Can time really be changed in the World of Warcraft universe?

[OwenBurton]

This is the nature of time in the cosmos, as per the most recent lore via Chronicles:

In all known realms of the cosmos, time flows forward, ever forward. Chaotic energies in places like the Twisting Nether can affect how quickly it flows, but it only flows forward.

Once an event happens, it cannot be changed. These events and choices, made up of all creatures and forces in the cosmos, join together like a river, sharing the same reality. Different choices and different possibilities naturally spin off the river of time like small creeks and estuaries, ebbing and flowing for a while. If these shades of what could have been are left alone, they will eventually dissipate into nothing. If efforts are made to preserve them (or alter them), they can indeed remain in existence indefinitely. They can even be made to feed back into the main river—dead creatures can seemingly "live again," and the past (or future) may literally come back to haunt you. This is not a natural phenomenon, and the inhabitants of the main timeway will often find these experiences to be quite alarming.

But the only timeway that has a permanent effect on the cosmos is the main timeway. Creatures like the bronze dragons, who have command of temporal magic, can see all the countless tributaries of alternate universes and timelines, and they can even move back and forth along the stream to observe the past and the future.

If that main river is disrupted, it could spell doom and disaster. All life on Azeroth depends on time to flow ever forward. Without the surety that the sun will rise and set each day, the seasons would not pass, the cycle of life would become meaningless, and all living creatures would eventually die from being unable to sustain themselves. It is the most sacred mission of the bronze dragonflight to keep that from happening

However, other lore points apparently contradict this, for example, Soridormi's dialogue, and the events of the Twilight of the Aspects:

The Battle of Mount Hyjal is one of the most well-guarded events of this timeline. Should an intruder alter its outcome, the impact would extend to all subsequent moments in history.

As the Aspect's prime mate I'm far more in tune with the flow of time than other bronze dragons. I recently sensed a minute ripple in time emanating from the events surrounding the Battle of Mount Hyjal. Someone or something is attempting to change this timeline and they must be stopped.

If past events cannot be permanently altered -- well, why does the bronze dragonflight even exist? If the infinite dragonflights' efforts to rewrite the clockwork universe is doomed to failure, why spend so much effort endlessly opposing their machinations? Or is there something here that I am entirely missing? What do you think? Can time itself be changed or altered?

[huth]

This is the nature of time in the cosmos, as per the most recent lore via Chronicles:

Read the last paragraph from the Chronicle blurb. It's not meant in the sense of "changing is impossible" but "changing must be avoided at all cost".

I.e. "it cannot be changed or there will be terrible repercussions".

[MikeBogina]

I hate the idea of time travel, but yes it seems it can be changed.

The fact that Broxxigar is still shown in Illidan's past shows that the events of the War of the Ancients Trilogy did happen in the main timeline. You may think that none of the major events changed, but things did change because of his presence(there's even a plant axe made for him that exists in the present that didn't before).

[OwenBurton]

I hate the idea of time travel, but yes it seems it can be changed.

The fact that Broxxigar is still shown in Illidan's past shows that the events of the War of the Ancients Trilogy did happen in the main timeline. You may think that none of the major events changed, but things did change because of his presence(there's even a plant axe made for him that exists in the present that didn't before).

In some universes, the past cannot be truly altered -- attempts to change events only inevitably create a divergent reality. I wonder whether this is applicable to Warcraft.

[Dagul]

I have a short and quick idea about this, let's take mt Hyjal for an exemple

So if a enemy, power whatever can go to alternative time-line, and legion win at mount Hyal, it can mean azeroth will die, or all his denizen, including the bronze dragonflight that keep in check all time-line

So if there is a time line without time guardian, I think this is where they can disrupt the main time, maybe I have to read about the bad time dragonflies (I think that is the purpose of Bronze Dragon, looking all time line to be sure no evil power can win there and gather power there to attack main time, all cavern of time as exemple)

Or another exemple of true time-line being disrupted, WoD ! Gul dan could come to normal Azeroth, not his alternative Azeroth, and he did have impact on it

Maybe this is how the time can be "alternate"

[Nazrark]

If the main timeline’s events are unchanging. Then the events we make sure happen in Caverns of Time are the Bronze Dragons fighting against becoming an off shoot. We are watching the events of End Time play out. Tyrande, Sylvannas, Jaina and Baine are all becoming their counterparts in the dungeon.

There is evidence that no matter what we try and do, we can’t change the end result.

