What's Wrong with Simple Systems Expansion?

[rayvio]

ever since the original Path of the Titans system was scrapped Blizzard have been looking to work additional systems into the game. maybe it's because of the disapointment at the scrapping of Path or the complaints about simplification of talents but Blizz seem convinced that expansions need to offer some unique system, some Big New to attract/maintain subscribers. Legion artifacts had their downsides but were hugely popular and, for the most part, worked quite well. BFA though... well it's a wonder they still stuck with it after that mess (don't get me wrong, I liked the expansion overall but there's a reason the Special System was overhauled each major patch and it's called "massive critical backlash")

the Covenants in Shadowlands seem like an experiment to have the Special Big New be something that's still central to the story and theme but with more optional components, which may be a step in the right direction. though of course there's no such thing as "optional" for many players (and there are good arguments why some things don't quite count as optional, especially for min/maxers) and it would be nice to have an expansion that can stand up without some new system for us to have to learn and then forget about when the next expansion comes along
that being said, I do like some of the new stuff. Renown seems like an excellent alternative to rep grinds (could possibly be worked into a new kind of rep system in future expansions with different factions having separate renown levels) and while Torghast does get repetitive after a while it still offers some fun with stacking different buffs and allowing us to become crazily powerful without unbalancing the game

[Unholyground]

Obviously, because that is what people wanted.

In Legion, people cried over having to grind AP for each spec seperately, so in BFA we have one necklace for all.

In BFA people cried about having to do grinding at all, so in SLs we do not have a grind anymore.

Now people complain they have nothing to do but Raid and M+ and I feel like facepalming every time I read it.

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I don't even know what the heck you are talking about. I am pretty sure you haven't played SLs. The only one character progression system that requires "grind" is Soul Ash, and that is maybe 1 hour a week and by now you can easily have 1 Rank 4 Legendary for every spec. Anima is completely unimportant now.

Unless of course you consider running dungeons for better gear as "locking character power behind a progression system".

Yes, having to actually play the game to progress your character is suuuuch a bother. Why do they not just send me a set of full 226 when I reach 60 with manually adjustable stats and all transmog options unlocked, so I can stand in my Sanctuary and pick my nose.

Seriously, the entitlement and lazyness of players is getting out of hand. 70% of the complaints these days are "Why do I have to work for rewards?".

If the relation between "effort" and "character progression" is too complex, there is always Fortnite.

If you play to make your monthly sub as well it feels like a horrible job, and now it is even harder since you have to save double the sub forcing a much larger time investment. A lot of people play this way so don't spew shit about it being cheap to play because in some places is is far above minimum wage just to play a fucking game we already bought 9 times. I quit because $21 CAD is an insane amount to pay to play a game when literally every other subscrption service provides more content for less. So the wife and I quit, $42 a month is way too much to justify playing a game that felt like a dead end job.

[Raisei]

If you play to make your monthly sub as well it feels like a horrible job, and now it is even harder since you have to save double the sub forcing a much larger time investment. A lot of people play this way so don't spew shit about it being cheap to play because in some places is is far above minimum wage just to play a fucking game we already bought 9 times. I quit because $21 CAD is an insane amount to pay to play a game when literally every other subscrption service provides more content for less. So the wife and I quit, $42 a month is way too much to justify playing a game that felt like a dead end job.

I am not entirely sure how you got from what I said to this, but alright. Yes the sub is quite cheap for the entertainment *I* get from it, here it would be the equivalent of a 1-2 movies in the cinema and I play a lot more hours of WoW then that would be, so for *me* that is a good deal. I have no clue which other subscription service is offering you more. Amazon Prime? Netflix? Sure, but those are not games.

Oh and btw. you can still buy tokens for ingame gold as far as I know. The change specifically targets pre-paid time cards.

I am still pretty convinced you never started Shadowlands, since I have no clue where you get that feeling of "a horrible job". There is just none of that anymore, because there is no grind. Most days I just do dungeons with the guildies and other fun things, pick up some anima here and there, but not going out of my way.

