Lost Codex and Bellular Lore Interview. [Spoilers]

[Beatman]

You know that the Dreadlords pre-fel are just venthirs?

That's just headcanon.

[username993720]

You know that the Dreadlords pre-fel are just venthirs?

Yes. That's what i thought, too.
But, i believe they are given a different direction with Korthia.
Otherwise, they would have, probably, appeared in Revendreth.
Some people claim they resemble Zovaal, the Jailer, if you remove their horns, wings, claws and hooves.

[DemonHunter18]

Looks like you didn't really want to understand the argument.

The Titans were introduced to the lore at a point in time (2003) where we knew close to nothing about the Warcraft universe. It made sense to plant the seeds for things like Titans at the start because if you're going to have really powerful beings that shaped pretty much everything in the universe, you'd expect to find things that point to their existence.

The point isn't that adding something is inherently contrived (after all you have to start somewhere). The point is that adding a new primordial power when you've just demystified or killed all of the previous primordial/mythical powers (Sargeras, Titans in general, Demons, Old Gods etc.) is what makes it contrived. The First Ones weren't in the story until they were needed because as it turns out we're pretty much out of cosmic entities (except the Void Lords and whatever monstrosity they're going to turn Elune into).

The same thing could be said about the Jailer and pretty much all of the nu-Shadowlands. We've known about the Shadowlands for years now but we only find out there's a pantheon of death, covenants and that basically everything in the universe has been manipulated by this guy we've never even heard of the moment we step into the expansion. With other expansions we roughly knew what to expect because it was teased in some way or another. Hell, even the existence of Pandaria was teased all the way back in WC3 and Pandaria wasn't the be-all and end-all of Warcraft lore like Shadowlands is. That's the difference.

The more extraordinary/significant a reveal is, the bigger its build-up must be in order for it to work. With Shadowlands they went for the exact opposite route. They had no prior build-up and instead tried to leech off of already established things people are familiar with. The Scourge? Maldraxxus did that. The Lich King? The Jailer did that. Frostmourne? The Runecarver made that. Sargeras corruption by demons and everything resulting from that? Also the Jailer's plan.

well said.

if only I could make a signature out of all this.

[TheFirstOnes]

Yes. That's what i thought, too.
But, i believe they are given a different direction with Korthia.
Otherwise, they would have, probably, appeared in Revendreth.
Some people claim they resemble Zovaal, the Jailer, if you remove their horns, wings, claws and hooves.

In a way...they kinda are in Revendreth. Or, at the very least, their presence is. There is a Dreadlord relic in Revendreth, there's a place called the "spire of unseen guests", and the Dreadlords legit warned Sargeras of the Void Lords and their plans, which is exactly what goes with what the Enemy Infiltration books says in regards to the manipulation of the Titans.

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Looks like you didn't really want to understand the argument.

The Titans were introduced to the lore at a point in time (2003) where we knew close to nothing about the Warcraft universe. It made sense to plant the seeds for things like Titans at the start because if you're going to have really powerful beings that shaped pretty much everything in the universe, you'd expect to find things that point to their existence.

The point isn't that adding something is inherently contrived (after all you have to start somewhere). The point is that adding a new primordial power when you've just demystified or killed all of the previous primordial/mythical powers (Sargeras, Titans in general, Demons, Old Gods etc.) is what makes it contrived. The First Ones weren't in the story until they were needed because as it turns out we're pretty much out of cosmic entities (except the Void Lords and whatever monstrosity they're going to turn Elune into).

The same thing could be said about the Jailer and pretty much all of the nu-Shadowlands. We've known about the Shadowlands for years now but we only find out there's a pantheon of death, covenants and that basically everything in the universe has been manipulated by this guy we've never even heard of the moment we step into the expansion. With other expansions we roughly knew what to expect because it was teased in some way or another. Hell, even the existence of Pandaria was teased all the way back in WC3 and Pandaria wasn't the be-all and end-all of Warcraft lore like Shadowlands is. That's the difference.