[Razion]

I think the implication when they say it "cannot" be changed, means "if all goes according to plan," as in, how the Titan's envision it should according to how they empowered the Bronze Dragonflight. Aman'thul knows of Nozdormu's true death - the one where he turns to Murozond, and so does Nozdormu. So Norzdormu's fate is inescapable. The Infinite Dragonflight as it were, will eventually reach a point where the proper Timeline will be wherever it is "supposed" to be. But I don't think this means that time hasn't changed at all. The Bronze Dragonflight has had to go back to fix the errors caused by the Infinite Dragonflight - so while we could view this as the Timeline being changed and fixed, we could also view events as being exaclty as they were ultimately before because they were fixed. I think in this perspective, events being fixed means the events are staying the same. I think the perspective here is that the Bronze Dragonflight ultimately wins, and that this against Murozond is immutable - it has already been seen, it has already happened, and that cannot be avoided. Just as this, situations like rogue mages doing Alter Times or Time Warp may break the timeline but the implication is that a Bronze Dragon will go back and fix the Timeline eventually in those eventualities. "Order" must be maintained, the "ultimate outcome" sucha s Murozond's death must be maintained, and avoidance of the victory of Void and such forces is what is ultimately what is seen by Order/The Titans is what is immutable. Victory in the lens of Time here is Absolute because it is seen as a closed loop - it has already closed, so there is no other outcome, except when it isn't, but then it gets fixed, just as it should be. It's a little blind and well, not entirely honest. But it's kind of like lying and working hard to make the lie truth. To the Titans, or maybe even the Bronze Dragonflight, if even if things may break the Timeline temporarily as long as they're fixed then nothing was really changed ultimately.

[Dagul]

Ho Razion your view seems super plausible, so if I got it right, Titan ordered the time-line they wanted and nominated Bronze Dragon to keep it, Murazond coming is inevitable, and his defeat is inevitable too, whatever happen it is already fixed in stone

I hope I understood right so my question is correct

That's the Titan view on things, but we see in Warcraft universe that all major forces have their own agenda

So do you think that the void could make their endless true come true to counter the order of thing ? Is the light way of seeing things identical to the order view ? If death win, things can't evolve anymore

If I got your text right is like the theory of God can't change the future, has he already know what will happen, super deep !

[huth]

In some universes, the past cannot be truly altered -- attempts to change events only inevitably create a divergent reality. I wonder whether this is applicable to Warcraft.

No, it's not, and it says so in the Chronicle quote you posted.

The mission of the Bronze Flight would be completely pointless otherwise, since the event they're meant to prevent wouldn't be possible.

Basically, the past can't be changed because a dragon will pop up and kick your ass if you try to.

[TheFirstOnes]

Pretty sure, yeah?

Broxigar, anyone?

- - - Updated - - -

Also, the Infinite Dragonflight exists for a reason, same with the Bronze Dragonflight...

[FelPlague]

I hate the idea of time travel, but yes it seems it can be changed.

The fact that Broxxigar is still shown in Illidan's past shows that the events of the War of the Ancients Trilogy did happen in the main timeline. You may think that none of the major events changed, but things did change because of his presence(there's even a plant axe made for him that exists in the present that didn't before).

It feels like Rick and morty's idea of time travel (I know cringe but it works)

That there is just fuckloads of alternate universes and most of the time they are just skipping from one to another, to the point you lose track of which one you are in, and if it really matters. Like at this point maybe that book was of another timeline and this timeline is the one they got sent to, and yeah?

[MikeBogina]

In some universes, the past cannot be truly altered -- attempts to change events only inevitably create a divergent reality. I wonder whether this is applicable to Warcraft.

You're referring to Endgame logic, right? I do like that they did try to set in stone the rules/laws of time travel, but they then goof'd with Captain America. I think what you and others may think is that you can't change the past or else divergent timelines are born, but if you lay low then it's ok... which still even if it's a minor change, the mere presence of someone going into the past automatically makes it not the same timeline... if those rules apply.

When say the avengers go back, just being in that timeline made it a separate one, even if they didn't interact with anyone, molecules moved, etc... The fact that Broxxigar going back in time is acknowledged, means that divergent timelines wont be created. He exists in the past and that has changed the future, thus the past can be changed.

You know what universe actually does have a shit ton of diverging timelines? DBZ. The universe we watch in DBZ isn't even the original timeline, nor is it the second or third. by the time of Goku Black, we're watching like the 5th, 6th or 7th divergent timeline I believe, more if you the numerous jumps back and forth in Super @_@

[MikeBogina]

It feels like Rick and morty's idea of time travel (I know cringe but it works)

That there is just fuckloads of alternate universes and most of the time they are just skipping from one to another, to the point you lose track of which one you are in, and if it really matters. Like at this point maybe that book was of another timeline and this timeline is the one they got sent to, and yeah?

