Would you support Sylvanas Windrunner if you still had the choice?

[huth]

No, this isn't related to being personally affected. It's about the reasons given that could (or could not) justify the action. I might not be happy if someone killed me or someone I cared about in order to save the planet, but I'd understand why they do it, and I'd say it's justifiable if they do.

Even if the person doing the killing makes no effort to explain why? And, quite honestly, that makes you sound a psychopath. Normal people tend to react far less understanding in such a situation.

It's not that east to relate to because we don't really HAVE stakes like that in the real world. But we can have them in fictional settings.

Actually, your argumentation makes more sense when there aren't any stakes, as would be the case here. No matter what happens, we won't be affected by it so we can afford to risk letting somebody destroy the world to see if it was worth it.

[Specialka]

Even if it turns out that her doing all those things was what saved Azeroth, and that if she hadn't done them, everyone would have died? Which I'm not saying is necessarily what happened, but it's not an option we can exclude right now given our lack of information.

Yes, because ONE person does not have the right to take that kind of decision alone.

[Soon-TM]

Erevien, you already got banned in pretty much every WoW related site, but you just cant stop digging your own grave arent you?

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Werent those draenei from Auchindon? I mean the already dead ones. And between suffering forever and being obliterated i would pick obliteration.

Plus he is a villain, just not on a scale Sylvanas is. Because he never went to the point of “fucking up entire universe and turning Death upside down”.

Legion definitely didn't depict him as a villain. As for the last part, Sylvie hasn't done anything of that sort yet. Maybe she wants to (assuming it won't be retconned in 6 months or something), but so far she's nothing but a supervisor in the Jailor's call centre.

[Biomega]

Even if the person doing the killing makes no effort to explain why? And, quite honestly, that makes you sound a psychopath. Normal people tend to react far less understanding in such a situation.

Most people use a very intuitive sense of morality without much in-depth consideration. As for the explanation - I don't really care if the person themselves is explaining things, only if we get that information somehow (and it's reasonably complete and accurate, of course). I'm not sure why it would matter who's explaining things. What WOULD matter is the lack of explaining LEADING to the situation in the first place, i.e. them not telling anyone is why they were forced to do what they did and if they HAD told someone other things could have been done. But that's getting increasingly hypothetical here.

Actually, your argumentation makes more sense when there aren't any stakes, as would be the case here. No matter what happens, we won't be affected by it so we can afford to risk letting somebody destroy the world to see if it was worth it.

For outside viewers, sure. But we'd have to judge things from within the diegesis. Otherwise you could just go "lol none of the people in Teldrassil were even real so whatever". It's a common problem for hypotheticals (of which fictional settings are a subset), and it makes it hard to really empathize.

Yes, because ONE person does not have the right to take that kind of decision alone.

That's fair.

[VladlTutushkin]

Legion definitely didn't depict him as a villain. As for the last part, Sylvie hasn't done anything of that sort yet. Maybe she wants to (assuming it won't be retconned in 6 months or something), but so far she's nothing but a supervisor in the Jailor's call centre.

According to the whole plot of BfA and Shadowlands she was the vital part of Jailer's plan of demolishing and rebuilding Afterlife and she planned to wipe out both factions in their entirety (but yes she came short of expectations but still did enough to help the Jailer achieve his goals to a certain degree) so she is not just a "supervisor", she is a vital cornerstone of his "fuck up all Death" plan.

