Do you support universal health care? Why or why not?

[beanman12345]

I always find it fascinating that, generally in the US, you can just outright claim "fuck all of you, as long as I'm fine. I don't give a single fuck about anyone else's life" and believe that that is a good position to have. All it does is make you look like a massive twat, no matter how many other twats support your view.

Yeah, people have an idea, someone might agree, and since they lack intelligence, all of a sudden they think it's a good idea, when it's really just a shitty idea. like the idea universal healthcare is bad because nobody should be forced to pay taxes. it's like are you really that dumb?

edit - before mod misread I'm not asking if the person I'm responding to is dumb.

[Gestopft]

It's a really simple black and white line: no one has the freedom to do anything to someone else without their consent. It has absolutely nothing to do with someone being inferior and "needing" to suffer.

So you don't believe in taxes then?

[beanman12345]

So you don't believe in taxes then?

People shouldn't be "coerced" to pay taxes for social programs, like the fire department, despite almost all taxes going to support social programs. I guess any and all taxes should be voluntary, right @PC2? rofl

[PC2]

So you don't believe in taxes then?

For me I don't believe in taxes and nations. Things like taxes and national militaries pretty much only exist to coerce other people. Why anyone wants these things is baffling to me.

With that said though if everyone gave me permission to permanently control policy for the entire world I wouldn't actually change much because i'm an incrementalist. So basically i'd make .5% of all taxes voluntary this year, then .5% each year after that so that all nations could incrementally work on a voluntary and coercion-free society over the next couple centuries. Instantly coming up with alternative solutions is just utopian thinking but there is definitely better and more ethical ways to organize society and get everything we want.

[Mihalik]

It does. Living requires constant consumption of goods, which require work to produce.

I would like to introduce you to industrialization, technology and automation. We aren't quite there yet, but we are well on our way to the point where production and manufacturing will require no meaningful human involvement of any kind.

As far as mandating people to do things? Yes. Because free will and freedom are the literal most important virtues to me and a lot of americans.

So let's clarify something here my dear libertarian edgelord.

Do you believe the police and the court system should only serve those who are able to pay for their services out of pocket?

If your answer is yes, that's not law enforcement, that's a protection racket.

Do you believe the military should only defend those people or organizations that can pay for their defense out of pocket? Or can Canada or Russia just annex Alaska if Alaskans can't find the money to pay for their defense?

If your answer is yes, that's not a defense policy, it's a protection racket run by warlords.

You apply your own alleged values completely arbitrarily. It's so PROFUSELY idiotic that it won't stand up to even the most basic cursory examination. You don't understand what the social contract is, nor what it provides.

If you actually believed in your own bullshit you'd fuck off and go live somewhere where your values are applicable...which is basically about 2 completely failed states somewhere in Africa and maybe Afghanistan. If you are unwilling to do that, than you are a hypocrite and a fucking moocher on the civilized society where you happen to find yourself and whose wellbeing you are actively sabotaging.

Your values aren't American. Your values are dumb and un-American, because you refuse to take responsibility for yourself and for your place in society, you are the polar opposite of what you think you are.

[Felya]

Yeah exactly I don't believe in taxes and nations. Things like taxes and national militaries pretty much only exist to coerce other people. Why anyone wants these things is baffling to me.

You are cource to contribute to building a road to your work, otherwise you wouldn’t do it? What?

[beanman12345]

For me I don't believe in taxes and nations. Things like taxes and national militaries pretty much only exist to coerce other people. Why anyone wants these things is baffling to me.

because stuff like firefighters, libraries, road upkeep, park upkeep, even if taking away all the aid taxes does for the poor, you are baffled by why people are good with taxes, is, actually, knowing you, not surprising.

[Twdft]

Universal would be great, but what's really important is that it's non-profit healthcare.