The more extraordinary/significant a reveal is, the bigger its build-up must be in order for it to work. With Shadowlands they went for the exact opposite route. They had no prior build-up and instead tried to leech off of already established things people are familiar with. The Scourge? Maldraxxus did that. The Lich King? The Jailer did that. Frostmourne? The Runecarver made that. Sargeras corruption by demons and everything resulting from that? Also the Jailer's plan.

No. We knew nothing of the Warcraft Universe, even with the Titans and the Legion. The introduction of the Pantheon of Death and co serve as expansions of the Cosmic Chart that's been established in the Chronicle. We've also never really been to the Shadowlands either, btw. Just the Veil.

"Hell, even the existence of Pandaria was teased all the way back in WC3 and Pandaria wasn't the be-all and end-all of Warcraft lore like Shadowlands is." Shadowlands isn't be-all end-all lore though? It serves as the BEGINNING of the Cosmic Expansion of WoW.

"The point isn't that adding something is inherently contrived (after all you have to start somewhere). The point is that adding a new primordial power when you've demystified or killed all of the previous primordial/mythical powers"

Why? The Titans were never meant to be these omnipotent gods. Them being linked with other Cosmic Pantheons in a hierarchy actually helps their case tbh, especially since a lot of their shit can be apparently flawed/fucked over by opposing forces.

[username993720]

In a way...they kinda are in Revendreth. Or, at the very least, their presence is. There is a Dreadlord relic in Revendreth, there's a place called the "spire of unseen guests", and the Dreadlords legit warned Sargeras of the Void Lords and their plans, which is exactly what goes with what the Enemy Infiltration books says in regards to the manipulation of the Titans.

Yes, i know all of this.
I meant in action.
The question is are they former Venthyr, Stoneborn or something else?

[TheFirstOnes]

That's just headcanon.

It's not. It's backed up by lots of evidence, such as relics and shit located in Revendreth, Venthyr and Dreadlords using similar titles (Such as Vampiric, etc), the Dreadlords legit LOOK like Venthyr (Same skin tone, similar face structure, same ears, etc), Sire Denathrius looks similar to a Dreadlord and was once called the LORD OF DREAD, and their capitals are similar. The Dreadlords' capital is NATHreza, and Denathrius' castle is NATHria.

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Yes, i know all of this.
I meant in action.
The question is are they former Venthyr, Stoneborn or something else?

I assume they were Venthyr chosen by Denathrius to serve under the Jailer's cause, once the Jailer and Denathrius made their little secret pact. Would explain why there are lots of Dreadlords influences across the Shadowlands, as well as why the Dreadlords are "acting" as servants of other cosmic powers.

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They're not Stoneborn whatsoever.

[username993720]

I assume they were Venthyr chosen by Denathrius to serve under the Jailer's cause, once the Jailer and Denathrius made their little secret pact. Would explain why there are lots of Dreadlords influences across the Shadowlands, as well as why the Dreadlords are "acting" as servants of other cosmic powers.

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They're not Stoneborn whatsoever.

Why? Stoneborn, already, have wings and horns. But, okay...

The other question would be, if they are former Venthyr, how didn't Lothraxion's Lightforging disintegrate him to ash? as we know, Venthyr are, extremely, vulnerable to light. Does the Fel infusion, first, protects them? Because demons are susceptible to Light, as well.

[TheFirstOnes]

Why? Stoneborn, already, have wings and horns. But, okay...

The other question would be, if they are former Venthyr, how didn't Lothraxion's Lightforging disintegrate him to ash? as we know, Venthyr are, extremely, vulnerable to light. Does the Fel infusion, first, protects them? Because demons are susceptible to Light, as well.

Having Horns and Wings doesn't mean they're the same being. The Stoneborn also have an entirely different facial structure from the Dreadlords, and they don't have hooves. In contrast, the Venthyr have a similar facial structure, and Denathrius has horns + hooves. So, I would argue they're moreso Venthyr. Doesn't help that the Fel can also transform beings into demons. Look at the Eredar, for example.

