players or a Resto druid who can't remove diseases from last boss in Plaguefall (For those that don't know - Holy Paladins can only remove Disease, Poison, Magic Debuffs while Resto Druids can only remove Curses, Poison, Magic Debuffs). Or how about a kick on XYZ class because you're not Meta or doing MDI level strats on a lower than +10 key? You know this will happen if you put in a vote kick mechanism in M+ without a negative consequence to the voting majority.

And let's not get started on the replacement "solutions" offered by others, that solution is too ripe for abuse. Oh let's have this great group that is easily going to time this M+ only to replace the last guy with one of their "carries" at the last boss because we're able to replacement people who "leave" or get voted out of the group.

[Crimson Spears]

The crux of the problem is simple: People leave M+ because it's a social problem not a game systems problem. Group finder (much like LFD, LFR) eliminates accountability for one's actions. That's why the default solution is to run M+ with players where an existing social construct holds people accountable. AKA you run M+ with people you know such as friends or guildmates. Because if they screw up or exhibit bad behavior you can hold them accountable (from not playing with them to gkicking them).


To design a game system to fix a social issue, is only going to cause more problems than the solution would fix because you can't mandate players to act in certain ways. At best you can incentivize good behavior but punishing bad behavior just shifts how the player base reacts to the game system (usually by cheating it).

So if we define bad behavior as leaving a key mid-run and you design any system that punishes the person who leaves. All you get is that players who want to leave will then "force" someone else to leave "first" so they cheat the system - being able to leave without punishment because they aren't the "first" to leave. This has already been brought up by myself (and others) - the negative behavior generated outweighs this system design.

But what about a voting system? Also problematic for various reasons from a group of premade (of 3 or 4) trolling players to ignorant players. We've all seen how easy it is to vote kick someone out of LFR (as I said, it doesn't even have to be a legitimate reason). Imagine now a vote kick on a Holy Paladin because they didn't dispel curses that a boss put on the players or a Resto druid who can't remove diseases from last boss in Plaguefall (For those that don't know - Holy Paladins can only remove Disease, Poison, Magic Debuffs while Resto Druids can only remove Curses, Poison, Magic Debuffs). Or how about a kick on XYZ class because you're not Meta or doing MDI level strats on a lower than +10 key? You know this will happen if you put in a vote kick mechanism in M+ without a negative consequence to the voting majority.

And let's not get started on the replacement "solutions" offered by others, that solution is too ripe for abuse. Oh let's have this great group that is easily going to time this M+ only to replace the last guy with one of their "carries" at the last boss because we're able to replacement people who "leave" or get voted out of the group.

I've played games were people could hold me accountable and hostage for their mistakes. League of legends comes to mind. I can tell you now having a 0/14/1 player scream at you he is reporting you for asking for a FF in a thirty minute game that was lost twenty minutes ago hasn't endeared me to the idea. Adding to that that simply leaving the game results in immediate punishment isn't charming either.

The brutal truth of this topic is people rarely leave successful runs and nearly all abandoned runs should be abandoned. Some people just can't accept that.

[kamuimac]

The crux of the problem is simple: People leave M+ because it's a social problem not a game systems problem. Group finder (much like LFD, LFR) eliminates accountability for one's actions. That's why the default solution is to run M+ with players where an existing social construct holds people accountable. AKA you run M+ with people you know such as friends or guildmates. Because if they screw up or exhibit bad behavior you can hold them accountable (from not playing with them to gkicking them).


To design a game system to fix a social issue, is only going to cause more problems than the solution would fix because you can't mandate players to act in certain ways. At best you can incentivize good behavior but punishing bad behavior just shifts how the player base reacts to the game system (usually by cheating it).

So if we define bad behavior as leaving a key mid-run and you design any system that punishes the person who leaves. All you get is that players who want to leave will then "force" someone else to leave "first" so they cheat the system - being able to leave without punishment because they aren't the "first" to leave. This has already been brought up by myself (and others) - the negative behavior generated outweighs this system design.

But what about a voting system? Also problematic for various reasons from a group of premade (of 3 or 4) trolling players to ignorant players. We've all seen how easy it is to vote kick someone out of LFR (as I said, it doesn't even have to be a legitimate reason). Imagine now a vote kick on a Holy Paladin because they didn't dispel curses that a boss put on the players or a Resto druid who can't remove diseases from last boss in Plaguefall (For those that don't know - Holy Paladins can only remove Disease, Poison, Magic Debuffs while Resto Druids can only remove Curses, Poison, Magic Debuffs). Or how about a kick on XYZ class because you're not Meta or doing MDI level strats on a lower than +10 key? You know this will happen if you put in a vote kick mechanism in M+ without a negative consequence to the voting majority.