If that is still feeling like a job to you, I think that the money issue has nothing to do with it. You just grew tired of the game, that is all.

The big question is why you are still posting in a forum dedicated to the game then? Can't enjoy your freedom unless you can get validation by having someone agree with you? Don't worry, many people will. The haters are strong here.

[unbound]

Why can't we have an expansion like Wrath or BC or even Cata? they didn't have much complicated systems, yet they had more zones, raids, dungeons, the story was even better!

Because those things took *much* more effort than the "complicated" systems of today. It takes a lot more effort to create new dungeons filled with different mobs and different bosses that have at least slightly different mechanics.

The main driver of M+ wasn't to provide high value to players (it did do that for some players, but that wasn't the main driver). The main driver of M+ was to put in a simple but somewhat random system that might extend the engagement of players with little effort. After a few iterations, M+ costs next to nothing to maintain and a certain percentage of marks...er, players...think they have all this "content".

The same was true of the artifact system, the garrison, and even the "complicated" systems of today. Most of these "complicated" systems really involve simple power boosts or giving you abilities that you already had before in an earlier expansion. In Legion, a Frost Mage (later in the expansion with the extended Artifact tree) had both Ebonbolt and Freezing Rain by default...now those are only optional via talents...so I had both Splitting Ice and Freezing Rain back then.

Once you accept the truth that Blizz is just another corporation looking to cut corners to improve stock prices and bonuses for top executives, what they do starts making a lot more sense. Blast the playerbase with PR BS to generate hype for the playerbase to find out after the main purchases wasn't all that...and then use PR BS to string along as many subscriptions (yes, your purchase of a token is still a subscription fee...it is just paid for by a whale for an extra $5 is all) for as long as possible.

[Alroxas]

Since Legion, Blizz has been trying to add complex systems to the game that will last for an expansion and then throw it away.

This somehow worked for Legion as the Artifact system wasn't that complicated tbh.

But was a nightmare in BfA, we had the initial system, a new system in the first patch, a third system in the second patch, then there was the cloak at the end.

These systems over complicate the game, and delay it in a lot of ways, tuning them is another story.

Why can't we have an expansion like Wrath or BC or even Cata? they didn't have much complicated systems, yet they had more zones, raids, dungeons, the story was even better!

Simple answer is Borrowed Power systems are required to provide players with "progression"/development and these systems are "retired" at the end of an expansion as a way to reset player power so that players don't become too powerful.

Additionally, think of the additional systems you would need to design to allow players to catch-up/maintain all these power systems.

Imagine this: starting a new main (or alt) in Shadowlands BUT you'll need to do BFA content because Azerite Armor and Heart of Azeroth works in SL. Additionally, you'll also need to do Legion content because artifact weapons are a thing too so you'll need to grind out all that Artifact Power then Azerite Power then Anima Power/Renown.

So now instead of jumping right into SL content, you're going to need to do all the Legion + BFA content otherwise you're gimped for not having leveled those power systems.

[Soon-TM]

Open up the game, hit the Credits section, watch 60 minutes of all the different divisions and sub divisions of the game scroll by.

Don't be asshurt because you don't know how companies have multiple divisions that work on a game or Blizzard would just have one big credit read of "People who worked on the game"

Wow, at least someone managed to write something beyond an inane one-liner. Btw, there are no breakdowns in the credits section other than very general categories, so they are useless in that regard. But let me guess, you thought you had your "gotcha" at an arm's distance. Cute

[Tiwack]

Because players won't let them reuse content without punishing them so they have to resort to reuse these veiled systems and reskins of rewards. Personally I don't see the big issue rehashing an old raid/zone every now and then in return for more zones in a new expansion but I guess especially the collectors don't care about what they're collecting, only that it's unique and always available to be obtained with sufficient luck/gold.
They'd need twice as many employees otherwise and it's simply not sustainable from the ceo/shareholder pov.

[Weeps]

So, like the Covenant abilities ? They're temporary for the expansion and modify gameplay a lot, while not being core to the rotation (most of the time).