"The other question would be, if they are former Venthyr, how didn't Lothraxion's Lightforging disintegrate him to ash?"

2 possible reasons:

A. Lothraxion was infused in the Light, and due to his Fel Amps, he was likely able to handle said infusion.

And B. The Dreadlords did their shit prior to the Light attacking Revendreth, which is HIGHLY possible, if we're to assume the Enemy Infiltration: Preface stuff happened before the Cosmic War.

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"The Dreadlords are not agents of the Jailer btw"

https://www.wowhead.com/news=321152/...with-shacknews

Question to Steve: You guys had a huge teaser in some of the Runecaver's memories of the Helm of Domination and Frostmourne having roots with the Jailer and his overall vision. Are we going to explore that in Chains of Domination, like perhaps what was controlling Arthas wasn't Ner'zul or his darkest desire, but maybe the Jailer himself?

Steve: "We will continue to explore that storyline because it was a very deliberate underlying tone of what was going on. We saw that Runecaver memory where the Jailer demanded that he make those items, those weapons of domination, and we saw the after effects of that - we saw what happened when they got to Azreoth, but there's a lot of connective tissue in between that we need to fill in. We've hinted at some of it, there was a book in Revendreth that gave some hints as to some nefarious villains that might have been involved in that plot. Chains of domination will continue that storyline."

OHHHH!!!! STEVE! THIS IS SOME WARCRAFT RIGHT HERE!!!! OHHH, GIMME THAT DREADLORD MASTER MANIPULATION PLOT! YESSIR! RELEASE THE INNER WC3 NERD WITHIN YOU, AND MAKE THE DREADLORDS THESE BADASS MIND FUCKERS! UNLIKE LEGION, WHERE THEY WERE PORTRAYED AS ABSOLUTE DUMBASSES!!!! OHHHHHH

This is some Warcraft! This is definitely some Warcraft right here! *Claps* OHHHHH!!! THAT IS SOME WARCRAFT!!!!!

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"She had to come to a choice, is she going to enforce the Jailer's will upon him as had been done to her in the past, perhaps, or is she going to choose a different path? And we get that answer in the chains of domination intro cinematic."

So...what? Sylvanas was forced into serving the Jailer? I mean, it kinda makes sense, especially considering he choice within the Edge of Night book was pretty fucking forced enough as it is, but still. Seems she might go against the Jailer by 9.1? Highly suspect she'll try and go against his wishes, and after the raid, we'll soon realize that the Jailer played 4-D chess with her, and used her as bait against the heroes instead, so that he could get his way, while Sylvanas lives and gets fucked by some manner in the process.

[Nerovar]

No. We knew nothing of the Warcraft Universe, even with the Titans and the Legion. The introduction of the Pantheon of Death and co serve as expansions of the Cosmic Chart that's been established in the Chronicle. We've also never really been to the Shadowlands either, btw. Just the Veil.

Well, the whole Veil thing is an invention that was introduced this expansion to reconcile the older mentions of the Shadowlands with the nu-Shadowlands without explicitly retconning too much stuff. Still doesn't make any sense. The nu-Shadowlands aren't even really compatible with the description we got in Chronicles (they are neither labyrinthine and dark nor inherently nightmarish). You also still have quests like in the DK Legion Class campaign where you directly send your Death Knights to collect various essences from souls of big lore characters (Putress, Daelin, Arugal etc.) inside the Shadowlands. There's also Salanar the Horseman who was chilling in the Shadowlands (the mission in which you call for him gives you an item that is literally called "Dust from the Shadowlands") from WotLK to Legion who uses the term interchangeably with "the Realm of Shadows" (which is where Death Knights also get their pony) though he should know the difference if these are apparently two different places since he's the one who sends us to harvest essences from souls of long dead people inside the Shadowlands (not the veil). And yes, those quests are canon since they are part of the DK Order Hall campaign and required for creating the new Horsemen.