And let's not get started on the replacement "solutions" offered by others, that solution is too ripe for abuse. Oh let's have this great group that is easily going to time this M+ only to replace the last guy with one of their "carries" at the last boss because we're able to replacement people who "leave" or get voted out of the group.

what would more likely happen is that such player instead leaving key would leave the guild and look for better one - instead wasting his time in bad guild.

the irony if person "left behind" would be you and people like you .

dont get me wrong - im super casual scrub . but still im not gonna play with people who are much worse then me - you knwo why ? because my time is way to valuable for me to spend it on fake internet friends.

does it suck for person who had his key depleted ? sure it must suck - but thats the faultof game that it even allows such thing like depletion of keys . not of people who left because group idnt meet their standards

[Necromantic]

does it suck for person who had his key depleted ? sure it must suck - but thats the faultof game that it even allows such thing like depletion of keys . not of people who left because group idnt meet their standards

This.

If the game allows something to happen, rest assure that people are going to take advantage of it.

[kamuimac]

I have to agree. I enjoy leveling alts on different servers a fresh start each time so to speak and people really overestimate themselves. It can take an hour to fill a +12 but a +14-15 will be flooded by people how never timed a +7...

A lot of people have no idea how to play the game and to be honest I don't blame them the game doesn't really tell you anything about how you should play it kind of just hopes you teach yourself.

a) thats bs since 12s are filled almost instantly - so many +/- 210 itlv alts are around that would never get into +14 due to amount of 220 itlv doing them for GV so they aim at +12 .
b)most of people "who didnt time 7 " and que for 14 are alts of people who just want 1 dungeon a week for 226 piece - stop pretending like random 200 itlv joes are quing for 14s - because that lie.

[javierdsv]

I mean, the solution is obviously just to punish HARD both tanks and healers only. They will anyway find another group instantly. And since we still want them to be available, these punishments can be based on gear or a combination of Gold/Reputation/ExpansionPower(anima, soul ash, etc). There will still be leavers but they will think twice before leaving,.

[Bloodyleech]

a) thats bs since 12s are filled almost instantly - so many +/- 210 itlv alts are around that would never get into +14 due to amount of 220 itlv doing them for GV so they aim at +12 .
b)most of people "who didnt time 7 " and que for 14 are alts of people who just want 1 dungeon a week for 226 piece - stop pretending like random 200 itlv joes are quing for 14s - because that lie.

I am a random 200 ilvl joe using my own 14s key and demolishing people with 15 ilvl more and 1.3k score. So yeah, that happens. And plenty of people with no score and 190 ilvl trying to get into those runs.
And no, I do not show any "mainscore".

[javierdsv]

The only thing this would accomplish is make even less tanks and healers join pugs.

If you can't trust yourself enough not to leave a group then no one wants you in it anyway. And in case you really had an internet issue, the game could force a prompt to join back the group you just left, and don't let you play unless you first attempt to go back to it. If the group is already full or it no longer exists, then no punishment. But if you still decide not to join back then you get punished.

[kamuimac]

I am a random 200 ilvl joe using my own 14s key and demolishing people with 15 ilvl more and 1.3k score. So yeah, that happens. And plenty of people with no score and 190 ilvl trying to get into those runs.
And no, I do not show any "mainscore".

there you go - you are that undergeared player looking for carry and not setting any hard req in req box

and you wonder why 190 people sign .

thats why so many people look for groups with hard 215-220 req so stufflike this dont happen since those people dont even see those groups.

also go on - show us your logs with you demolishing those people - i dare you - because its just urban legend - everyone heared about it happen but you never see it happen in game.

[Bloodyleech]

there you go - you are that undergeared player looking for carry and not setting any hard req in req box

and you wonder why 190 people sign .

thats why so many people look for groups with hard 215-220 req so stufflike this dont happen since those people dont even see those groups.

You think I get carried? Alright my friend. Got no reason to prove you different. The 220ish hunters who cried around were suddenly silent too after those dungeons. So.. /shrug.

(hope you know, that 15s were done with <200, right? People with knowledge exist on these ilvl, too.)

[Rageonit]

The crux of the problem is simple...

You make many fair points and on many things you're right. Personally, I can't imagine how one could force somebody else to leave, but maybe I lack imagination. The worst thing that could happen, IMO - in the conditions I've underlined - is that people would just try to AFK out until the leader makes a group vote to disband the run (which would, obviously, make the entire system moot).

Still, if one could ever think of a system that would make it impossible to force anyone else out: why is it such a problem to have a leaver% stat in the game? We all have bad runs sometimes, that's nothing new. We all drop from those runs. The funny screenshot with zero interrupts, though: we all know that's a freak run, they don't happen that often. Clearly, the leaver% would screw you over ONLY if - for any reason at all - you drop groups a lot more often than an average player. Would it not?