Sadly I haven't watched Rick and Morty yet, but I hear it gets crazy that there's 100's of versions of Rick and Morty lol.

I just wish that Blizzard would drop time travel altogether if they're not going to take it even slightly serious. Like we have playable Mag'har now and we still don't know if they come from a legit alternative timeline, a "possible" timeline or something in between that Kairoz caused with his shenanigans :/

[Low Hanging Fruit]

Yeah.. it is fictional.. so all the writers have to do is.. be like.. "time is now changed" and then guess what.. time.. its changed..

Really not that hard.

[TheRevenantHero]

The reason the Bronze Dragonflight keeps sending adventurers back in time to stop the Infinite Dragonflight is because changing the past is possible but it would be devastating to our present and future. So as to avoid that, time is strictly enforced by the Bronze Dragonflight.

[Aucald]

In the WoW universe time can indeed be altered and has been altered. In the War of the Ancients trilogy time travel is responsible for the continued existence of the Blue Dragonflight, as a present-day Krasus saved some of Malygos' offspring - restoring the Blue Dragonflight from the brink of extinction as Malygos was previously the sole Blue dragon left alive. Time travel is also responsible for our original access to Karazhan, as Medivh gives the champion PC his own key to Karazhan when you meet him in the past in the Black Morass instance - a key that you then use in the present to access the tower and confront Melchazaar.

The Bronze Dragonflight polices and protects time to prevent changes to the timeways that would be deleterious to the "one, true timeline" that the Titans envisioned. They'll permit minor changes that don't upset the balance of the future, so to speak, but beyond that they'll step in to prevent major changes from taking place.

[Razion]

Ho Razion your view seems super plausible, so if I got it right, Titan ordered the time-line they wanted and nominated Bronze Dragon to keep it, Murazond coming is inevitable, and his defeat is inevitable too, whatever happen it is already fixed in stone

I hope I understood right so my question is correct

That's the Titan view on things, but we see in Warcraft universe that all major forces have their own agenda

So do you think that the void could make their endless true come true to counter the order of thing ? Is the light way of seeing things identical to the order view ? If death win, things can't evolve anymore

If I got your text right is like the theory of God can't change the future, has he already know what will happen, super deep !

- Can the Void make their Truth reality to counter Order?

The Void I think is obsessed with trying. It sees all realities and will try to make literally anything else possible. It has to plan and corrupt to try and change events for the future by setting things in motion in the present. It would probably go very well for them if Order never set anything in motion to get in the way of events like the Hour of Twilight from happening via us. It seems that even when carefully laid plans by Void are set in motion to stop us at one very moment, that Order can swoop in with Time and nothing that the Void does can stop these time jump fixes without Order coming right back in through another Timeway and fixing it again. Can Void win? Void can bend reality, and they have infinite win conditions... but that's the thing, Order can retry over and over and over again, always resetting the fights and always resetting until the perfect reality is all going to plan. This is the reality, the One True Timeline that we are prophesized to be on. Whatever ultimate fate awaits us, Order seems confident that we are on the right path and that the Void has and will ultimately lose. Even the most dire of potentials of Murozond wasn't enough to stop an earlier Nozdormu from stopping a corrupted version of himself. This is the power of Order, of Time. Even when Void wins with corrupting their most powerful angle of repair to Order, the Order of the Past can still come through to the Future to stop it. This is the power of sight to the One True Timeline. Ultimately they're both versatile in different ways. Void would have to stop Order before it could ever be possible, but Order is already in a position to go back and stop interference from happening in the first place. It seems Order is already in checkmate and Void, however early they needed to act to prevent this, already lost.

- Is the Light's view of things identical to Order?

