Why skilled player got so mad about casual getting better loot?

[Jujudrood]

How about an actual good reason for "yes". They are still getting upgrades. Just upgrades equal to the ilvl that equivalent to their skill

But they aren't, and that's the point.
Casuals are maxed at 200 already as well.

The "yes" is that when everyone caps at their chosen level with nowhere to go, they get bored and stop playing.
I mean, the covenant shit that is poorly itemized (but casuals care less) maxes to like 197, so yeah, they are done with gear enhancements too.
That can't be great for the game, having all levels of play effectively maxed on their gear, maybe fishing for one or two minor upgrade/sidegrades.
Letting everyone below mythic raiding (like 95% of the playerbase) to slowly work towards that is only good for the game.
People will be willing to play for longer because they still have room to grow that isn't "let's put aside 30 hours a week to mythic raid bc my full time job just isn't quite enough of a pain in the balls for me".

The "yes" is that casual players should also be able to work towards it at a slower pace.
I'm not saying let it rain from the heavens a la TF nonsense that was happening, it's about being able to be achieved over longer periods of time.
Hell, let 226s be purchased with Valor, at like 5k.
Season maxes at maybe 10k or whatever, then there; save up and buy 2 items, Joe WQ. There's something to which you can aim.
And by time you save up, new patch (hopefully) comes out and you have a brand new treadmill.

The "yes" is that splintering it into an incredibly small subgroup, which is still gearing at the same pace as casuals, only leads to more people capping, getting bored, and unsubbing at all levels, with the elite toxic few attempting to stand over others as if their status in a video game means anything, because if servers shut down tomorrow, your CE and my AOTC and Joe's WQs mean the exact same thing: nada.

[Soon-TM]

the game only works for those who have access to the best gear.

No surprise that those are the ones who defend the statu quo the most fervently, only that they try to mask it with some "meritocracy" rhetoric. That's the funniest part

[Semihagez]

Funny.. I thought in SL it's harder for casual to get the same grade as loot as prevoius expansions.
CN is not a easy raid at all especially when you consider it's the first raid of the expansion.

[Ausr]

My argument is that rewarding harder content with higher loot quantity rather than higher loot quality is perfectly sufficient and would make the game better in a variety of ways:

1. Easier to tune content
2. Less ilvl inflation.
3. Better sense of completion for most players.
4. Keeps players at their skill level rather than players trying to push into content they shouldn't be, which causes social conflicts and toxicity.

The downsides thus far are:

1. A small faction of high end content players will have their feelings hurt.

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What was the point of the analogy? It was "This game should work like my job".

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Good thing I never said that, but I'm always happy to see people setting up strawmen because it means they ran out of real arguments.

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Who is talking about solo activity? Man these strawmen must be fun to set up.

Wow, still didn't nail that analogy. It's like watching the Little Engine That Could chugging up that hill. You'll get it eventually.

[NineSpine]

So what rates are acceptable to you? I get my gear in a month and it takes u 6? Cause then I'd be done and unsub for the next 5. Or u get it 1 month after me? Hardly seems fair.

Blizz has done gear this way since day 1. You seem to think your side is the right one but 16 years is against u

No, that's a lie. There were no difficulty sliders in WoW originally.

Games aren't made tobe "fair". "Fairness" is for whiny four year olds.

Its not a straw man. U talked about activities u don't like. Every grouped content rewards up to 226. Pvp,m+, and raid. You cried about "what if I dont like that content???". If u don't like raids, m+, or pvp, then all thats left is solo content. Unless I'm missing something?

Yes, you are missing that all of those activities only provide the best gear at the highest difficulty setting (or ranked in pvp).

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Wow, still didn't nail that analogy. It's like watching the Little Engine That Could chugging up that hill. You'll get it eventually.

Not an argument, but thanks for trying.

[ellieg]

But they aren't, and that's the point.
Casuals are maxed at 200 already as well.

The "yes" is that when everyone caps at their chosen level with nowhere to go, they get bored and stop playing.
I mean, the covenant shit that is poorly itemized (but casuals care less) maxes to like 197, so yeah, they are done with gear enhancements too.
That can't be great for the game, having all levels of play effectively maxed on their gear, maybe fishing for one or two minor upgrade/sidegrades.
Letting everyone below mythic raiding (like 95% of the playerbase) to slowly work towards that is only good for the game.
People will be willing to play for longer because they still have room to grow that isn't "let's put aside 30 hours a week to mythic raid bc my full time job just isn't quite enough of a pain in the balls for me".

The "yes" is that casual players should also be able to work towards it at a slower pace.
I'm not saying let it rain from the heavens a la TF nonsense that was happening, it's about being able to be achieved over longer periods of time.
Hell, let 226s be purchased with Valor, at like 5k.
Season maxes at maybe 10k or whatever, then there; save up and buy 2 items, Joe WQ. There's something to which you can aim.
And by time you save up, new patch (hopefully) comes out and you have a brand new treadmill.