It doesn't have to be non-profit. Germany has a basic catalogue which lists exactly what a hospitals/doctors can charge for their services. A hip replacement will be the same no matter where you live, no matter your financial background. Hospitals/doctors can provide extra services that are not in the basic catalogue which you then can pay out of pocket or pay for higher insurance. Example: you can pay/insure extra to get a single room in hospitals.

[Endus]

It's a really simple black and white line: no one has the freedom to do anything to someone else without their consent. It has absolutely nothing to do with someone being inferior and "needing" to suffer.

Your position is completely ridiculous for multiple reasons.

1> You've consented. You're a citizen, and remain a citizen, and that's tacit consent to being taxed to support the nation of which you're a citizen. You don't get to whine about lack of consent when you're definitively consenting.

2> You're literally "doing something to someone else without their consent" by refusing to pay your taxes that go to support that person is entitled to. So you're not even consistent with your own ridiculous maxim.

Nothing you're saying is true. I have no idea how you could possibly think any of this is a valid position to hold. It's internally contradictory.

[Theodarzna]

seems to have worked out well in south korea...

Also given Italy's entire problems were due to privatization efforts, and the NHS has had creeping privatization for years, and the US is a practical Charnel house, Universal health care wins again!

[PC2]

You are cource to contribute to building a road to your work, otherwise you wouldn’t do it? What?

Nah I'm happy to pay for roads and I'm happy to contribute to a social program that gives healthcare to poor people. But I don't believe in coercing and forcing anyone to act in accordance with my personal positions.

[Zaktar]

For me I don't believe in taxes and nations. Things like taxes and national militaries pretty much only exist to coerce other people. Why anyone wants these things is baffling to me.

With that said though if everyone gave me permission to permanently control policy for the entire world I wouldn't actually change much because i'm an incrementalist. So basically i'd make .5% of all taxes voluntary this year, then .5% each year after that so that all nations could incrementally work on a voluntary and coercion-free society over the next couple centuries. Instantly coming up with alternative solutions is just utopian thinking but there is definitely better and more ethical ways to organize society and get everything we want.

I really wonder what people like you picture the endgame as. Governments and military power will exist whether you want them or not, the only question is whether you get to participate in the decision making process. If you abolish your own military, I promise you someone in the world won't have, and will happily take your stuff.

[Cthulhu 2020]

You say that as if universal basic income isn’t already a good idea.

Also lol @ the capitalists in the thread calling universal healthcare coerced labor and then supporting compulsory job market participation in the same breath.

Y’all love coercion, just not against you or social classes you aspire to occupy.

I mean the capitalists in this thread are basically modern royalists. They're peasants who idolize kings, and want to maintain a system of a ruling upper class rather than a free and open market. When they so choose, they whinge about how the left doesn't care about the common man in the midwest, wahh wahh wahh the plight of the working poor etc etc. But when the left is enacting policy that would help them they start bawling their eyes out about how taxing the wealthy to pay for these programs is theft.

But again, that's a symptom of being royalists, not capitalists.

[JohnBrown1917]

The fact is that living and life requires work and effort. If you're unwilling or unable to do that, how do you expect to live?

Best part of the US is how you can't afford healthcare and roof over your head while working full time on min. wage.

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I really wonder what people like you picture the endgame as. Governments and military power will exist whether you want them or not, the only question is whether you get to participate in the decision making process. If you abolish your own military, I promise you someone in the world won't have, and will happily take your stuff.

Just look up what ancaps are, that is pretty much the idealogy that PC2 is going for here.

[Underverse]

Universal tiered healthcare with no private option. Cover everyone in full (require medical necessity), standardize prices, single government-led negotiation per drug. Imagine the waste that could be removed from our current system and the subsequent savings.

[Zan15]

Coercion is when you threaten people with force if they don't do what you want. Hospitals and doctors aren't threatening anybody with force. Not to mention if you have a real medical problem in the US you can simply walk into a hospital and they will treat you without requiring payment from you.

No they will stabilize you not treat you.