"Hell, even the existence of Pandaria was teased all the way back in WC3 and Pandaria wasn't the be-all and end-all of Warcraft lore like Shadowlands is." Shadowlands isn't be-all end-all lore though? It serves as the BEGINNING of the Cosmic Expansion of WoW.

You're dodging the point. None of what we see in Shadowlands had any build-up despite its significance to the setting. Also what I mean by "be-all and end-all" is that the afterlife seems to kinda be a really big deal when it comes to the workings of this universe whereas a small continent like Pandaria is completely insignificant in the grand scheme of things.

"The point isn't that adding something is inherently contrived (after all you have to start somewhere). The point is that adding a new primordial power when you've demystified or killed all of the previous primordial/mythical powers"

Why? The Titans were never meant to be these omnipotent gods. Them being linked with other Cosmic Pantheons in a hierarchy actually helps their case tbh, especially since a lot of their shit can be apparently flawed/fucked over by opposing forces.

Apart from Elune the Titans were the closest thing WoW had to gods. Sure, they're not omnipotent but not every mythology needs omnipotent gods. Telling us out of nowhere after 20+ years of Warcraft lore that there are beings that possess similar or even greater power than the Titans but that somehow left no mark anywhere (except the current expansion ) after we just burned through most of the bad guys the Warcraft universe had to offer is simply uncompelling and frankly bad world building.

[TheFirstOnes]

"She believes the Jailer has a better plan for the forces of life and death"

lol to the people that think SL is still a Death only expansion.

"Saurfang and Varian would be great to revisit, but they already had heroic pivotal endings and they don't want to retread ground just for the sake of it. The influence of those characters is certainly something that is present in Shadowlands and influences the way Anduin deals with his circumstances, even if they don't show up physically."

Love how they're basically going to mind fuck Anduin this expac. The dude definitely needs a heavy hit on him. Cause while shit has happened to him in the past, he himself has never really experienced the true horrors of war, or anything life changing like that before.

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"You're dodging the point. None of what we see in Shadowlands had any build-up despite its significance to the setting. Also what I mean by "be-all and end-all" is that the afterlife seems to kinda be a really big deal when it comes to the workings of this universe whereas a small continent like Pandaria is completely insignificant in the grand scheme of things"

Yes it did. Wrath of the Lich King. Did you just forget that expansion existed to fit your false narrative? Or what? Did you also forget that WC3 existed? Or the Chronicle that literally set up the points required for Death to be introduced into the actual cosmic fold? Like, come on bro. What's this headcanon?

"Apart from Elune the Titans were the closest thing WoW had to gods. Sure, they're not omnipotent but not every mythology needs omnipotent gods. Telling us out of nowhere after 20+ years of Warcraft lore that there are beings that possess similar or even greater power than the Titans but that somehow left no mark anywhere (except the current expansion ) after we just burned through most of the bad guys the Warcraft universe had to offer is simply uncompelling and frankly bad world building."

Even in old lore, the Titans weren't considered to be all that powerful, since Sargeras in the old lore apparently blew tf up from the Well of Eternity's destruction, as well as the fact that it was presumed that if the Old Gods released, Sargeras himself would beg for their mercy, and that the Aspects would be the only things that could stop them. In current lore, we know that this shit is absolutely fucking dumb and totally not at all true, but still. Old Lore kinda downplayed the Titans.

Also, who's the say there aren't any First One relics within the Cosmos? Or, at the very least, within the cosmic realm of Order? We really haven't explored much of anything regarding our own reality, and we're just now exploring the Warcraft Cosmos in a more complete manner. And who's to say the Titans don't know about the First Ones? Why would they care to tell us about them at all? We're not important enough to know about them. Or, at the very least, we weren't that important in Legion.

The whole Shadowlands shit can be argued that nowadays, the Death Knights had access to entering the Veil or peering into it, but that's about it. Took Titan Keepers such as Odyn a fucking eyeball just to peer into the actual Shadowlands. Old lore, sure they entered it, but that's debatable, even back then. Not to mention it was heavily implied that the Shadowlands were in the Nether during old lore, which isn't even close to true now. I'd argue it was BS even back then, as well.

