Why is Sire so hard even for "AOTC" groups?

[anon5123]

I got my AOTC a few weeks ago in a guild run, and I have not killed Sire a single time since then. I always join "AOTC only" groups, and I even check the other people myself, it's almost always a full group of 10/10H......and yet we just wipe endlessly in phase 3 every time, never getting the boss below 10% even.

What's the deal?

[Squigglyo]

I got my AOTC a few weeks ago in a guild run, and I have not killed Sire a single time since then. I always join "AOTC only" groups, and I even check the other people myself, it's almost always a full group of 10/10H......and yet we just wipe endlessly in phase 3 every time, never getting the boss below 10% even.

What's the deal?

I would wager most people who have AOTC that still pug sire, got it in a group that didnt need them. Effectively being carried with a loose idea of what to do.

Get an entire group of them together and theres not enough 'good' people to carry the group.



I got mine in a PUG, but it was a heavily vetted group that looked at logs.

Simply having AOTC just means you were there for the kill, not that you know how to kill it.

[Jonnusthegreat]

I would wager most people who have AOTC that still pug sire, got it in a group that didnt need them. Effectively being carried with a loose idea of what to do.

Get an entire group of them together and theres not enough 'good' people to carry the group.



I got mine in a PUG, but it was a heavily vetted group that looked at logs.

Simply having AOTC just means you were there for the kill, not that you know how to kill it.

Lol "Most people got it in pugs and were carried." "I got mine in a pug."

[vsb]

Because this boss is hard and overtuned. I'm playing in a guild where almost everyone has 220 ilvl and we have 4 mythic progress. We're stomping over our mythic farm bosses. Yet Sire often causes plenty of wipes until everything aligns perfectly.

To have a consistent pug kills, you need to get people, who are:

1. Know tactics (achievement + multiple kills).
2. Have gear (220+).
3. Know how to utilize that gear (logs).

Even with this setup you're likely to experience few wipes. Also I suggest you to remove those who fail even once, you can't afford to carry on this boss, not with PuG anyway.

Another issue on this boss is that you need to adjust your tactics with high gear, for example your phase 1 will be faster. Many PuG raid leaders are not flexible enough for this.

[Kilpi]

Lol "Most people got it in pugs and were carried."

Not even remotely what he said. But good try.

[Squigglyo]

Lol "Most people got it in pugs and were carried." "I got mine in a pug."

I mean yeh, those are some of the words I used.

Wasnt really meant to be a puzzle to solve though, the correct order/sequence was infact the one I typed initially.

[GnomeEU]

You can buy sire pretty cheap now. 50k.
So I guess many people are boosted?

But on my main, druid.
I can pug and kill sire every week. Might take 3 groups, but that's the usual luck with pugs.

If you're not the one holding the group back then a kill should be no problem in a pug.

[Gref]

Just yesterday we had our 3rd kill on sire as a guild. We have some new people as well but it takes a lot of practice I think. Some times massacres can be so easy then the next feels totally difficult. Pushing the boss to %40hp before the 3rd set of cabals can be a problem form time to time. last phase if soaks are not placed properly it makes it difficult for melee to dps while you have aoe inc damage. It is a complex fight and it is still difficult even on our 3rd kill. Coordination and verbal prompts are kinda necessary.

[exochaft]

If you're wiping in the last phase, it's usually due to soaking and/or the positioning of the soaks with respect to the boss... assuming you're not dying to the platform being full of red (aka soft enrage).

The problem with pugs is that everyone has done it a certain way, and everyone's way is the correct one compared to everyone else's method. I've seen pugs where 3-4 people are yelling at each other over positioning that honestly doesn't matter as long as everyone is on the same page. Kind of like in P1: some groups don't care if you cross the soak beams, others will kick you immediately if you don't uncross the beams. Either way works just fine, you just have to all be on the same page. The last phase in particular everyone needs to be on the same page, otherwise you get orb soaks in odd spots where they conflict with other mechanics or are deadly/can't be soaked. In general, it's a fight where everyone needs some idea of what's going on if they don't want to screw over the group, as pushing the boss at the wrong times, killing adds at the wrong time, dropping mechanics in bad spots, etc. can easily lead to a wipe.

[Malix Farwin]

I would wager most people who have AOTC that still pug sire, got it in a group that didnt need them. Effectively being carried with a loose idea of what to do.

Get an entire group of them together and theres not enough 'good' people to carry the group.



I got mine in a PUG, but it was a heavily vetted group that looked at logs.

Simply having AOTC just means you were there for the kill, not that you know how to kill it.

What you are saying is implying that most people who are 10/10 don't deserve it which i disagree with. Statistically for the scenario that you are suggesting to play it would only be feasible if a majority of AOTC got carried which is A. kinda an oxymoron within itself and B. would prolly still mean that the fight is overtuned in some way.

Do i personally have a problem with the fight? not really. No problems clearing it every week with an average pug group without having to go through the extremes of "heavily vetting" players.

[LedZeppelin]

Because this boss is hard and overtuned. I'm playing in a guild where almost everyone has 220 ilvl and we have 4 mythic progress. We're stomping over our mythic farm bosses. Yet Sire often causes plenty of wipes until everything aligns perfectly.