The "yes" is that splintering it into an incredibly small subgroup, which is still gearing at the same pace as casuals, only leads to more people capping, getting bored, and unsubbing at all levels, with the elite toxic few attempting to stand over others as if their status in a video game means anything, because if servers shut down tomorrow, your CE and my AOTC and Joe's WQs mean the exact same thing: nada.

So as I said, make it take about ~5 months of a patch to fill all slots with ilvl from your content. Woth great vault giving 1 piece a week, and 15-16 slots, and chance of duplicate slots, thats what's happening now at least for m+ and raid. Can't speak much on pvp.

The problem is they made cov gear too high ilvl, too fast to acquire. So turbo casuals who do 0 group content have no progression. To give them "progression, they need to nerf the ilvl of cov gear to force them into at least normal raids or m+2, or time gwye their rewards to roughly 1 piece a week like other content. But the moment u nerf their cov rewards or timegate their gear, they're gonna find out real quick that they didn't actually want that form of progression.

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No surprise that those are the ones who defend the statu quo the most fervently, only that they try to mask it with some "meritocracy" rhetoric. That's the funniest part

Everyone has access to the best gear tho. Its not like characters get randomly denied on creation. Put in the work, do the content, get rewards.

[Zandalarian Paladin]

In simple terms, power is associated with efforts AND skills. If you put a lot of effort, you should be rewarded with more power.

It's a philosophical stance. Should you be awarded more money if you do more complex jobs? Should you be given a promotion if you're better than others at what you're doing? Should you have better gear if you're more skilled?

Not saying I agree or disagree, just stating the factual basis behind it.

[Ausr]

No, that's a lie. There were no difficulty sliders in WoW originally.

Games aren't made tobe "fair". "Fairness" is for whiny four year olds.



Yes, you are missing that all of those activities only provide the best gear at the highest difficulty setting (or ranked in pvp).

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Not an argument, but thanks for trying.

Hahaha, just mad you couldn't figure out as simple as that analogy.

Oh god, Zandalarian Paladin just said the same thing as me. Don't reply to him either. Wouldn't want you to hurt yourself.

[ellieg]

No, that's a lie. There were no difficulty sliders in WoW originally.

Games aren't made tobe "fair". "Fairness" is for whiny four year olds.



Yes, you are missing that all of those activities only provide the best gear at the highest difficulty setting (or ranked in pvp).

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Not an argument, but thanks for trying.

Yes there was. It was broken into different tiers in original wow. Then into 10 / 25 man's. Then into normal and heroics. Then flexes. Then mythics.

And if games aren't meant to be fair like you say, then too bad so sad no 226 gear for you :_( . Make sure not to be a "whiny 4 year old"

No Im not missing that. All those activities give gear in the same difficulty, at the same rates. If I do +10s, I get 220s from vault at same rate as the guy doing +14s gets his 226.

[NineSpine]

Hahaha, just mad you couldn't figure out as simple as that analogy.

Oh god, Zandalarian Paladin just said the same thing as me. Don't reply to him either. Wouldn't want you to hurt yourself.

Your analogy was bad, that was the point. Sad I need to explain that.

[Asrialol]

why do casuals think they deserve full 226 when they dont run high keys, high rated pvp, or mythic raiding?

Casuals can do all those things. You don't have to invest many hours per week to do that shit.

[Jujudrood]

So as I said, make it take about ~5 months of a patch to fill all slots with ilvl from your content. Woth great vault giving 1 piece a week, and 15-16 slots, and chance of duplicate slots, thats what's happening now at least for m+ and raid. Can't speak much on pvp.

The problem is they made cov gear too high ilvl, too fast to acquire. So turbo casuals who do 0 group content have no progression. To give them "progression, they need to nerf the ilvl of cov gear to force them into at least normal raids or m+2, or time gwye their rewards to roughly 1 piece a week like other content. But the moment u nerf their cov rewards or timegate their gear, they're gonna find out real quick that they didn't actually want that form of progression.

And if that's the way they go, then so be it.
Personally, I think gearing is far too fast this xpac, and I blame the shitty design of the Vault giving out higher M+ rewards than it should, and PVP letting gear be bought outright (why have effectively 3 completely different gear progression systems for the 3 end game activities? weird).
If they slowed gearing, made it more progressional over longer periods of time, then sure, great; my main argument is that the majority of people should have "something" to work towards and not hit their respective gear caps so quickly.

One thing I've always wanted back was supplementary vendor systems.
I don't want a vendor that sells all 16-17 slots outright, but let me collect valor and buy a goddamn belt or pair of boots for that valor.
Make them cost a shit load so it takes a while to save up, that's fine.
Progression, measured and achievable without the garbage lotto each week, would do the game good, and if they allow some of these items (not all, mind you) to be bought at a 226 level, it would only do good for the casual base as they would have one more thing that keeps them paying monthly.

