Denmark to Quota Non-Westerners in Neighborhoods

[eschatological]

I agree with what you're saying principially but I think it doesn't apply to this situation. The US is a completely different story. It's a melting pot. It doesn't even have an official language. Also, the US history is carrying all the unresolved colonial, conquerial and slavery baggage that makes these issues all the more complicated and sensitive.

Denmark is a different story. It's pretty tight knit, it's culture is very "hobbiton-like". Strangers need to fit in.

The problem is that some immigrants personally, and some groups of immigrants in general don't want to fit in. They're mentally stuck in their own country and all they want is the Danish wages, they don't even bother to learn the language properly and dude disencourage their kids from learning it well and finding friends and partners outside their community.

I'm not saying this policy is perfect but I agree this is a real and important problem and should be explicitly addressed. For example maybe it shouldn't be based on "western origin" but non-EU or something more objectively defined.

Oh, I'm sorry, I didn't realize Europe didn't have problems with "unresolved colonial, conquerial and slavery baggage," especially in a place like the Middle East. Maybe Denmark isn't directly implemented in much of that, but that is the situation these people are fleeing from, to Europe.

And why does an immigrant have to "fit in" in a forced way? Like I said, almost all immigrants are integrated within a few generations - it's natural, and it preserves their home culture, but no matter how insular their neighborhoods are, their kids are more integrated. My uncle immigrated to Germany in the 70s, and all his kids speak fluent German and consider themselves German. Same with my British cousins. Like I said, I'm American, and I'm literally a FIRST GENERATION immigrant, as is my sister (though our parents very much focused on assimilating, much to our detriment, imo, refusing to speak anything but English in the house).

[eschatological]

i'm russian born in estonia... we kept our culture despite the hostility to us in estonia... i've lived in sweden since roughly 13 years back now, still kept our culture... i speak 4 languages because of how i grow up...

13 years ago? How old were you when you got there? And if/when you have kids - do you think they'll consider themselves more Swedish or Estonian/Russian?

The point is - forced integration isn't necessary, because it happens naturally by the pure virtue of living somewhere else. I know no Indian immigrant (and I know tons of them) whose kids aren't *very* American. Hell, my cousin has been here 3 years on a work visa and his 3 girls (ages 9, 6, and 3) are already painfully American, constantly plugged into TikTok and Minecraft and all that.

So you shouldn't begrudge people trying to preserve their culture in their household or even their neighborhoods when they will eventually be integrated. I *want* and *regret* that my parents didn't see that as important in our household, because their goal (for me to be as American as possible to "fit in") was never achievable because of...you guessed it, racist nativists who deem me not a "real American," even though my entire schooling was here, I speak English and English only, with no accent outside of the Rust Belt accent of growing up in Buffalo NY.

[Themius]

I'm not talking about cultures, I'm talking about societies. You can still be Chinese, live your life in a Chinese way and teach your children Chinese traditions in Denmark. You're just not allowed to have so many Chinese people in one area that they can completely isolate themselves from the rest of society and build a Chinese enclave.

Care to explain how enclave are a bad thing? "oh no there are too many Chinese, split them up forcibly!!!"

[ati87]

Oh, I'm sorry, I didn't realize Europe didn't have problems with "unresolved colonial, conquerial and slavery baggage," especially in a place like the Middle East. Maybe Denmark isn't directly implemented in much of that, but that is the situation these people are fleeing from, to Europe.

And why does an immigrant have to "fit in" in a forced way? Like I said, almost all immigrants are integrated within a few generations - it's natural, and it preserves their home culture, but no matter how insular their neighborhoods are, their kids are more integrated. My uncle immigrated to Germany in the 70s, and all his kids speak fluent German and consider themselves German. Same with my British cousins. Like I said, I'm American, and I'm literally a FIRST GENERATION immigrant, as is my sister (though our parents very much focused on assimilating, much to our detriment, imo, refusing to speak anything but English in the house).

These people that speak about "integration" really don't know the meaning off the word, if you look at these demands it's assimilation.

Plus you have different standards based on people's background.
In Holland if a person with a immigrant background did half the fraction of the stuff PVV and FvD the amount of crap they would probably be deported.
Every now and than DENK is being accused of using PVV tactics but the criticism Denk receives is actually much worse than what the PVV faces.