[Melusine]

Yes

Too bad everyone is so obssessed with everyone being goodie two shoes so we can never be evil ourselves. Like its a video game who tf cares about honor, I want to blight some towns and kill alliance all day long. Why I play a always pick imperial in swtor

Or y'know having the alliance pay for what they've done to the horde throughout the years. Destroying Draenor, Destroying Lordaeron, having garithos try to cull the remanining blood elves, Theramore and the explorers league fucking over the tauren, Opening fire upon goblin vessels because why not, massacre on vulpera and telling the nightborne to go f themselves

1. Destroying Draenor. The Alliance did not do that. Ner'zhul did.
2. Destroying Lordaeron. Arthas did that after betraying the Alliance.
3. Garithos. Yeah, fuck that guy. I'm not saying the Alliance doesn't have any bad apples in it, I mean, hell, we have Aedelas Blackmoore who was a big bad apple.
4. Theramore and the explorers league fucking over the tauren. Don't forget, the Grimtotem set the stage to frame the Tauren for the destruction of Human settlements at the edge of Dustwallow.
5. Goblins and Vulpera.... sure.
6. Telling the nightborne to go f themselves. Tyrande did that. This was not general Alliance sentiment. In fact, she was a lone voice, and shouldn't have been listened to in the first place.

[Soon-TM]

According to the whole plot of BfA and Shadowlands she was the vital part of Jailer's plan of demolishing and rebuilding Afterlife and she planned to wipe out both factions in their entirety (but yes she came short of expectations but still did enough to help the Jailer achieve his goals to a certain degree) so she is not just a "supervisor", she is a vital cornerstone of his "fuck up all Death" plan.

Lolno. She isn't a vital anything, given how the Jailor addresses to her. Maybe she believes she is oh so important, but given that our Sylv gurl has always had delusions of grandeur, I wouldn't put too much trust into what she says, given how she managed to lie to herself in her inner monologue.

[VladlTutushkin]

Lolno. She isn't a vital anything, given how the Jailor addresses to her. Maybe she believes she is oh so important, but given that our Sylv gurl has always had delusions of grandeur, I wouldn't put too much trust into what she says, given how she managed to lie to herself in her inner monologue.

Just to point out, after i thought of it some people lie to themselves a lot. Those are usually more dangerous then those that only lie to others.

And well, at least she THOUGHT she was vital and she was sure as hell ready to throw Azeroth into the grinder to squeeze the souls out. We just were tougher then she expected and broke the grinder (aka the N'zoth).

[huth]

Most people use a very intuitive sense of morality without much in-depth consideration. As for the explanation - I don't really care if the person themselves is explaining things, only if we get that information somehow (and it's reasonably complete and accurate, of course). I'm not sure why it would matter who's explaining things. What WOULD matter is the lack of explaining LEADING to the situation in the first place, i.e. them not telling anyone is why they were forced to do what they did and if they HAD told someone other things could have been done. But that's getting increasingly hypothetical here.

You were far to hypothetical already when you started. This all sounds nice and clean... but it's completely worthless for practical application where you only get guesses and claims, not accurate information, and generally don't have the option to just wait till it's all over to judge things.

Sylvanas effectively refuses to give us the context we'd need to understand her actions, and that's not speaking in her favour.

[Biomega]

You were far to hypothetical already when you started. This all sounds nice and clean... but it's completely worthless for practical application where you only get guesses and claims, not accurate information, and generally don't have the option to just wait till it's all over to judge things.

Sylvanas effectively refuses to give us the context we'd need to understand her actions, and that's not speaking in her favour.

It's a matter of degrees. We know very little about the exact situation, but we can be reasonably certain that we WILL know more as the story progresses - every new Torghast cutscene, for example, has brought us additional information. It's entirely reasonable to assume we'll get more in the future. To say we won't and will just have to base our judgement on what we have right now seems a little premature and irresponsible to me.

[huth]

It's a matter of degrees. We know very little about the exact situation, but we can be reasonably certain that we WILL know more as the story progresses - every new Torghast cutscene, for example, has brought us additional information. It's entirely reasonable to assume we'll get more in the future. To say we won't and will just have to base our judgement on what we have right now seems a little premature and irresponsible to me.

I'm not saying we won't get more information later. I'm saying you can't endlessly defer judgement, and generally won't have the full picture by the time you must decide on a course of action.

[Biomega]

I'm not saying we won't get more information later. I'm saying you can't endlessly defer judgement, and generally won't have the full picture by the time you must decide on a course of action.