[NineSpine]

Yes there was. It was broken into different tiers in original wow. Then into 10 / 25 man's. Then into normal and heroics. Then flexes. Then mythics.

And if games aren't meant to be fair like you say, then too bad so sad no 226 gear for you :_(

No Im not missing that. All those activities give gear in the same difficulty, at the same rates. If I do +10s, I get 220s from vault at same rate as the guy doing +14s gets his 226.

Repeatedly describing the way things are doesn't make a case for why they should be that way, unless your argument is "It hurts my feelings", which we both know is your argument.

[ellieg]

Repeatedly describing the way things are doesn't make a case for why they should be that way, unless your argument is "It hurts my feelings", which we both know is your argument.

Says the person crying that their feelings are hurt because big bad blizzard and dirty elitists won't gift them the best gear in the game without doing the hardest content in the game like literally everyone else who gets the gear has to do.

Your feelings are hurt. Skill lvl and effort combine to get the best gear. Can't only have 1 of the 2.

[Ausr]

Your analogy was bad, that was the point. Sad I need to explain that.

It wasn't bad. It just flew over your head, that's why you're still mad about responding to me. It's ok to admit it.

[NineSpine]

It wasn't bad. It just flew over your head, that's why you're still mad about responding to me. It's ok to admit it.

What did I miss then? Or are you going to keep doing that thing where you declare victory but curiously refuse to explain how you won?

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Says the person crying that their feelings are hurt because big bad blizzard and dirty elitists won't gift them the best gear in the game without doing the hardest content in the game like literally everyone else who gets the gear has to do.

Your feelings are hurt. Skill lvl and effort combine to get the best gear. Can't only have 1 of the 2.

I don't play retail, so I don't really care? I play classic where this isn't an issue.

But I can see you are out of arguments so all you have left is "You're just jealous of how pretty I am!"

I provided substantive game design reasons for my ideas. You have yet to bother trying that.

[ellieg]

And if that's the way they go, then so be it.
Personally, I think gearing is far too fast this xpac, and I blame the shitty design of the Vault giving out higher M+ rewards than it should, and PVP letting gear be bought outright (why have effectively 3 completely different gear progression systems for the 3 end game activities? weird).
If they slowed gearing, made it more progressional over longer periods of time, then sure, great; my main argument is that the majority of people should have "something" to work towards and not hit their respective gear caps so quickly.

One thing I've always wanted back was supplementary vendor systems.
I don't want a vendor that sells all 16-17 slots outright, but let me collect valor and buy a goddamn belt or pair of boots for that valor.
Make them cost a shit load so it takes a while to save up, that's fine.
Progression, measured and achievable without the garbage lotto each week, would do the game good, and if they allow some of these items (not all, mind you) to be bought at a 226 level, it would only do good for the casual base as they would have one more thing that keeps them paying monthly.

I think gearing is a little too fast as well. I think those that do pvp, raid, and m+ gear the fasyest, as they shld since ots more effort. But I think 1-2 pieces from raid, ~1 piece a week from conquest (more now with catch up cap), and a high piece from m+ from vault, is too much when all combined.

They get even better than a 226. They get a 235 they worked for

[jazen]

The most comical part of the entire argument is in reality casual players should have access to the best gear simply because without them (and their monthly subscription payment or token purchases) the game would probably shut down or at least have less new content.

[ellieg]

What did I miss then? Or are you going to keep doing that thing where you declare victory but curiously refuse to explain how you won?

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I don't play retail, so I don't really care? I play classic where this isn't an issue.

But I can see you are out of arguments so all you have left is "You're just jealous of how pretty I am!"

I provided substantive game design reasons for my ideas. You have yet to bother trying that.

So you are yet another on this forum who dsnt play the game but wants changes. Lmao what's the point.

Your argument is literally self protection. "No no no its you that has the hurt feelings even tho you've been happy with the game for 16 years. Im totally not a whiny 4 year old (your words) just because I want best gear without doing difficult content. "

Fuck i wish u had to actually play the game to post here haha

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The most comical part of the entire argument is in reality casual players should have access to the best gear simply because without them (and their monthly subscription payment or token purchases) the game would probably shut down or at least have less new content.

They do tho. Next patch.

[NineSpine]

So you are yet another on this forum who dsnt play the game but wants changes. Lmao what's the point.

Your argument is literally self protection. "No no no its you that has the hurt feelings even tho you've been happy with the game for 16 years. Im totally not a whiny 4 year old (your words) just because I want best gear without doing difficult content. "

Fuck i wish u had to actually play the game to post here haha

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They do tho. Next patch.

I stopped playing the game, like many others, because the gear chase was rendered unsatisfying for a large number of reasons.

At this point you are just kind of randomly raging, and I'm still the one that bullet pointed some game design arguments while all you've got is this weird complex.