[huth]

It's not. It's backed up by lots of evidence, such as relics and shit located in Revendreth, Venthyr and Dreadlords using similar titles (Such as Vampiric, etc), the Dreadlords legit LOOK like Venthyr (Same skin tone, similar face structure, same ears, etc), Sire Denathrius looks similar to a Dreadlord and was once called the LORD OF DREAD, and their capitals are similar. The Dreadlords' capital is NATHreza, and Denathrius' castle is NATHria.

Not really. It's suggested they have similar origins and are somehow connected to Denathrius as well, but not necessarily the same. In fact, it would probably make their mission harder if they were detectable as clear denizens of Death.

So unless we get more information, them being Venthyr is just headcanon. They could be special Venthyr, but there isn't enough evidence to conclude that they are. They could be a seperate creation as well, Venthyr are hardly the only thing to come out of Revendreth. What we do know is that they reported to Denathrius directly or indirectly, potentially being subservient to the Jailer as well.

[TheFirstOnes]

Also, we definitely need omnipotent gods to explain just how forces like Light and Shadow came to be. Cause Light in itself is a factor that exists. It is a fundamental part of the Cosmos. And because it was there and everywhere, that can mean it was made by something. What it is we don't know (But we're assuming it's the First Ones, and I've already mentioned multiple times why I believe this to be the case).

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Not really. It's suggested they have similar origins and are somehow connected to Denathrius as well, but not necessarily the same. In fact, it would probably make their mission harder if they were detectable as clear denizens of Death.

So unless we get more information, them being Venthyr is just headcanon. They could be special Venthyr, but there isn't enough evidence to conclude that they are. They could be a seperate creation as well, Venthyr are hardly the only thing to come out of Revendreth. What we do know is that they reported to Denathrius directly or indirectly, potentially being subservient to the Jailer as well.

We already know that the Dreadlords were empowered by the Fel, which likely means they used their Fel bodies as both power amps, as well as disguises to make it less known that they were in fact Venthyr. This is my take on it, but I believe it works. The Unseen Ones (Which we are assuming to be the Dreadlords here) claimed that Fel infusion was a necessary process to carry out the Sires wishes. Not to mention that they also held a very high position within the Plane of Disorder (Which literally works for the Dreadlords, considering the Chronicle had them basically at the pinnacle of the Twisting Nether's demonic hierarchy, prior to Sargeras creating the Legion and joining the fold).

[huth]

Also, we definitely need omnipotent gods to explain just how forces like Light and Shadow came to be. Cause Light in itself is a factor that exists. It is a fundamental part of the Cosmos. And because it was there and everywhere, that can mean it was made by something. What it is we don't know (But we're assuming it's the First Ones, and I've already mentioned multiple times why I believe this to be the case).

That's a non-sequitur. Just because the Light was omnipresent doesn't mean there had to be an omnipotent being.

We already know that the Dreadlords were empowered by the Fel, which likely means they used their Fel bodies as both power amps, as well as disguises to make it less known that they were in fact Venthyr. This is my take on it, but I believe it works. The Unseen Ones (Which we are assuming to be the Dreadlords here) claimed that Fel infusion was a necessary process to carry out the Sires wishes. Not to mention that they also held a very high position within the Plane of Disorder (Which literally works for the Dreadlords, considering the Chronicle had them basically at the pinnacle of the Twisting Nether's demonic hierarchy, prior to Sargeras creating the Legion and joining the fold).

Some of them did, so they could integrate into Disorder. For the rest, that wasn't necessary. It also doesn't make the Nathrezim = Venthyr hypothesis any more or less likely, it is simply tangential to it.

A purposemade creation would be far more sensible than giving Venthyr a secondary task, especially since the "pure" Venthyr in particular have shown a tendency to rebellion if you try to interfere with their primary purpose.

What i could more believe is that Denathrius is in fact a Nathrezim himself, possibly a pre-fel one.