Quite the opposite. A more permanent upgrade via new spell/skill learned. It does not necessarily have to be involved in a regular rotation but during niche situations that would be massively helpful. Just an example. With Covenants, we will lose that. Just like we lost LEGIONDARY (keep gettin autocorrected there, lol) power and the heart.

While the covenant does add a niche spell, it isn't a staple part of the class itself. And again, ya lose it eventually. Me no like. Me want to constantly improve my character via "grimoires" or training

[Trend]

Wow, at least someone managed to write something beyond an inane one-liner. Btw, there are no breakdowns in the credits section other than very general categories, so they are useless in that regard. But let me guess, you thought you had your "gotcha" at an arm's distance. Cute

Your "source please?" to challenge what is both common sense and common knowledge seems to me to be a worse sort of cute "gotcha" than what you're whining about. They have talked a number of times about the different teams of people doing different things and it is doubtful someone is going to take a full time research job to provide you a list of links. If you really cared to know more about their development methods you would already know for yourself.

And what are you thinking? You imagine they have like five dudes in a room doing zones, dungeons, raids, class design, expansion systems, etc? Of course they have different people doing different things. They have a large team. How would it make any sense for the same people to be responsible for multiple systems?

[Wangming]

In principle I have no problem with innovation. But all this borrowed power nonsense not only ruins the sense of progression, but also kills enjoyment of previous expansions. Neutered Legion with artifact weapons weaker than what you can get from non heroic dungeons in WoD? That's a bad joke.

[Unholyground]

I am not entirely sure how you got from what I said to this, but alright. Yes the sub is quite cheap for the entertainment *I* get from it, here it would be the equivalent of a 1-2 movies in the cinema and I play a lot more hours of WoW then that would be, so for *me* that is a good deal. I have no clue which other subscription service is offering you more. Amazon Prime? Netflix? Sure, but those are not games.

Oh and btw. you can still buy tokens for ingame gold as far as I know. The change specifically targets pre-paid time cards.

I am still pretty convinced you never started Shadowlands, since I have no clue where you get that feeling of "a horrible job". There is just none of that anymore, because there is no grind. Most days I just do dungeons with the guildies and other fun things, pick up some anima here and there, but not going out of my way.

If that is still feeling like a job to you, I think that the money issue has nothing to do with it. You just grew tired of the game, that is all.

The big question is why you are still posting in a forum dedicated to the game then? Can't enjoy your freedom unless you can get validation by having someone agree with you? Don't worry, many people will. The haters are strong here.

I played it for the first 2 months with a guild, also gamepass is a much better deal 150+ games. It just doesn't hold value for me or anyone I know.

[username993720]

They do throw it away more often than they did previous expansions.

The problem is that they rehash old systems and market it as new.

What was so wrong about Minor, Major a Prime Glyphs?

[Low Hanging Fruit]

For some reason preventing bloat became the pillar of WoWs design. Every system is design to give and then take away to be replaced by another that gives and takes away. More talents, more spells, and more abilities all seem to be things the devs actively want to avoid. I mean if you really think about it classes and specs are pretty much stuck in a rut since WoD. You just are given something that gives you something for an expansion and the some magical reason requires you to lose it at the end of the expansion. Now I understand the need to control bloat. But thier is probably better ways than give and take every expansion. Like with Legion it worked because it was new. In BFA it was like.. wait.. let me guess.. yup. Now in SL its like oh so the barrowed power is this, great, never saw that comming.

[GreenJesus]

You ARE aware that Blizzard has separate team for dungeons and raids, outdoor zones, and quest writing, right? It's not like they took people off those teams to develop other things.

The people working on these systems could instead be working on classes or pvp balance. The game gets a general budget /margin they have to work from and the director has to determine where to put the resources.

Its going to suck when next expansion I cant use ashen hollow/divine toll anymore. How is blizzard going to choose which covenant ability goes forward or not or if any of them will go forward to 10.0 period?

