[TV] WandaVision

[Jester Joe]

Or maybe it's contextual and depends on perspective.

Which is what I've been saying all along.

I haven't been arguing that Agatha was the unblemished hero of the piece. I've been pointing out that Wanda did more harm than we've seen Agatha do. That a lot of what Agatha was shown to have done was very much from a violence-as-a-last-resort approach. That her capacity to absorb someone's power is, apparently, only possible if they are throwing that power directly at Agatha at the time.

Sure, she's absolutely lying a lot, and gaslighting Wanda, but Wanda was forcing thousands of people to play their roles in her little show. She knew she was forcing them. She just had sold herself the idea that they'd be okay with that loss of control over their actions. Which is . . . really pretty damned crazy.

I think the show's a bit more nuanced than some people seem to think. That's it. That we're gonna see Agatha down the line as a Loki-type character; definitely out for themselves, but capable of helping to save the day in the right circumstances.

It's nuanced in the way I think you're missing.

Wanda didn't know she was forcing people into roles. At some point she started to realize, but when asked she denied it vehemently, and even at the end she didn't truly realize how far it went. You can see this clearly when Agatha breaks the control on them (which mind you, she refrained from doing for...how long?). She says how it's impossible that they shared her pain, that she didn't do that, etc. Once she started to realize near the end, she did think they were genuinely happy at least. Keep in mind she never saw how far the hex went and how people outside of her close range just kinda 404'ed to stand in place. She didn't know that. Again, the entire point even Agatha pointed out that Wanda has no idea what she's doing with her power.

Compare that to when Agatha was chained up and being told WHY she was being punished by the Coven. For forbidden magic. Which she just snidely commented back on, and only started to beg after.

You're oddly giving Agatha the benefit of the doubt in the regard of her crime, yet missing that everything Wanda did was genuinely unintentional. She didn't realize how much pain everyone was in, she didn't realize how much it hurt them. Does it justify her actions and make her innocent? No.

Does it make more sense that she was genuinely suffering from god knows how much mental pain and suffering from severe depression? Yes.

Compared to Agatha, who willingly chose to delve into forbidden magic as presented to us.

Also your idea that "it wasn't a trial", Agatha literally admitted they were right immediately basically. Like, they knew she did it. She said she did it.

To tack this on a bit later, this really just wraps all the way back into what I said earlier.
Wanda summed it all up.

The difference between her and Agatha was Agatha did it all on purpose. Wanda didn't. It was a tragic accident.

[Endus]

That is just the execution. Of course we have reason to think there is more because it was never to be stated that was all they did. Again you are arguing that there is only one possibility, your head canon, and that nothing else can potentially exist.

Get back to me when you can provide an episode and timestamp where the supposed actual trial is displayed or referenced.

Because there's no indication any such ever existed. You're making it up, out of nothing.

- - - Updated - - -

You're oddly giving Agatha the benefit of the doubt in the regard of her crime, yet missing that everything Wanda did was genuinely unintentional.

The core of the issue here is the idea that what Agatha did in the 1600s was a "crime" at all.

We know her gang didn't like her breaking the gang's rules. That's it. Why do you think they had any legitimate authority in the first place?

We have as much reason to believe that as we do Thanos' arguments that killing half the universe was "necessary", or that Mordo is right about Doctor Strange, and so on.

[rhorle]

Get back to me when you can provide an episode and timestamp where the supposed actual trial is displayed or referenced. Because there's no indication any such ever existed. You're making it up, out of nothing.

If there is no evidence that any such ever existed then you can't also claim that she had a trial right? Isn't that weird? Your last post you spent a lot of time to claim we saw her trial on screen in the show but are not saying that there is no time stamp that can be provide to show an actual trial. You even took the time to italicize actual. You really have gone off the deep end here. You literally argued against the argument you made in your last post and think it actually goes against anything I've said.

That is what I've been saying all along. We haven't seen anything but her execution on screen. Could they have gone straight to the execution? Yes. Could they have had a trial? Yes. Your claims on what they did has never been based on the show and your post here proves you were lying the several times you claimed it did. Again, weird right?

- - - Updated - - -

We know her gang didn't like her breaking the gang's rules. That's it. Why do you think they had any legitimate authority in the first place?

The fact that you have to keep calling it a gang rather then coven shows that you are only looking for confirmation of your biased view. You keep having to use descriptors that vilify the coven. Crime or broken rules is semantics. This isn't a modern day court of law even if you keep trying to use modern day views of the death penalty against them.

[Endus]

If there is no evidence that any such ever existed then you can't also claim that she had a trial right?

I can sure point to the actual show and what we actually saw, yeah.

That is what I've been saying all along. We haven't seen anything but her execution on screen. Could they have gone straight to the execution? Yes. Could they have had a trial? Yes.