[TheFirstOnes]

"That's a non-sequitur. Just because the Light was omnipresent doesn't mean there had to be an omnipotent being."

Nothing states that the Light is omnipresent, just that it was always there prior to the Void (Which actually implies the Light didn't truly encompass everything, since Darkness followed, or at the very least the basis of Shadow was founded upon), but you're right in that there doesn't HAVE to be an omnipotent being. That however doesn't mean there's not. I've made multiple backed up theories on why the First Ones could be the creators of the entire Warcraft Cosmic Chart, and the forces was fundamentally hold it together (Such as Light and Shadow).

Regarding the Dreadlords, now:

"Some of them did, so they could integrate into Disorder. For the rest, that wasn't necessary." Presumably, but from what we know from the Chronicle and with Lothraxion, it's implied the Dreadlords kinda needed the Fel in order to infiltrate the other Cosmic Powers (Hence why you saw Demonic Dreadlords within the Void VIA Sargeras catching them in Chronicle, as well). And if the female Dreadlord possibility is true, then who knows if she'll be fel empowered or not.

"A purposemade creation would be far more sensible than giving Venthyr a secondary task, especially since the "pure"

Venthyr in particular have shown a tendency to rebellion if you try to interfere with their primary purpose." Just means different Venthyr were made with different mindsets at hand.

"It also doesn't make the Nathrezim = Venthyr hypothesis any more or less likely, it is simply tangential to it."

It actually can, if backed up enough by statements and lore implications, which I have talked about multiple times. I can even link them if you want me too. Why would there be Dreadlord artifacts/presences only found within the Maw and Revendreth? Pretty shady, if you ask me.

"What i could more believe is that Denathrius is in fact a Nathrezim himself, possibly a pre-fel one." Denathrius is of the Pantheon of Death, and everything regarding the Venthyr and the stoneborn were made based off his image. Why would he be similar to the Dreadlords if it's implied he's not only apart of a Cosmic Pantheon, but that he's also the first of all his kin (Such as the Venthyr and co)?

[Nerovar]

Yes it did. Wrath of the Lich King. Did you just forget that expansion existed to fit your false narrative? Or what? Did you also forget that WC3 existed? Or the Chronicle that literally set up the points required for Death to be introduced into the actual cosmic fold? Like, come on bro. What's this headcanon?

This is ludicrous. How did WotLK tease anything that would end up happening in the Shadowlands? Back then the Jailer and all this other nonsense wasn't even a wet dream inside Danuser's bald head. This is a literal brainrot tier argument.

Also as I already laid out in my previous post even in recent expansions like Legion the concept of the Shadowlands wasn't even compatible with what we see in the nu-Shadowlands. To claim that there was build-up for Shadowlands' story all the way back in WC3 when the very concept of the Shadowlands has been retconned to a ridiculous degree in the meantime is simply absurd.

Even in old lore, the Titans weren't considered to be all that powerful, since Sargeras in the old lore apparently blew tf up from the Well of Eternity's destruction, as well as the fact that it was presumed that if the Old Gods released, Sargeras himself would beg for their mercy, and that the Aspects would be the only things that could stop them. In current lore, we know that this shit is absolutely fucking dumb and totally not at all true, but still. Old Lore kinda downplayed the Titans.

This is completely irrelevant to the topic we're talking about but okay.

Also, who's the say there aren't any First One relics within the Cosmos? Or, at the very least, within the cosmic realm of Order? We really haven't explored much of anything regarding our own reality, and we're just now exploring the Warcraft Cosmos in a more complete manner. And who's to say the Titans don't know about the First Ones? Why would they care to tell us about them at all? We're not important enough to know about them. Or, at the very least, we weren't that important in Legion.

We weren't that important in Legion? We literally defeated corrupted Aggramar and trapped Sargeras.