Nobody is saying anything about deferring judgement endlessly. All I want is a reasonable amount of information - not perfect information, not ultimate information, not 100% complete information. Just a reasonable amount, which is more than we have right now.

[Varodoc]

Lol at the people who claim they want to side with Sylvanas to be the villain.

Even though a villain would never remain loyal to someone who doesn't care about them, i.e. to someone who doesn't benefit them in any way.

And Sylvanas clearly doesn't benefit the player since she considers him nothing.

As usual Sylvanas fanboys forget/misinterpret the story crafted by Blizzard, so that's nothing new.

[VladlTutushkin]

Lol at the people who claim they want to side with Sylvanas to be the villain.

Even though a villain would never remain loyal to someone who doesn't care about them, i.e. to someone who doesn't benefit them in any way.

And Sylvanas clearly doesn't benefit the player since she considers him nothing.

As usual Sylvanas fanboys forget/misinterpret the story crafted by Blizzard, so that's nothing new.

Thats one of the things i dont understand about such situations.

Okay, you are an evil boi , real Big Bad here, sure.

But why would you side with someone who will almost certainly do a “you outlived your usefulness” backstab on you?

Like, its not even only WoW problem. Why in fiction villains have entire cohorts of “mid-level henches” who are not goons but not a top tier DESPITE the fact that they treat them like garbage, constantly leave them hanging, “force choke” them and so on. Its like giving your life away for no real reason. Its not even a well payed job usually.

[Varodoc]

Thats one of the things i dont understand about such situations.

Okay, you are an evil boi , real Big Bad here, sure.

But why would you side with someone who will almost certainly do a “you outlived your usefulness” backstab on you?

Like, its not even only WoW problem. Why in fiction villains have entire cohorts of “mid-level henches” who are not goons but not a top tier DESPITE the fact that they treat them like garbage, constantly leave them hanging, “force choke” them and so on. Its like giving your life away for no real reason. Its not even a well payed job usually.

Yes. That's why these people don't actually understand what a villain is.

All villains are self-serving individuals. They wouldn't follow someone who explicitly does not care about them. As Sylvanas made it clear, when she literally told her Loyalists that they are "N O T H I N G".

Even the Empire's troops get something out of it. Sure they can get force-choked by Vader but at least they get paid if they do their job well. The Loyalists don't even get paid by Sylvanas, if anything it's Sylvanas who gets paid via her Onlyfans.

[tommyhil622]

Yes. That's why these people don't actually understand what a villain is.

All villains are self-serving individuals. They wouldn't follow someone who explicitly does not care about them. As Sylvanas made it clear, when she literally told her Loyalists that they are "N O T H I N G".

Even the Empire's troops get something out of it. Sure they can get force-choked by Vader but at least they get paid if they do their job well. The Loyalists don't even get paid by Sylvanas, if anything it's Sylvanas who gets paid via her Onlyfans.

How is that different than let say Alleria?

[Varodoc]

How is that different than let say Alleria?

We're talking about villains here.

[tommyhil622]

We're talking about villains here.

Sure but some of the traits you were speaking of are shared.

[Ardenaso]

I don't mind supporting Sylvanas even if my main is an MHP. Some bandits and pirates supported her after all

[OwenBurton]

The question alone...

SHE. IS. TRYING. TO. KILL. ALL. OF. US

and destroy reality as a bonus.

And why? Because she feels that after all her crimes she deserved better then being send to hell, while gladly sending thousands of innocent Nightelves to exactly that fate.

Seriously... how would you ever justify supporting this? She is a monster. We kill monsters. It is that simple.

Sylvanas is attempting to remake reality, not destroy it entirely. And some female players seem to admire Sylvanas, something about a very strong and "independent" character and leader who suffered tremendous trauma, yet is now trying to forge her own destiny. That being said, I just don't know how they can end Sylvanas and her story in a way that satisfies everyone -- it is just not possible.