That second claim is headcanon you are inventing about something that you hypothesize might have occurred but was never mentioned or hinted at in any way in the actual show itself.

It's like talking about Agatha's vampire brother, or that Doctor Strange was trapped in the Hell Dimension and that's why he didn't show up for the duration. Could those things be true? Sure! Do we have any reason in the show to think they were true? Not in the least.

Your claims on what they did has never been based on the show and your post here proves you were lying the several times you claimed it did. Again, weird right?

You really need to learn what "lying" is. Because I haven't lied about a thing.

The fact that you have to keep calling it a gang rather then coven shows that you are only looking for confirmation of your biased view. You keep having to use descriptors that vilify the coven. Crime or broken rules is semantics. This isn't a modern day court of law even if you keep trying to use modern day views of the death penalty against them.

What's the source of their legal authority, then?

If the absence of such, yeah, they're the same thing as a gang, they just have magic rather than guns.

[PACOX]

While i don't disagree with you (yeah, the costume is awsome) i do find it also has been tailored after Elizabeth Olson's protest of her former costume being too revealing (direction of her scenes never helped as well).

Well, we do live in a PC world after all.

It's not PC if that's what she preferred. Some people prefer to be modest.

[Anastacy]

“I did not break your rules. They simply bent to my power.”, she says with a smirk on her face after, of course, lying about not knowing about what she’s being accused of.

Yeah, tooooootally innocent. /s

She only regretted her actions because she got caught, like many criminals do.

[Femininity]

The cringe in this thread is better than the actual show.

[PACOX]

She's objectively done less evil to fewer people in Wandavision than Wanda has. Wanda was essentially torturing thousands of people, for weeks, and got to walk away because "how the fuck could we even try and stop her?", not because anyone agreed she was in the right.

Agatha, meanwhile, killed her coven in self-defense when they tried to kill her, and killed a dog that maybe didn't actually even exist, and tortured two physical illusions that had the shape of children, mostly to pressure their "mom" into doing what Agatha thought was the right thing.

Agatha was very clear that she saw Wanda as basically a toddler with a loaded gun. And her entire arc in the show is trying to get that toddler to give her the gun before someone gets hurt any worse than they already are. Even to trying to wrestle the gun out of the toddler's hands.

If you pay attention, once she reveals herself, almost everything Agatha says and does is about healing Wanda. She may have a pretty harsh bedside manner, but she walks Wanda through her grief and gets her to see how dangerous she is and how badly she's hurting everyone. Without Agatha, who knows how long Wanda would have kept the Hex up, hurting those people more and more in the process? The final air battle is essentially Agatha's last ditch effort, after trying to talk Wanda down has seemingly failed. She even took her time about taking Wanda's magic, to give Wanda time to change her mind; the first bit she absorbed was down in the streets, remember.

If we hadn't been following Wanda's perspective the entire show, Wanda would be the villain, who gets away with everything, and Agatha was the tragic hero who lost everything in saving the day.

I think they dropped the ball on Agatha vs other incarnations of her.
She started off as interesting and ended up being another trope. I can't see how anyone not particularly familiar with the character taking finding any nuance in the MCU Agatha. I feel like they fell 1 or 2 lines short.

[javierdsv]

I don't read the comics, and basically know nothing about Marvel but that ending was so bad, super bland and predictable.

Something like the real Vision fusing with the made up vision and the mind controlling kid preventing the end of both he and his brother with his amazing powers would have been more appealing.

So much build up and character development for nothing. Yikes.

[pzijderv]

I don't read the comics, and basically know nothing about Marvel but that ending was so bad, super bland and predictable.

Something like the real Vision fusing with the made up vision and the mind controlling kid preventing the end of both he and his brother with his amazing powers would have been more appealing.

So much build up and character development for nothing. Yikes.

It almost sounds like you didnt see the episode, as both those things sort of happenend. The 'memory' of vision joined with the physical vision by opening his memory up. And if you watched beyond the credits you know the kids are still alive.

[Warllyz]

I don't read the comics, and basically know nothing about Marvel but that ending was so bad, super bland and predictable.

Something like the real Vision fusing with the made up vision and the mind controlling kid preventing the end of both he and his brother with his amazing powers would have been more appealing.

So much build up and character development for nothing. Yikes.

Ironically what you've described is the predictable ending most people were anticipating. Yikes. Watch the post credit scene with volume on.

[Evil Midnight Bomber]

Not really.

First, I can't assume anything we don't see or that isn't referenced. So I have no reason to assume there was some lengthy trial process, here.

Second, Agatha faces her accusations when she's dragged before them, attempts to make her pleas, and gets shut down without consideration. Why would she try if she'd already tried in a more-formal and more-thorough process? We're given every reason to think the entire process is right there before us.