To have a consistent pug kills, you need to get people, who are:

1. Know tactics (achievement + multiple kills).
2. Have gear (220+).
3. Know how to utilize that gear (logs).

Even with this setup you're likely to experience few wipes. Also I suggest you to remove those who fail even once, you can't afford to carry on this boss, not with PuG anyway.

Another issue on this boss is that you need to adjust your tactics with high gear, for example your phase 1 will be faster. Many PuG raid leaders are not flexible enough for this.

hahahahahahhaahah

[kamuimac]

I got my AOTC a few weeks ago in a guild run, and I have not killed Sire a single time since then. I always join "AOTC only" groups, and I even check the other people myself, it's almost always a full group of 10/10H......and yet we just wipe endlessly in phase 3 every time, never getting the boss below 10% even.

What's the deal?

for the same reason last 3 bosses are very hard for most of people who already killed them . because they have way to much personal responsibility . and players are not good with it. so what if half of your raid plays perfecly - when other doesnt - 1 fuck up and you can usually call wipe.

[kamuimac]

What you are saying is implying that most people who are 10/10 don't deserve it which i disagree with. Statistically for the scenario that you are suggesting to play it would only be feasible if a majority of AOTC got carried which is A. kinda an oxymoron within itself and B. would prolly still mean that the fight is overtuned in some way.

Do i personally have a problem with the fight? not really. No problems clearing it every week with an average pug group without having to go through the extremes of "heavily vetting" players.

its not about not deserving this but a lot of guilds/people got those kills due to sheer luck . somebody who constantly failed on mechanics this one singular time didnt fuck up so they killed it. but on rekill the same person keeps fucking up

and what is most important - you have no TF to carry your group this expansion . so HC is technically harder for a lot of groups then many mythic bosses in Legion BFA.

i see this in my casual HC guild - we are progressing Sire and people are super frustrated - because so what if they have more then half of gear on 220-226 from m+ when its the mechanics what keeps killing us - and no amount of gear will help with thing like : fucked up chains on Sluge , standing in stuff/not soaking properly on generals / many mechanics on Denathrius .

[Dald]

I was in an LFR Sire and the tanks kept messing up and dying. Called them out and they both linked their AOTC, which clearly ment nothing as they kept screwing up a damned LFR fight.

Lots of paid achievements out there.

[Nynax]

What you are saying is implying that most people who are 10/10 don't deserve it which i disagree with. Statistically for the scenario that you are suggesting to play it would only be feasible if a majority of AOTC got carried which is A. kinda an oxymoron within itself and B. would prolly still mean that the fight is overtuned in some way.

Do i personally have a problem with the fight? not really. No problems clearing it every week with an average pug group without having to go through the extremes of "heavily vetting" players.

Not necessarily. He is saying that out of all the people with AOTC, the people that bother to pug are likely not key members of their raids. So his example excludes everyone with with AOTC that only raids within their guild groups. This would exclude a lot of guild masters, raid leaders, raid loggers, etc. Leaving the pug pool to be people that cannot dedicate to schedule raid times or people with enough extra time to join pugs with alts or on off weeks.

[Merlunie]

This question is essentially “why do people with AOTC still suck?”.

The answer is because my community and many others sell these spots for cheap as shit. Then those people go into pugs and drag ass.

That being said I pugged on my Alt and vetted the group and we killed it in two pulls. Idk bad players will always be bad. Kick the dead weight and win the game.

[lordjust]

P3 needs some communication because of the overlap of mechanics. First time you get the balls to soak overlaps with his destruction thing where you need to go away. Either you place the balls near the boss to instantly soak them and pull def cds to survive the destruction thing or you place them further away, with some people to instantly soak them which means you'll have a dps loss. Next set of balls spawn instantly one after another so the whole raid need to soak them quickly which again is a dps loss. After that it's just a dps race.

That's what kills most groups I've seen. Poeple don't soak the first set of balls fast enough and die to the explosion because they didn't use a def cd or they die to the seconds set of balls and enough people are dead so that you don't have enough dps to kill him.

I don't think it's too hard but p3 is very melee unfriendly because you have to run away from the boss to soak or spawn balls and run back to the boss, so you have a big dps loss. It gets a lot easier if you have the least amount of melee as possible. If I see a pug with 6-7 melee I know they won't kill sire because they won't have the necessary dps in p3

[facefist]

Lol "Most people got it in pugs and were carried." "I got mine in a pug."

Lol at your ability to read

On-topic: I think the biggest reason is that those who pug it, are generally below average players who have AOTC. So the pug consists of people with AOTC, but it lacks the carrying forces. If a guild has only 10/10 hc and a few mythic bosses it probably has a huge variance in terms of player skill.

And then there are people who were boosted for money and got no idea how to play, but those are easy to spot and kick.

[Kalontas]

I got mine in a PUG, but it was a heavily vetted group that looked at logs.

Jeeze, raiding sounds dreadful. Why would you willingly subject yourself to something like this?
I play video games to have fun, not to experience a "job interview" again.

[Squigglyo]

Jeeze, raiding sounds dreadful. Why would you willingly subject yourself to something like this?
I play video games to have fun, not to experience a "job interview" again.

Because some of the fun is gated behind experience/skill.

Killing the boss is fun.
What isnt fun is wiping on it 100 times. Thus you need to prove your exp/skill to play in that particular part of the game.