If you have cancer, walk into the ER and they will stabilize your health and assess you.
they will not give you 6 months of free cancer treatment.
At best you can apply for charity care and hope your case is accepted. Maybe Medicaid, but then again you would have it if you qualified for it and wouldn't be in this situation.

If you get hit by a car and get wheeled into the ER you will be stabilized and they will fix what needs to be fixed to keep you alive. Need a new knee, nope not going to be done. Hip replacement, not unless you can pay for it. Physical Therapy, Nope $$$ or insurance please. They will put you in a wheelchair and send you on your way now that your health is stable.

etc etc.


You should look up the law and actually understand it first.

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I always find it fascinating that, generally in the US, you can just outright claim "fuck all of you, as long as I'm fine. I don't give a single fuck about anyone else's life" and believe that that is a good position to have. All it does is make you look like a massive twat, no matter how many other twats support your view.

welcome the the very reason social security and medicare will be bankrupt after the baby boomer generation dies off.

They refused to increase taxes after 1989 even though employment taxes were increased 30 some odd times before that to keep up with COL changes. And we are talking about tenths of a percent increases over 3 years.
But Baby Boomers and their parents did not want to be taxed since they knew they would get their benefits before they died.

[PC2]

I really wonder what people like you picture the endgame as. Governments and military power will exist whether you want them or not, the only question is whether you get to participate in the decision making process. If you abolish your own military, I promise you someone in the world won't have, and will happily take your stuff.

Nah I think in the next couple centuries all countries such as the USA, China, and Russia will realize that militaries are largely a waste of resources that are just made for evil purposes(violence). I think in the future people will be more ethical and they will not be "happy to take your stuff" through the use of physical force. Humans can be civilized and are not doomed to act like wild animals and thieves for all eternity.

I wasn't saying we should "abolish" anything anytime soon I was just saying we should try to make incremental reductions to all of these things that are based on controlling people by threatening them with violence.

[Jonnusthegreat]

It doesn't have to be non-profit. Germany has a basic catalogue which lists exactly what a hospitals/doctors can charge for their services. A hip replacement will be the same no matter where you live, no matter your financial background. Hospitals/doctors can provide extra services that are not in the basic catalogue which you then can pay out of pocket or pay for higher insurance. Example: you can pay/insure extra to get a single room in hospitals.

Morally, it should be non-profit. What happens when Germany's catalogue says that a hip replacement costs 3 million Euro? Non-profit and regular revisiting of costs is necessary.

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Universal tiered healthcare with no private option. Cover everyone in full (require medical necessity), standardize prices, single government-led negotiation per drug. Imagine the waste that could be removed from our current system and the subsequent savings.

This, as well as replacing welfare with a UBI would be the two best things for the country. Although the healthcare could be private (and would probably run better if it were), and regulated as a utility.

[Zaktar]

Nah I think in the next couple centuries all countries such as the USA, China, and Russia will realize that militaries are largely a waste of resources that are just made for evil purposes(violence). I think in the future people will be more ethical and they will not be "happy to take your stuff" through the use of physical force. Humans can be civilized and are not doomed to act like wild animals and thieves for all eternity.

I wasn't saying we should "abolish" anything anytime soon I was just saying we should try to make incremental reductions to all of these things that are based on controlling people by threatening them with violence.

I hope you're right, I want to believe we're capable of that. I don't think we're there yet however, and ideas like Universal Healthcare are critical to humanity reaching our full potential. If we can take the crushing burden of sickness and ill health off of one another's shoulders, if we can actually make headway against the scourge of mental illness, it will go a long way in removing the massive stressors which cloud our judgment.

[Twdft]

Morally, it should be non-profit. What happens when Germany's catalogue says that a hip replacement costs 3 million Euro? Non-profit and regular revisiting of costs is necessary.

That catalogue is part of our social security laws. Costs are revisited regularly but since it's an actual law chances of costs going up astronomically are slim to none.