{TV} The Falcon and the Winter Soldier

[Ophenia]

None of that is "nerfing" anyone
Vision took a spear in the chest from an ambush.

The whole Vision thing has always been weird to me. I got it, he got pierced through with a very special weapon. But then, instead of trying to split the Stone from Vision in Wakanda, couldn't they like... repair him ? They have infinite vibranium and insane technology, sure they could have done the same thing that was initially done by a normal pod a few years before.

All they had to do was to fully repair (and upgrade...) him and Infinity War was over

[Egomaniac]

I mean, I definitely think otherwise. And look at what they did with the Hulk. In one movie he “refused” to come out (convenient when you have an army that needs defeating), then in another we get friendly Hulk that signs autographs and takes pictures with fans?

The fuck lol?

Loki: I have an army
Ironman: We have the Hulk

*another army shows up*

Marvel: Oh, wait, actually, the Hulk is going through some emotional trauma and working on self-discovery... he won’t be coming out to play

Well, maybe you should stop watching these shows then.

- - - Updated - - -

I mean, if you accept that as “character development” and are happy with absent and kid-friendly Hulk, cool.... but I think most Hulk fans found it terrible and completely laughable to do to the character.

Non-angry Hulk... give me a damn break

Hilarious, you call yourself a Hulk fan now....

[Sorrowseer]

Ugh, and that speech Sam made.... holy hell... it was terrible.

I was so close to just stopping watching then, I just continued for completeness, spite watching, as it was just so erg, bad is an understatement, childish, naive, wrong, I am sure someone will jump in and expound about how right it was and it could not have been better, for me it was just poor understanding of reality.

[Ophenia]

The comics and movies vastly differ. “Professor” Hulk had actual character development, slowly becoming that from two personalities merged. He didn’t just suddenly become that like he did in the movies, where he was signing autographs an shit with kids.

I really think they could have gone a way more interesting route with Hulk. They could have explained that the Snap worked weirdly for him, basically "snapping" Hulk's personality but not Banner, just for the unsnap bringing back a fully-angry Hulk ready to smash everything.

At least that could have worked to develop a bit the Hulk/Banner relationship at the beginning of endgame. Instead of going the route of Banner casually stating "Hulk ? Yeah I erased his consciousness rofl, ya want autograph kids ?"

[Egomaniac]

The comics and movies vastly differ. “Professor” Hulk had actual character development, slowly becoming that from two personalities merged. He didn’t just suddenly become that like he did in the movies, where he was signing autographs an shit with kids.

There's a 5 year gap in there you know...

[rogueMatthias]

I can't help but wonder if the whole scene earlier in the season with Karli blowing up the people was some last minute addition to make them more of a threat.

That one scene just doesn't make anything else work - Like how you're meant to feel sympathy for the guy getting killled by Walker, Sam trying to talk down Karli earlier in the season, Karli's death and especially Falcons whole speech at the end trying to paint the Flagsmashers as somewhat noble.

As soon as they went full-on terrorist and killed civilians for no reason i'm baffled how they were still trying to portray them as well meaning but misguided noble souls for a good cause, and thought that would land with the audience. They're fucking terrorists FFS. Maybe the cut global-pandemic theory would have worked too and given them a greater cause and understandable urgency - without that, their "noble cause" is basically just international squatters rights.

If the whole season was Sam tryiing to connect with them and reach them BEFORE they went into full on terrorism (then Walkers violence pushing them over the edge at the end) it would have worked so much better and been a much stronger arc for Sam. Sam speaking up for them and giving a lecture might not have been so on-the-nose if he wasn't basically excusing terrorism. Even the Powerbroker shooting Karli to cover her own ass would have been a bigger thing.. if Karli wasn't a full on terrorist that had needlessly killed people.

[Egomaniac]

The whole Vision thing has always been weird to me. I got it, he got pierced through with a very special weapon. But then, instead of trying to split the Stone from Vision in Wakanda, couldn't they like... repair him ? They have infinite vibranium and insane technology, sure they could have done the same thing that was initially done by a normal pod a few years before.

