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Mythic+ Dungeon Adjustments - 27 April
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MMO-Champion
What the hell is going on?
I truly feel like im in the movie "Idiocracy" or something.
How is this possible? Xaryu and Stoopz...2 youtubers i respected saying the rogue nerfs were too much.
Wha....how....why? Is this real life?
Examples:
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2020-12-21, 04:23 PM #1Elemental Lord
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Why are respected youtubers saying the rogue nerfs were "too much"?
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2020-12-21, 05:12 PM #2The Patient
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Xaryu likes RMP lol
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2020-12-21, 05:26 PM #3Pandaren Monk
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How respected are these supposed to be?
Originally Posted by Shadoowpunk
Stoopz looks like melee main kinda guy? And Xaryu plays RMP. Neither of these guys plays a class that has problems with rogues.
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2020-12-21, 05:38 PM #4Elemental Lord
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Yeah...but i just dont understand how someone can defend the state rogues were in...i lost all respect for this people and they come out as someone with an agenda (to me) Originally Posted by Sativ
How can someone with more skill than me have this opinion.
Human are flawed but...wtf
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2020-12-21, 05:40 PM #5Scarab Lord
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Because they were too much lol.
Yeah Rogues were way too strong, but now they're just mediocre. Their damage isn't exactly irrelevant, but it's pretty close, sure they do a lot in the opener with blades (nowhere near what other melee do), but after their 3min CD ends they really just don't do much.
Rogues will still always have a place in 3s because of their control and setup potential, but that's about it. And in 2s their only comp is Rogue/Mage now because Fire Mages are so strong, Rogue/Healer is basically not even viable since nobody is dying to a solo Rogue since the nerfs.
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2020-12-21, 05:44 PM #6The Lightbringer
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Maybe, just maybe, they were over nerfed? Originally Posted by Shadoowpunk
Went from being stupidly OP to incredibly weak? Cause that seems to be the case.
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2020-12-21, 05:44 PM #7Scarab Lord
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Respected ? LULZ.
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2020-12-21, 05:47 PM #8Elemental Lord
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Well...i hope thats the case. Originally Posted by Eldar45
Maybe a main rogue can shed some light on the matter. They dont seem incredibly weak to me :S
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2020-12-21, 05:51 PM #9The Lightbringer
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That's funny Originally Posted by Shadoowpunk
Anyway, like most OP FotM when it gets hit with a nerf bat, those who were enjoying the ride feel as though the sky it falling. Give it a couple weeks and no one will even remember. Originally Posted by Elim Garak
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2020-12-21, 05:56 PM #10Titan
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It's an ongoing problem with competitive PvP (not just in WoW): balance may be experienced differently at different skill levels.
Something may feel meh in the hands of an average rando, but may be devastatingly overpowered in the hands of a highly skilled operator. That creates a balance problem at the high end of the skill curve, where a lot of promotion takes place (tournaments, streams, etc.) but people at the low end of the curve may not be aware of it to the same extent; so when things are nerfed to bring the top end in line, it may have ramifications at the other end of the spectrum and cause confusion there because people didn't experience the imbalance but DO experience the nerf.
The opposite may be the case as well, of course. And then there's the issue of nerfs missing the mark, i.e. over-nerfing or under-nerfing do occur. It's a difficult world.
In WoW, this is of course complicated further by the bleedover from/to PvE. In the case of Rogues, for example, they are currently quite bad in competitive raiding (the top 2 WRF guilds basically have zero right now) but will probably be "required" meta in M+. Any nerfs/buffs there would undoubtedly affect PvP as well, and vice versa.
It's a rough situation, but Blizzard seems adamant about not separating PvP and PvE more, whatever the cost. Someone will pay that price, one way or another.
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2020-12-21, 06:00 PM #11Keyboard Turner
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The rogue nerfs was bad. Really bad. It was way too much. They rushed a nerf because people with no clue about pvp was crying all over the forums. Imo they should have removed the broken stuff. 100% crit legendary will always be a nightmare to balance in pvp and should not be there. Duel stacking should also be fixed. When that is done they should buff rogue dmg. I don't even have a lvl 60 rogue yet, but I am against these kind of nerfs. This is something we should never want to see. Small, frequent changes is always better for a game imo.
Last edited by Cypheo; 2020-12-21 at 06:05 PM.