[Yadryonych]

Care to explain how enclave are a bad thing?

Reminds me how European immigrants settled in enclaves in the new world. Didn't go too well for the locals

[LilSaihah]

Care to explain how enclave are a bad thing? "oh no there are too many Chinese, split them up forcibly!!!"

Chinese people specifically?
Chinese enclaves are targeted by CCP intelligence, they go out of their way to establish operations in dense populations of ethnic Chinese to monitor the local population and encourage pro-CCP attitudes. If anyone falls out of lockstep or speaks against the CCP, they threaten their families back home.

[Yriel]

Edit: FWIW, almost every immigrant's family is integrated within 1 or 2 generations of the original immigrating adults. DREAMers are as American as their white counterparts born in the country.

No they are not. Just look at the Turks in Germany.

[Dezerte]

I mean, I was born in India, I fully integrated into the U.S., and my culture is going to die with my parents.

That sounds more like assimilation.

[Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang]

Reminds me of France.. some immigrant heavy suburbs in Paris wont be touched by the police if they can dodge it.

Same as the infamous Molenbeke in Brussels.. another Ghetto with nearly or fully only immigrants. This is what Denmark tries to stop.

From the reports we get, add-in the Fire department and ambulances to the list of those that would rather avoid some areas in France.

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No they are not. Just look at the Turks in Germany.

Or at France : the very first waves of immigrants integrated mostly, blending much and more often than not giving French names to their offsprings, while the latter and their descendants up to the current waves congregated in parallel societies.

In the case of France, there are specifics due to its particular colonial history, with many of the first waves being already French or having made the cultural choice of France :
-the first waves of migration from the French Carribean were actually brought to be public servant, as prior to the Oil Crisis, Metropolitan French people favored the private sector)
-Pre-decolonization immigration, particularly at the time of the Union Française, consisted mainly of the empire elite (the Paris parliament had African representative, some of which later led the decolonized countries, like Senghor).
-the first massive immigration waves were those that followed the decolonization conflicts, which led to the exodus not only of the European settlers and the local Jews that had been assimilated, but also of the native Harkis in Algeria, and the elite of Vietnam or Cambodia, particularly from the Chinese community.

Those people integrated if not assimilated in a relatively short time-frame, for crucially they made the choice to, or had to, in contrast to later massive waves that consisting often of the former colonies lower classes if not rejects, some of them having bathed for decades if not more than half a century in political experiments tinted with Nationalism, Socialism and Revanchism...

[Machismo]

i'm russian born in estonia... we kept our culture despite the hostility to us in estonia... i've lived in sweden since roughly 13 years back now, still kept our culture... i speak 4 languages because of how i grow up...

And you also look the same as Swedes, as a whole. That hostility you faced is people hating you for your ethnicity and culture.

Now, imagine how much hostility you'd have if you weren't a 6-ft tall blonde chick, and were a brown Muslim....

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As for the first part - thanks for being snappy Mr. Moderator but there is a huge difference between countries like Denmark and the Western powers. There is also a huge difference between the way the UK, France, Belgium or Spain for example treated their former colonies and now treat the subsequent independent nations.

Immigrant don't have to fit in in a forced way. The only thing happening here is preventing a situation where they can avoid fitting in, creating a parallel society.

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The situation of Russians in Estonia and Latvia are a perfect example of disfunctional parallel societies (please note that I am not blaming the ethnic Russians here, just stating that the coexistence doesn't work well at all) which Denmark is trying to avoid.

This is literally trying to force them to fit in... otherwise no government action would be used.

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Enclaves can be a bad thing because they are at a high risk of developing a parallel society where people don't respect the fundamental laws of the country they live in.

If they don't obey the law, then arrest them.

That's it.

[Twdft]

The problem is that some immigrants personally, and some groups of immigrants in general don't want to fit in. They're mentally stuck in their own country and all they want is the Danish wages, they don't even bother to learn the language properly and dude disencourage their kids from learning it well and finding friends and partners outside their community.

Integration is not a one way street. For immigrants to integrate into society people already there have to be open to people to integrate.