All they had to do was to fully repair (and upgrade...) him and Infinity War was over

I'm not following you here.

I don't see how upgrading vision would solve anything....Thanos would still have gotten the stone. Vibranium didn't exactly help Vision when Thanos crushed his head to pull out the mind stone. Wakanda's "insane tech" doesn't really compare.

[Syegfryed]

Thor being fat didn't make him any less powerful.

Thor with just stormbreaker fuck thanos up with all the infinite stones.

Thor with stormbreaker, mjolnir, Cap america and others got fucked up by Thanos with not a single infinite stone

Hilarious, you call yourself a Hulk fan now....

right, professor hulk is a thing, Bruce and hulk merged in one like world war hulk is also a thing

but burn crisp arm hulk? rly? people cannot defend that.

[Endus]

but burn crisp arm hulk? rly? people cannot defend that.

Why not?

He tried to use the Infinity Stones. They have enough power to literally unmake and remake the entire universe. But burning Hulk's arm and hampering his regeneration is a step too far?

Come on.

[rogueMatthias]

Thor with just stormbreaker fuck thanos up with all the infinite stones.

Thor with stormbreaker, mjolnir, Cap america and others got fucked up by Thanos with not a single infinite stone



right, professor hulk is a thing, Bruce and hulk merged in one like world war hulk is also a thing

but burn crisp arm hulk? rly? people cannot defend that.

I don't really mind some of the story decisions, but Banner being the comic relief is what I think's indefensible.

TBH Hulks overall arc in general in the movies isn't great. He went from being a force that everyone was genuinely terrified of at the start of Avengers, to becoming the slapstick comic relief. It worked somewhat in Rangarok as that was all comedy, but I was just cringeing whenever Banner was on screen in Infinity War & Endgame.

[Florena]

They could have handled Endgame hulk better. That's a lot of character development to just happen off screen. And prior to this, especially in Ragnarok, the Hulk was basically an entirely separate person. This isn't a fusion of Banner and hulk it's just Banner with Hulk's strength. I like Banner in Endgame but it feels rather jarring to see him like that, and the complete absence of Hulk's personality is weird.

I have no trouble at all with the infinity stones burning his arm and doing permanent damage. They're the infinity stones, they can rewrite the universe, wipe out trillions of lives in the blink of an eye, reshape reality, rewind time, destroy planets.

It's not like Hulk's arm was burned by a grease fire in a diner or something.

[Ophenia]

I'm not following you here.

I don't see how upgrading vision would solve anything....Thanos would still have gotten the stone. Vibranium didn't exactly help Vision when Thanos crushed his head to pull out the mind stone. Wakanda's "insane tech" doesn't really compare.

Well, the wound is what made Vision useless. For all we know, 100% Vision could have phased out into the Sun and Thanos would have never found the Stone. Also he would've been able to defend himself. Not saying he would win, but he could have greatly helped the Avengers, who would have been a lot stronger with Vision on their side, instead of having to babysit Vision the whole time.

Additionally, having Vision taking that much time to have the Stone split from his skull, is also what made Wanda AFK for most of the Wakanda battle.

Wakanda's tech is incredible (in MCU, dunno about comics), obviously they could have repaired Vision. The upgrade part is probably fan fiction from my side.

---

I think we have a bit deviated from the topic here

[Illusions]

But realistically, we've only seen Bucky hanging out with Sam's family a couple of times.

I love found family as a trope, but it takes more than a couple good days for that kind of dynamic to exist. I'm not arguing Bucky can't reach that level with Sam's family, I'm arguing two things;

A> we don't see that kind of dynamic, in the show. I've been as close as that with the families of multiple friends. Closer, really; I've had friends stay with us for a couple months, and stayed with a friend's family for a month myself, under various circumstances. Those situations are what I'd say qualify, and we only really see Bucky hanging out for a couple specific family days, in the show. I'm not opposed to the potential, just not seeing it in the show.

B> Found family wouldn't settle Bucky's issues. He doesn't have much of a support network, and Sam and his family could provide that, but that's a base to build from, not a fix for Bucky's lack of self-identity. He's scrubbed the legacy of the Winter Soldier out, but he hasn't built anything new in its place.