The whole Shadowlands shit can be argued that nowadays, the Death Knights had access to entering the Veil or peering into it, but that's about it. Took Titan Keepers such as Odyn a fucking eyeball just to peer into the actual Shadowlands. Old lore, sure they entered it, but that's debatable, even back then. Not to mention it was heavily implied that the Shadowlands were in the Nether during old lore, which isn't even close to true now. I'd argue it was BS even back then, as well.

I have no idea what you're trying to tell me. I only wrote that bit about the old Shadowlands/veil to demonstrate that the entire concept of the nu-Shadowlands stands on very shaky ground and was basically retconned into existence. Up until the very latest expansion the Shadowlands were the Veil. This is reflected in the Legion quests I mentioned because they don't differentiate between the Realm of Shadows (grey ghost realm we know since vanilla) and the actual Shadowlands (where souls of the dead can be found) despite having reliable knowledge about the two.

[username993720]

Having Horns and Wings doesn't mean they're the same being. The Stoneborn also have an entirely different facial structure from the Dreadlords, and they don't have hooves. In contrast, the Venthyr have a similar facial structure, and Denathrius has horns + hooves. So, I would argue they're moreso Venthyr. Doesn't help that the Fel can also transform beings into demons. Look at the Eredar, for example.

"The other question would be, if they are former Venthyr, how didn't Lothraxion's Lightforging disintegrate him to ash?"

2 possible reasons:

A. Lothraxion was infused in the Light, and due to his Fel Amps, he was likely able to handle said infusion.

And B. The Dreadlords did their shit prior to the Light attacking Revendreth, which is HIGHLY possible, if we're to assume the Enemy Infiltration: Preface stuff happened before the Cosmic War.

Were they not susceptible to Light before it attacked their domain? I think that, as vampiric beings, they have always been vulnerable to the Light.
Are fel creatures not susceptible to the Light? Because Paladin abilities, like Exorcism, Holy Wrath and Turn Evil showed otherwise. Even the Lightforged racial Demonbane depicts so.

[huth]

"That's a non-sequitur. Just because the Light was omnipresent doesn't mean there had to be an omnipotent being."

Nothing states that the Light is omnipresent, just that it was always there prior to the Void (Which actually implies the Light didn't truly encompass everything, since Darkness followed, or at the very least the basis of Shadow was founded upon), but you're right in that there doesn't HAVE to be an omnipotent being. That however doesn't mean there's not. I've made multiple backed up theories on why the First Ones could be the creators of the entire Warcraft Cosmic Chart, and the forces was fundamentally hold it together (Such as Light and Shadow).

Actually, you did. Omnipresent is just latin for "everywhere". And while it's not impossible for such a being to exist, the non-sequitur comes in in that this does nothing to affect how likely its existence is. You're just randomly jumping from "light is everywhere" to "omnipresent being exists".

Regarding the Dreadlords, now:

"Some of them did, so they could integrate into Disorder. For the rest, that wasn't necessary." Presumably, but from what we know from the Chronicle and with Lothraxion, it's implied the Dreadlords kinda needed the Fel in order to infiltrate the other Cosmic Powers (Hence why you saw Demonic Dreadlords within the Void VIA Sargeras catching them in Chronicle, as well). And if the female Dreadlord possibility is true, then who knows if she'll be fel empowered or not.

"A purposemade creation would be far more sensible than giving Venthyr a secondary task, especially since the "pure"

Venthyr in particular have shown a tendency to rebellion if you try to interfere with their primary purpose." Just means different Venthyr were made with different mindsets at hand.

"It also doesn't make the Nathrezim = Venthyr hypothesis any more or less likely, it is simply tangential to it."

It actually can, if backed up enough by statements and lore implications, which I have talked about multiple times. I can even link them if you want me too. Why would there be Dreadlord artifacts/presences only found within the Maw and Revendreth? Pretty shady, if you ask me.

"What i could more believe is that Denathrius is in fact a Nathrezim himself, possibly a pre-fel one." Denathrius is of the Pantheon of Death, and everything regarding the Venthyr and the stoneborn were made based off his image. Why would he be similar to the Dreadlords if it's implied he's not only apart of a Cosmic Pantheon, but that he's also the first of all his kin (Such as the Venthyr and co)?