I think there are parts where they overlap, and them working together seems to be in each other's best interests often (stopping Arthas, stopping Deathwing, stopping Sargeras, stopping the Old Gods) but I think the ultimate end goal of the Light is perhaps not just to stop the Void, but to succeed in their own way where everything falls under the Light. I think in the case of beings like Xe'ra we can see that the Light's ultimate purpose is to have control and rule (like over Illidan) whereas the ultimate goal of Order would be to just have everything working -- and it would well be that Void corrupting and Light ruling would be a case where things are very much not 'Working As Intended' for Order so it would seem that in cases like Illidan, it would be in Order's best interests to let Illidan be a free agent and in Light's best interests to control him. Like a subroutine gone wrong and infected with a virus, I think Order will eventually want to cleanse Light and Void far in the future - but when they're beneficial to have everything 'Working As Intended' it would seem to me that the Titans are fine to let even things like Old Gods fester and Xe'ra even get close to Illidan if it means Azeroth would otherwise be destroyed. Azeroth seems to be the key, the ultimate Queen Piece in this game of Chess that Order is so carefully planning. If the Light came along and tried to Lightforge Azeroth into a Lightforged Titan in order to destroy the Void, how much control the Light has on Azeroth seems like the kind of thing Order would try to see through... with mortals like us primed to getting in the way as their little debuggers, if that future isn't the one Order wanted. If Light can get over its desire to control everything, and Azeroth for example can be free to just stop Void and all the rest, the two could potentially live in harmony. But the Light is blind to any other future right now than the one they know. For the Light to work together with Order they would have to be given the sight that Order has - perhaps then, they would understand, that their way isn't the only way.

- If Death wins, things can't evolve anymore

In a case of True Death, such as when beings die in the Shadowlands, souls can no longer Ascend, Repent, Rebirth, or otherwise fuel Anima into the Shadowlands to protect the cycle of souls going back to refuel the living. If all souls in the Shadowlands die a True Death permanently, it would truly be the end of all things in the worst way possible as there would be no more souls to go back to the realm of the living. It seems though, that new souls are generated by world-souls on planets like Draenor with large abundance of Life in them. A world-soul is but the spirit of a titan, and is a being like any other and it seems the Shadowlands has to fuel the return of souls to world-souls so that they can develop themselves and spare the anima needed to make Life on their planets so that they can be protected while they are most vulnerable during their growing in their shells. The Life has to get to a world-soul somehow, like the Shadowlands, so it may be the case that if the Shadowlands and all the beings there die True Deaths there really can't be any more Life to exist for those planets -- leaving them vulnerable and weakened to corruption like from Fel, Death, or Void. Is Sargeras knowing of the ultimate true path, and is his Crusade to destroy planets corrupted part of the plan of Order by beings like Aman'thul? In this case, we can infer that when a world-soul dies before it is corrupted that the world-soul can go to the Shadowlands to eventually be reborn. It is perhaps catastrophic then, in the current state of things, that if Azeroth were to die right now that it would go straight to the Maw. Certainly this would be a bad situation, but we know souls can regenerate and eventually rebirth from time in the Shadowlands in places like Ardenweald, so as long as Azeroth is potentially reclaimed it could perhaps be saved in such a catastrophic situation... as long as Azeroth doesn't experience a True Death, that is. If that happens, I think whatever ultimate plan Order has for Azeroth as the one Titan of greatest Order may spell doom for the universe. And at that point, it would be up to Light to save us all, and then up to us to save ourselves from Light.

[Uurdz]

This is the nature of time in the cosmos, as per the most recent lore via Chronicles:



However, other lore points apparently contradict this, for example, Soridormi's dialogue, and the events of the Twilight of the Aspects:



If past events cannot be permanently altered -- well, why does the bronze dragonflight even exist? If the infinite dragonflights' efforts to rewrite the clockwork universe is doomed to failure, why spend so much effort endlessly opposing their machinations? Or is there something here that I am entirely missing? What do you think? Can time itself be changed or altered?

Firstly, yes because everything/anything can always be retcon'd.

Looking at the example of AU Draenor either we understand that WoW is in a multiverse where time is not simultaneous which allowed us to visit a version of Draenor that hadnt drunk Mannaroth's blood OR we are able to travel back in time when visiting other Universes.

If the former is true, then it's unclear. If the latter then we already have evdience that time can eb changed.

Time always flows forward. There are not examples of things moving backwards (a la Tenet).

Lastly im not sure there is any lore addressing the creation of Time itself. This is something that further helps understand how you might address narratives of time. For example, if an entity created time then it stands to reasons moving in/out of time (time travel) would be possible. However, if time has simply always existed then it might be more akin to universal rules similar to the law of cause and effect.

[TheFirstOnes]

I wonder what the First Ones are thinking throughout all of this...

[Selastan]

Yeah...the fact that the Bronze and Infinite exist is proof enough that it can be changed. There is a lot of wiggle room when it comes to the details, though. Like alternate universes (WoD). Blizzard isn't as good at writing metaphysical magic like Bethesda is. (At least they fix their bugs, though)