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2020-12-21, 06:02 PM #12Mechagnome
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I mean you aren't going to get an unbiased answer. You'll likely get a main rogue saying it was too much because they well....main rogue. Originally Posted by Shadoowpunk
I play a resto shaman and there was zero counterplay to be had if left alone with one. Any competent rogue will look for a trinket on cheap shot. I might get lucky and get my wall up or something, but if that's the case I just get blinded while they restealth and wait until my defensive runs out. Waiting to trinket the kidney results in the same story.
All other classes I've had some ability to counterplay them. For Example, Balance druids I can pre-wall, grounding totem, kick their convoke, etc. Plenty of options.
So that's my biased opinion.
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2020-12-21, 06:05 PM #13Stood in the Fire
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Because this is how it always was, Blizzard balance thinks only by switching them between "op" and "garbage". Just look at any patch notes, you'll seed numbers like "increased by 50%", " increased by 100%".
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2020-12-21, 06:10 PM #14The Unstoppable Force
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I can’t only speak as a holy pally player but I’d say that rouges likely should have gotten some out of stealth buffs with all the opener nerfs they got.
Rouges do pretty much nothing now but die, every 2’d match since the nerf has just been them trying to run away after there openers fail which is always kinda sad.Last edited by Lorgar Aurelian; 2020-12-21 at 06:14 PM.
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2020-12-21, 06:15 PM #15Pit Lord
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I'd be pretty pissed too if my only claim to fame was abusing RMP, and all of a sudden the R got removed.
Scheduled weekly maintenance caught me by surprise.
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2020-12-21, 06:18 PM #16Mechagnome
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Like where you said you were leaving, but then here to you are...simping for YTers... Originally Posted by Shadoowpunk
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2020-12-21, 06:23 PM #17Elemental Lord
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I THINK Stoopz was the reason why PvP gearing got changed. So i love that Originally Posted by Xjan
If he was not the sole culprit...he was at least a fighter for what we have today.
PvP gearing was NOTHING like what we have today.
If it wasnt for his video...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h1mc...nel=Stoopzz_TV
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2020-12-21, 06:26 PM #18Bloodsail Admiral
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They're right but there's definitely a disconnect between high rated arena players and other people on this topic. The reason is basically because top players will press a defensive or react otherwise the second a rogue opens on them with Shadow Blades and Shadow Dance, so they survive the opening burst simply by walling or having a warrior stun into disarm the rogue, whereas the average player will just die immediately. This also goes for other rogue kill attempts which basically only happen during Shadow Dance, meaning rogues aren't as strong in high level play as they are at ganking random players out in the world.
That said I don't think the nerfs were all that far over the top, rogues are not unviable or anything, but they do fall squarely behind warriors, Windwalkers, ferals and Ret paladins in rated pvp atm.
The Echoing Reprimand nerf went kinda over the top (should've been 30% instead of 50%) and probably some of these other top classes should have their defensives or peels nerfed a bit (outlined my ideas in the Shadowlance Balancing thread).Last edited by Warning; 2020-12-21 at 06:28 PM.
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2020-12-21, 06:33 PM #19Brewmaster
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Whoah, you're alive! Originally Posted by Sativ
On the topic of the thread, I really dgaf about the magntitude of the nerfs, it's just disappointing that the devs yet again got Rogue design wrong on a mechanical level leading to a Subtlety Spec that will either feast or famine based on the tuning of it's stupid one shot based on stacking 50 different damage modifiers (most of them totally extraneous like Symbols of Death and Shadow Blades) and damage trinkets.
Probably this will be another expansion where I am rooting for Rogue irrelevance in PvP and PvE because it's better that fewer people get attached to it when still more design changes are necessary to actually promote healthy gameplay.Subtlety Rogue was an amazing, incredible, unique, and fun spec prior to Legion and BfA
“All opinions are not equal. Some are a very great deal more robust, sophisticated and well supported in logic and argument than others.”
― Douglas Adams
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2020-12-21, 06:35 PM #20The Lightbringer
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I was hoping they would leave Rogues alone so we could justify just having everything 1 shot anything.
Now we've 100% entered this weird uncertainty area where we don't know who's getting nerfed next, are people sposed to be getting blown up? yes, no? No dampening in 2s?? What's the rationale? We don't know what we're doing? Them making zero statements about anything just tells me they don't know what to do.
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