Same issue here. None of what you mention leads to the conclusion. You falling for the classic "correlation = causation" fallacy.

And don't quote like that, it just makes your posts harder to read.

[darkoms]

That's just headcanon.

Oh really? Is that why the letter mentions Sire? Obviously, the Ventilators turn to Denatrius and tell him that everything is going according to plan.

[TheFirstOnes]

This is ludicrous. How did WotLK tease anything that would end up happening in the Shadowlands? Back then the Jailer and all this other nonsense wasn't even a wet dream inside Danuser's bald head. This is a literal brainrot tier argument.

Also as I already laid out in my previous post even in recent expansions like Legion the concept of the Shadowlands wasn't even compatible with what we see in the nu-Shadowlands. To claim that there was build-up for Shadowlands' story all the way back in WC3 when the very concept of the Shadowlands has been retconned to a ridiculous degree in the meantime is simply absurd.


This is completely irrelevant to the topic we're talking about but okay.


We weren't that important in Legion? We literally defeated corrupted Aggramar and trapped Sargeras.


I have no idea what you're trying to tell me. I only wrote that bit about the old Shadowlands/veil to demonstrate that the entire concept of the nu-Shadowlands stands on very shaky ground and was basically retconned into existence. Up until the very latest expansion the Shadowlands were the Veil. This is reflected in the Legion quests I mentioned because they don't differentiate between the Realm of Shadows (grey ghost realm we know since vanilla) and the actual Shadowlands (where souls of the dead can be found) despite having reliable knowledge about the two.

1. What do you mean "no build up"? We've been hinted towards a higher power regarding Death for awhile now. And from what we've seen, the Legion's not really prone to necromancy so much, which is why the Lich King plot feels so unrealistic, imo. The most we got regarding them and Souls are the Soul Engines, and that's about it. Something never really added up, so of course we'd learn more to it.

2. How is what I said irrelevant? I'm discussing why the Titan's were never the gods you claimed them to be.

3. We really weren't. At MOST we defeated Aggramar's Avatar and saved the Titan's spirits, but that's it (Outside of beating Argus, which required the Titan Spirits to aid us). And no, we never trapped Sargeras. The Titans and Argus did.

4. We knew about some knowledge regarding the Shadowlands, but that's it. The Death Knights only explained limited knowledge of it, really. We never really got to experience the Shadowlands first hand, nor have we really seen the true nature of what the Shadowlands is. We've seen off brands, or aspects of it (Such as the Halls of Valor and Hellheim, which were inspired by the Shadowlands), but that's it. Don't see how any of this is a retcon.

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Were they not susceptible to Light before it attacked their domain? I think that, as vampiric beings, they have always been vulnerable to the Light.
Are fel creatures not susceptible to the Light? Because Paladin abilities, like Exorcism, Holy Wrath and Turn Evil showed otherwise. Even the Lightforged racial Demonbane depicts so.

Light isn't really all that effective against every Demon. Not unless they're either able to overpower it, or become one with it (Which is what Lothraxion did, when he was defeated by and converted to the Army of the Light). Reminder that the Demons were basically dismantling the Light, and guys like Illidan could easily dismantle Prime Naaru with Fel Magics. Light is not really a good counter for Fel. You could argue this same logic for Arcane, Death, and Void energies as well.

Regarding the Venthyr, what I said was more so an assumption, since while the light that was used is the same as Azeroth's, it's possible that the rage of the Light can change its way of affection, so that it only affects the Venthyr, since other beings of the Shadowlands are able to walk around it just fine (As seen by Kleia and Palegos in Revendreth). Or maybe not. Maybe they were always vulnerable to the Light. That actually only helps the Venthyr case more imo, since that's why they went to the Fel and Void, and it's also why Lothraxion had to convert himself to the Light in order to gain a proper advantage.

[Zandalariprelate]

So Yrel is returning to take command of the Alliance? Neat hope she wreaks a lot of havoc