I am sure I could be friends with immigrants, they are people like everyone else but I am probably too old to make new friends. Or rather I have a circle of friends and little opportunity to meet new ones because frankly no motivation. I keep my work completely seperated, and will never make a friend at work. My friends and family are pretty much the same. And a lot of other people too.

So what are immigrants to do? Knock on my door and ask to be friends? There is no ill intent on either part but I can totaly see how immigrants end up closer to the person arriving just before them.

Add to that the still lingering everyday racism of Helmut&Marianne having an easier time to rent an appartment or get get a job/loan than Fatima&Ahmed and it's easy to see why immigrants build communities.

[Shadowferal]

I agree with what you're saying principially but I think it doesn't apply to this situation. The US is a completely different story. It's a melting pot. It doesn't even have an official language. Also, the US history is carrying all the unresolved colonial, conquerial and slavery baggage that makes these issues all the more complicated and sensitive.

I agree.
Some Americans posting seem to hold the mentality that their policies are the only policies that should be followed because "they're the best." Most individual countries across the pond have their own cultural identity. And if immigrants are fleeing their own country...why run to a country that holds a different culture to begin with setting up a clash that shouldn't happen?

[Machismo]

1) OK, if you want to frame it that way, it is forcing them to fit in. How is that a bad thing though?

2) That's not so simple in the real world. It's much better to have a society with healthy interpersonal relations where lawkeeping is sustained naturally by people's common belief that these laws are fair and just. Allowing people from countries with lower standards of law enforcement to create enclaves of higher crime rates and then arresting those people is absurd both in a humanly way and also economically.

We've seen countless times that people don't like being forced to do things like this... and it often ends very violently and badly. So, glad to see we're past the point of this simply being a matter of it simply being polite recommendations, and it undermines your entire argument.

Imagine forcefully putting minorities into a neighborhood where the people don't want them there, they don't want to be there, and a large percentage of the populace is racist and/or xenophobic. That's the fucking problem. I even pointed to the black family that was threatened with death, all for moving (voluntarily) to a town that was almost all white.

I love the idea of integration and open-mindedness, but I have no desire to use the government to force it. We've seen how it plays out, and the minority population gets treated like shit all too often. Since I don't think the laws you want to push are fair and just, then I have a huge problem with it, and it's exactly why I'm so strongly against it. See how that works?

As I have been saying from the beginning, this is thinly-veiled racism, and is nothing more than "Be like us, or else..." Nah, fuck that.

[Dezerte]

Integration is not a one way street.

I think you can say that segregation and racism are linked. Segregation causes racism, and racism causes segregation.

[Machismo]

I agree.
Some Americans posting seem to hold the mentality that their policies are the only policies that should be followed because "they're the best." Most individual countries across the pond have their own cultural identity. And if immigrants are fleeing their own country...why run to a country that holds a different culture to begin with setting up a clash that shouldn't happen?

You know... to not be murdered...

"Be like us, or else..."

[Shadowferal]

You know... to not be murdered... "Be like us, or else..."

O...you mean the culture in their country is the problem? Holding to failures should have them running ...sprinting to becoming a Dane.

[Machismo]

O...you mean the culture in their country is the problem? Holding to failures should have them running ...sprinting to becoming a Dane.

Or the murderous tyrants who like to kill children.

The racism is getting worse with you... you really have gone off the deep end.

[Shadowferal]

Or the murderous tyrants who like to kill children. The racism is getting worse with you... you really have gone off the deep end.

O there you go again, running towards the racism card. Don't you have any other tactics? Or is that all you have? You live in a multicultural society that's also a melting pot with all the facile thinking this should provide you, you should be more than a one trick pony.

[Machismo]

O there you go again, running towards the racism card. Don't you have any other tactics? Or is that all you have? You live in a multicultural society that's also a melting pot with all the facile thinking this should provide you, you should be more than a one trick pony.

This conversation has long been about racism, as well as xenophobia... since the very beginning. Racists should be more than one-trick ponies, then it wouldn't be so easy to constantly point them out.

Even the Danish government has made it clear it's about their disdain for culture.

"Be more like us, or else..."

[Yadryonych]

"Be more like us, or else..."

Be like us or go somewhere else, yes. It is general rule to respect the rules of the house