I think what Marvel tends to do is having the viewer assume conversations have taken place and time passes. We were meant to assume that Steve and Bucky had actually talked for lengths in Endgame and whatnot, but whether because of time constraints or poor decisions, they didn't show it. The dynamic can very well exist because they could've hanged out already more, especially if Bucky's finding Sam's family to be more comfortable than his own etcetera - naturally they'd grow much closer due to the frequency of visits or whatnot.

I think that answers your point A, though I do agree that I would've liked to see more of that interaction. However, it's a short mini-series anyway, I suppose to actually get these situations you have to rely on your own imagination (or fanfics lol).

B> I don't think Bucky was even meant to have his issues resolved, and I don't think that was attempted either. Perhaps it'll be dissected further in the new Captain America movie (it's not a false rumour that it's happening, right?) - though Bucky was a side-character in those as well. I'm still angry over how Endgame ended for Steve and Bucky's arc (where people had no problems saying 'oh they just talked off-screen ha ha' and now complain about it here), so I guess it's up in the air in the end.

Either way, he has a foundation now and it's up to him to rebuild himself. I think the show was more of a journey for him to even get to a foundation, and now moving forwards to other movies he can start the self-identity journey, y'know?

[tyrlaan]

I don’t know what to tell you if you actually think it was character development and not Marvel trying to nerf the Hulk because it could make their story more challenging to tell due to his power-level.

You can simply just not like something and don't need to try to defend your dislike with a logical contortion to demonstrate people that like the thing you dislike are wrong.

[Svifnymr]

They could have handled Endgame hulk better. That's a lot of character development to just happen off screen. And prior to this, especially in Ragnarok, the Hulk was basically an entirely separate person. This isn't a fusion of Banner and hulk it's just Banner with Hulk's strength. I like Banner in Endgame but it feels rather jarring to see him like that, and the complete absence of Hulk's personality is weird.

I think the semantic argument comes down to this. Character development happens on screen for many folks. In Endgame, they changed his character to something different, but many won't consider it actual character development because none of it "happened". It wasn't really explained/ referenced much at all. It was also odd to me since there is no Hulk anymore, just Banner in Hulks body, and Banner doesn't even get angry. Not sure if he can swap between forms, since he's just hanging out in a diner in Hulk form. A lot of it might have to do with Hulks movie rights, but it was still just odd.

It's also why I didn't care for the 5 year time jump moving forward, because they'll address it sometimes and not others. Sometimes it'll be a core conflict, but other times it's just a background thing that they can safely ignore because all the kids got snapped together or whatever.

[ohiostate124]

I liked it because I like the MCU but when I think about it, the show just really wasn’t that good. Especially the Karli and the Flagsmashers. They were terrible.

[Endus]

I think the semantic argument comes down to this. Character development happens on screen for many folks. In Endgame, they changed his character to something different, but many won't consider it actual character development because none of it "happened". It wasn't really explained/ referenced much at all. It was also odd to me since there is no Hulk anymore, just Banner in Hulks body, and Banner doesn't even get angry. Not sure if he can swap between forms, since he's just hanging out in a diner in Hulk form. A lot of it might have to do with Hulks movie rights, but it was still just odd.

Part of the problem with Hulk, specifically, is that Marvel doesn't wholesale own the rights to the character. That's why we haven't gotten an MCU film for Hulk since the original film with Ed Norton as Banner (which, yes, is part of the MCU). It's why that one film isn't available for streaming on Disney+, when the rest of the MCU is.

Disney and Marvel's hands are kind of tied on the issue.

[eschatological]

That one scene just doesn't make anything else work - Like how you're meant to feel sympathy for the guy getting killled by Walker, Sam trying to talk down Karli earlier in the season, Karli's death and especially Falcons whole speech at the end trying to paint the Flagsmashers as somewhat noble.

As soon as they went full-on terrorist and killed civilians for no reason i'm baffled how they were still trying to portray them as well meaning but misguided noble souls for a good cause, and thought that would land with the audience. They're fucking terrorists FFS. Maybe the cut global-pandemic theory would have worked too and given them a greater cause and understandable urgency - without that, their "noble cause" is basically just international squatters rights.