What actual reason do you have that there was anything but what we saw? And by that, I mean actual evidence from within the narrative itself. Because I feel folks like yourself are the ones making a lot of assumptions, here, starting with the assumption that the coven were "good people". I don't see any reason to presume that, at all, and as I've said, what we do see argues fairly strongly against that.



Because we get no indication that's the case.

This is a perfect example where I am taking the narrative exactly as presented, and not assuming things that aren't "in evidence", here, whereas you're making arguments based on hypotheticals for which there is no evidence at all. And no; absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. I'm not arguing the Sorceror Supreme couldn't have been involved. Just that, like Russell's Teapot, if you want me to take that claim seriously, you'd better have actual evidence to support it, beyond wishful thinking.



How am I biasing what we were shown?

I'm just sticking to what we actually saw, rather than making assumptions that things must have happened differently than we experienced in some significant way.

Agatha confessed. She was asked if she broke their rules. She claimed that she didn't...she just bent them to her will. And then she was found guilty by a jury of her peers and sentenced to death...to be carried out immediately.

Which is exactly what she wanted.

She needed them to use their powers on her so she could drain them. That's what she does. She said as much to Wanda.

Everything Agatha does is malevolent. This is not as assumption. It's her own words. And Wanda says it pretty clear herself "The difference between you and me is that you did this on purpose"

[Nastard]

The 'memory' of vision joined with the physical vision by opening his memory up.

I interpreted that fairly differently. I could be mistaken, but I think what the Hex Vision did was remove the blocks in place on the White Vision to reveal things that were already there, just hidden. I mean, the Hex Vision didn't have any memories of his past and the White Vision had been reprogrammed. So I saw it less of a joining of two beings and more as one being with amnesia regaining his memories with what might as well have been a cartoon mallet to the head. Also, the quick flashes of events being restored in his memory stopped right at the moment he was killed by Thanos. I'd assume it's safe to say everything about the Hex Vision is now gone.

By the way, where did White Vision fuck off to anyway? He just sorta left through the window and I expected a reappearance, or at least some sort of explanation. Maybe he went to Wakanda because his memories stopped there and he thought Thanos was still alive? I dunno.

I'm not sure I understand the argument with Agatha. She started off really interesting, and Kathryn Hahn freakin' killed the role. I really like the character and hope to see more of her in the future. However, morally grey? By the end she was extremely one-dimensional. All her character turned out to be was "power hungry person who will stoop to any means to get more, including killing puppies." That's not just villainous, it's kinda boring DC comics villainous. Though I think the character has immense POTENTIAL to be more than what we were given. Maybe being forced to be happy-go-lucky neighbor Agnes for a while will give her some extra depth. I gotta admit, I didn't like that resolution for her. If anyone should've been forced to be a puppet for a while, it was Wanda. Yeah yeah, she didn't mean to do what she did and realized it was wrong to force that kind of thing on anyone for any reason, but that lesson was unlearned in 5 minutes when she willingly inflicted it on Agatha.

I'm gonna find myself a "Free Agatha" T-shirt now.

[Jester Joe]

Except for the stupid Agatha argument, this article really nails this thread lately

‘WandaVision’ Failed to Deliver Things That Were Never Promised to Me

And as far as the stupid Agatha argument goes, I agree with Endus. You folk are just making shit up that never happened in the show so you can have a "villain" of the piece.

Agatha was morally gray, IMO. Which makes for a much more interesting character.

I guess you missed the part where he said if the show followed Agatha she'd be the tragic hero then?

Because no one is denying that she's morally gray, just none of us are also pretending she's as good person.

[formerShandalay]

I interpreted that fairly differently. I could be mistaken, but I think what the Hex Vision did was remove the blocks in place on the White Vision to reveal things that were already there, just hidden. I mean, the Hex Vision didn't have any memories of his past and the White Vision had been reprogrammed. So I saw it less of a joining of two beings and more as one being with amnesia regaining his memories with what might as well have been a cartoon mallet to the head. Also, the quick flashes of events being restored in his memory stopped right at the moment he was killed by Thanos. I'd assume it's safe to say everything about the Hex Vision is now gone.

By the way, where did White Vision fuck off to anyway? He just sorta left through the window and I expected a reappearance, or at least some sort of explanation. Maybe he went to Wakanda because his memories stopped there and he thought Thanos was still alive? I dunno.