[Kiwijello]

"What's Wrong with Simple Systems Expansion?"

Ion's ego...

[Soon-TM]

Your "source please?" to challenge what is both common sense and common knowledge seems to me to be a worse sort of cute "gotcha" than what you're whining about. They have talked a number of times about

Dude, it's basic debate rules. If someone makes a claim that implies that he/she knows the inner workings of Blizzard in detail, it's only fair to ask them where they got that info from. Because no one pulls !@#$ out of their behind on the internet, right? Right...?

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The people working on these systems could instead be working on classes or pvp balance. The game gets a general budget /margin they have to work from and the director has to determine where to put the resources.

Its going to suck when next expansion I cant use ashen hollow/divine toll anymore. How is blizzard going to choose which covenant ability goes forward or not or if any of them will go forward to 10.0 period?

B-b-b-but people working in covenants aren't the ones working in class balance. And the ones working in PvP aren't those working in PvE. And those working in dungeons aren't doing raids /s

[Couchpotato2013]

“We hate borrowed power” - community in legion/bfa

“Ok, we’ll do something different for SL pre-patch and for content people do in pre-SL. And this will be done by leaving essences and azerite active. However we’ll turn off corruption because the source, N’Zoth was killed and pre-patch will signify his death.” - blizz

*Pre-patch happens*

“Dude wtf, why aren’t these bfa systems turned off? (Meanwhile some people who are so aloof to the news think that said systems in SL pre-patch are corruption, or think corruption in general are still active since they can’t at all detail how their own spec or others function).” - community during SL pre-patch

[Mysterymask]

The people working on these systems could instead be working on classes or pvp balance. The game gets a general budget /margin they have to work from and the director has to determine where to put the resources.

Its going to suck when next expansion I cant use ashen hollow/divine toll anymore. How is blizzard going to choose which covenant ability goes forward or not or if any of them will go forward to 10.0 period?

....do you think throwing more people and money at something will magically make things better

[Niwes]

Since Legion, Blizz has been trying to add complex systems to the game that will last for an expansion and then throw it away.

This somehow worked for Legion as the Artifact system wasn't that complicated tbh.

But was a nightmare in BfA, we had the initial system, a new system in the first patch, a third system in the second patch, then there was the cloak at the end.

These systems over complicate the game, and delay it in a lot of ways, tuning them is another story.

Why can't we have an expansion like Wrath or BC or even Cata? they didn't have much complicated systems, yet they had more zones, raids, dungeons, the story was even better!

seriously? i believe even Blizz do not know the answer on that.

so,etimes it feels to me like they are going „omg they expect anything crazy new, we have to BUYLD CRAAZZZY SYZSTEMZ!!!!“ when everybody would be fine with new world, new dungeons, new raids, a bit of quality improvement on existing stuff and maybe some small goodie (can be a simple system, stuff like farm in MoP or anythimg along those lines). but imstead they spend money and time into all that cheap shit crap.

i mean, ofc wow is cost effective development. this means they build this systems, because its cheap. its mostly a few UIs and items (aka DB entries). game engine coding and gfx/world is expensive. this means we will not get MORE raids and dungeons INSTEAD of all that crap. but why even do that borrowed power progress systems ? wow has enough stuff with PvP, alts, AH, pets, mounts, old raids, achivements, collections, and so on. why even spend money on that fucked up systems that are dead anyway after the xpac, when you imstead can fix PvP ? fix classes ? improve pug gaming. and just tell a good story by simple daily quests or quest lines ? imstead investing in all that crap, regardless if its Covenants, or Pacts, or Azerite or Essences or Legendaries or horrible shit like that VP system or whatever.

many ppl out there just like the older xpacs EXACTLY for the abscence of all that shit, existing since Legion.

but in the end of the day, they have the data. they will know why they implement that stuff and support their smart cash grab systems (Token) by supporting them with such design. so, in the end its all about $$$ as usual.

[Argorwal]

I think they feel the novelty of just more dungeons/raids/BGs isn’t enough to hold many players interest.