If the whole season was Sam tryiing to connect with them and reach them BEFORE they went into full on terrorism (then Walkers violence pushing them over the edge at the end) it would have worked so much better and been a much stronger arc for Sam. Sam speaking up for them and giving a lecture might not have been so on-the-nose if he wasn't basically excusing terrorism. Even the Powerbroker shooting Karli to cover her own ass would have been a bigger thing.. if Karli wasn't a full on terrorist that had needlessly killed people.

For one, Sam references her killing these people in the next episode, so I don't think it's a dropped in scene. It was at least planned out somewhat.

For a second thing, the GRC has its own police force, which you see earlier in the episode, which does raids and knocks down doors like fucking SWAT or something. My assumption on the first viewing that these were the people she killed, members of the police force guarding the warehouse. I think that's fairly reasonable since when they were scouting it before the job it looked to be heavily guarded and secure. The question of whether these are "innocent" people is a question that Karli in particular wants to raise. I think if you're American and ever happen to live overseas, you'll start to see how people view people we call terrorists. I lived in Namibia from 2004-2006 (after 9/11 but before OBL was killed), and they considered Osama bin Laden to be a freedom fighter and a hero, precisely because he defied America. And that was all related to Namibia's own independence struggle from apartheid South Africa, whom the U.S. supported wholeheartedly. It wasn't about Islam (the country is vastly Christian) or communism (they were close with Russia because Russia supported their independence during the Cold War). It was about perspective - namely their perspective that the U.S. were the bad guys. Keep in mind, Falcon starts this series by literally killing like a dozen people, which we (and he) are okay with because we've decided they're criminals (because they objectively are), but more importantly, because they're not working in America's interests (which is the deciding factor, since we work with criminals all the time).

The whole point is that what we label terrorists, others see as freedom fighters and guerilla soldiers. Sam is trying to draw that connection by putting in "thug" as a label people use, right after "terrorist," and is sympathetic because that is the black experience in America - being labeled as other and criminal. The speech wasn't well executed, narratively, imo, but it makes sense with the theme. What doesn't make sense is how he treats specific Flag-Smashers, namely Karli, who's gone way past the Robin Hood mentality others are attributing to the Flag-Smashers. It would be like taking a Crip who has murdered people to make a point about his turf, and say "Don't call this guy a "thug," it's dehumanizing." Yeah, sure, it's dehumanizing - but the dude is still a murderer and not a good person - like Karli.

Weirdly, there is a huge dissonance between the Flag-Smashers themselves. They take multiple scenes throughout this season to show many of the Flag-Smashers are uncomfortable with Karli's methods. But then they just follow her blindly in the heat of the moment and don't push back against her in meaningful moments, like in combat when she's lighting politicians on fire or saying "Hey let's kill Captain America." It's odd to me how none of that discomfort actually ended up meaning anything in the story - no fracturing of the organization or anything, etc. If it had, then Sam's speech would have made much more sense - because he'd be talking about the "peaceful" faction of the Flag-Smashers.

[Xilurm]

I mean, I definitely think otherwise. And look at what they did with the Hulk. In one movie he “refused” to come out (convenient when you have an army that needs defeating), then in another we get friendly Hulk that signs autographs and takes pictures with fans?

The fuck lol?

Loki: I have an army
Ironman: We have the Hulk

*another army shows up*

Marvel: Oh, wait, actually, the Hulk is going through some emotional trauma and working on self-discovery... he won’t be coming out to play

This is the single worst thing about Infinity War that I hated even though I loved the movie. After all this time it still annoys me. It makes me think they couldn't figure how to write the movie around the Hulk existing.

[Endus]

This is the single worst thing about Infinity War that I hated even though I loved the movie. After all this time it still annoys me. It makes me think they couldn't figure how to write the movie around the Hulk existing.

Hulk isn't even strong enough to take on Thanos 1v1. He wasn't an unbalancing factor and I really don't know where you're getting that idea.