I'm not sure I understand the argument with Agatha. She started off really interesting, and Kathryn Hahn freakin' killed the role. I really like the character and hope to see more of her in the future. However, morally grey? By the end she was extremely one-dimensional. All her character turned out to be was "power hungry person who will stoop to any means to get more, including killing puppies." That's not just villainous, it's kinda boring DC comics villainous. Though I think the character has immense POTENTIAL to be more than what we were given. Maybe being forced to be happy-go-lucky neighbor Agnes for a while will give her some extra depth. I gotta admit, I didn't like that resolution for her. If anyone should've been forced to be a puppet for a while, it was Wanda. Yeah yeah, she didn't mean to do what she did and realized it was wrong to force that kind of thing on anyone for any reason, but that lesson was unlearned in 5 minutes when she willingly inflicted it on Agatha.

I'm gonna find myself a "Free Agatha" T-shirt now.

I agree in hoping that we will see more of Agatha and that she'll be explained better. I still think there's more to her than just the 'evil' version we saw.
I don't agree however with Wanda being worse than Agatha and more deserving of punishment (apart from the fact that noone in the MCU has ever been punished for inflicting psychological horror on people). There were two people in Westview, that knew exactly that the people there were being mindcontrolled and were suffering immensely from Wanda's own pain, Agatha and Vision. Both could have freed them at once and didn't. Vision at least tried to convince Wanda that what she was doing was wrong, but Agatha even reinforced Wanda's delusion that the people were at peace while they were sleeping for example and that the whole thing was ok, by making her own mindslave tell her that during the Halloween special. So in my opinion Agatha derserves far worse than Wanda, because all that she did (and didn't) was on purpose (IF we think that she is not possessed and being mindcontrolled herself).

[Twdft]

Agatha, by her reckoning, is trying to save the world from the danger she can see that Wanda poses. Which juxtaposes nicely with how her coven exactly perceived Agatha in the 1600s. The difference is, Agatha gives Wanda a choice rather than outright condemning her to death.

I think Agatha was just riling up Wanda to use magic on her so she could suck it in. Letting Wanda live was never part of the plan. Agatha is a wicked witch, they even showed her boots after dropping a house on her crashing her into a house lol

[formerShandalay]

I think Agatha was just riling up Wanda to use magic on her so she could suck it in. Letting Wanda live was never part of the plan. Agatha is a wicked witch, they even showed her boots after dropping a house on her crashing her into a house lol

And she even admits as much in the end, when she says she can't make good on her end of the deal.

[Evil Midnight Bomber]

Agatha, by her reckoning, is trying to save the world from the danger she can see that Wanda poses. Which juxtaposes nicely with how her coven exactly perceived Agatha in the 1600s. The difference is, Agatha gives Wanda a choice rather than outright condemning her to death. She's still not a "good person" because she's willing to sacrifice the lives of the people of Westview to placate Wanda, but she's looking at it from the larger perspective where the fate of the entire world hangs in the balance and she has to make that calculation..

Even if we're just going by what we've seen in the show...that isn't Agatha's motivation. She never tries to reason with Wanda. There's no lesson about great power and great responsibility. Never once does she say "I'm only doing this to save the world from you". All she ever says is that she wants the power. She's gaslighting Wanda the whole time. She even tells Wanda that she would fix the spell and let her continue to live in the town with all the people still there under it's effect. And, as soon as she believes she has it, she attempts to kill Wanda. She wasn't giving Wanda a choice...she was just trying to take the power.

As for her coven, while this is never openly stated, it seems to me Agatha wanted them to attempt to kill her...because that's how her ability works. When magic users use their powers on her...she can draw it out of them. I don't know why you and Endus have latched on to the idea that Coven were the evil ones in that scenario. They laid out their case as to why Agatha needed to die. Agatha did not even deny what she did. ..she basically just said that their rules no longer apply to her. They were the ones trying to protect the world....not Agatha.

There's no doubt that what Wanda did was terrible...but she did it out of grief...and for most of the show she really doesn't seem to be entirely aware that she's done anything at all. She doesn't even realize that she's actually hurting people until the very end. And when she does realize it...she tries to let them all go.

Wanda says it herself to Agatha when she's inside her mind. "The difference between you and I...is that you did it on purpose". (or words to that effect)

[monkfailz]

Just finished watching all episodes and THE FINALE of Wandavision:

- Damn, Scarlet Witch is very powerful. You go girl.
- White Vision vs. Color Vision was cool.
- That evil book. The Darkhold book. Coulson had it in Marvel's Agents of SHIELD. Nothing good ever comes from that book.
- Monica Rambeau has superpowers. Maybe her own spin-off, lol?

Wandavision was Wandatastic!

[Logwyn]

Just finished watching all episodes and THE FINALE of Wandavision:

- Damn, Scarlet Witch is very powerful. You go girl.
- The double Vision fight was cool.
- That Darkhold book. Appeared in Marvel's Agents of SHIELD.
- Monica Rambeau has superpowers. Maybe her own spin-off, lol?

Wandavision was Wandatastic!

Scarlet Witch = Strongest Avenger.