Why skilled player got so mad about casual getting better loot?

[Lost controller]

WoW's entry standards are controlled by other random people on the internet. You entering depends on others and with the pseudo-elitist mentality that some of the M+ community have (example, demanding someone be grossly overgeared just to get into entry level content).

I'm not dogging on RIO as I use it myself and it's the only tool we have, it's just not a great tool. Kind of like needing to fix a leaky faucet. All you have is a ball-peen hammer to bash the leak closed. It's not "correct" but it's all we have.

In Diablo, your entrance into higher content is determined by the game itself by you doing a solo activity. You can't be carried... you have to do it yourself. So if you see someone in your Torment 16 games, you know that they actually completed certain content on their own. So there is no worry of someone trying to get into a Torment 16 difficulty game and only having ever completed a Torment 2 rift. The game itself will not even allow you to attempt to get in.

It is why I would like to see a new mage tower be made. Barring a few freebie ones like disc priest the fights show you can play your spec quite well. I don't think people have the gear requirements you perceive them as having. The entry level is simply whatever ilv freebie gear can get you. Roughly 210 now I think. The more freebie gear the higher the entry level.

[Necromantic]

It is why I would like to see a new mage tower be made. Barring a few freebie ones like disc priest the fights show you can play your spec quite well. I don't think people have the gear requirements you perceive them as having. The entry level is simply whatever ilv freebie gear can get you. Roughly 210 now I think. The more freebie gear the higher the entry level.

Ignoring gear/ item level, imagine having some kind of solo instance content that scales with difficulty. Such as, queuing and setting it for like M4 level. If you can complete it, it will allow you to "queue" or apply for M4 dungeons.

And the reason I say ignore gear is because many of us know at least a couple people who have gear but still "suck" (lack of a better word).

[Lost controller]

Ignoring gear/ item level, imagine having some kind of solo instance content that scales with difficulty. Such as, queuing and setting it for like M4 level. If you can complete it, it will allow you to "queue" or apply for M4 dungeons.

And the reason I say ignore gear is because many of us know at least a couple people who have gear but still "suck" (lack of a better word).

the issue is how do you build that?

Mage tower was the most successful solo challenge they have made to date for every class barring maybe rogue daggers but its hard to compare since that was designed around a whole class rather then a spec.

Even mage tower had some freebie fights with the tauren fight being toothless compared to most of the other ones. Imp mother depending on class was very easy too. I can't see something like that being well scaled... perhaps giving a template for the fight instead.

[T-34]

WoW's entry standards are controlled by other random people on the internet. You entering depends on others and with the pseudo-elitist mentality that some of the M+ community have (example, demanding someone be grossly overgeared just to get into entry level content).

That is 100% wrong. There is no "entry standard" whatsoever in WoW.
Everybody has the exact same opportunity to make their own group and try to make other people play with them.

You are advocating that people are entitled to join other people's group. That has nothing to do with any "barriers" as nobody is stopping anyone from finding people of similar skill and attitude and play with them.

The issue here is that some players feel entitled to have people that have more experience/skill/better social skills to carry them through content. And those entitled players get very mad when players who have better experience/skill/social skills don't want to play with.

The only solution to this 100% self-inflicted problem that entitled players suffer from would be if Blizzard denied people the possibility to make their own groups or that the entitled players would stop being entitled.

Non-entitled players avoid entitled players like the plague and will not voluntarily play with them under any circumstances.
You can call that "pseudo-elitist" till you get blue in the face, but at the end of the day the "pseudo-elitists" are able to find other "pseudo-elitists" to group up with and get shit done in-game.

[Necromantic]

That is 100% wrong. There is no "entry standard" whatsoever in WoW.
Everybody has the exact same opportunity to make their own group and try to make other people play with them.

That's very misleading. I've seen people post screenshots of trying to do their own key and getting no bites. The advantage of Diablo's system is that it just dumps you into a game with people who the game has determined are capable of that tier of content.

You are advocating that people are entitled to join other people's group. That has nothing to do with any "barriers" as nobody is stopping anyone from finding people of similar skill and attitude and play with them.

The issue here is that some players feel entitled to have people that have more experience/skill/better social skills to carry them through content. And those entitled players get very mad when players who have better experience/skill/social skills don't want to play with.

The only solution to this 100% self-inflicted problem that entitled players suffer from would be if Blizzard denied people the possibility to make their own groups or that the entitled players would stop being entitled.

Within the M+ community, the term "entitled" gets improperly used so much in these strawman replies, it's hard to keep up. It's been proven time and time again that realistically and practically are not the same.

Non-entitled players avoid entitled players like the plague and will not voluntarily play with them under any circumstances.
You can call that "pseudo-elitist" till you get blue in the face, but at the end of the day the "pseudo-elitists" are able to find other "pseudo-elitists" to group up with and get shit done in-game.

You misunderstood the entire context of my entire post.

the issue is how do you build that?

Mage tower was the most successful solo challenge they have made to date for every class barring maybe rogue daggers but its hard to compare since that was designed around a whole class rather then a spec.

Even mage tower had some freebie fights with the tauren fight being toothless compared to most of the other ones. Imp mother depending on class was very easy too. I can't see something like that being well scaled... perhaps giving a template for the fight instead.

Who knows, really. It's up to the devs if they even care to. Reminds me of the green fire quest back in the day. I knew plenty who flat-out gave up because they just couldn't complete it. Later on, they scaled it down so you could do it blindfolded.

[T-34]

That's very misleading. I've seen people post screenshots of trying to do their own key and getting no bites. The advantage of Diablo's system is that it just dumps you into a game with people who the game has determined are capable of that tier of content.

Nice of you to show your true colours. You want to deny people the ability to make their own groups and deny people the option to choose whom to play with.
That is of course a solution for the "problem" the entitled part of the player-base suffers from.

But maybe you can answer me why "the pseudo-elitists" like me have no problems with finding other people to play with and get shit done in-game and why the "gate-kept" can't do the same?

The reason I play WoW is that I can choose whom I play with and I am not forced to play with people that make my in-game experience a toxic hell-hole.

[Necromantic]

Nice of you to show your true colours.

huh?

You want to deny people the ability to make their own groups and deny people the option to choose whom to play with.
That is of course a solution for the "problem" the entitled part of the player-base suffers from.

What's up with the strawman arguments? I'm not doing that to you.

But maybe you can answer me why "the pseudo-elitists" like me have no problems with finding other people to play with and get shit done in-game and why the "gate-kept" can't do the same?

Who knows? There are various factors. There are several people who literally play this game 23 hours a day but like to pretend to and tell people they casually play for an hour-ish in order to make them feel inept. There are several reasons. Not everyone can feasibly do the same things as everyone else.

The reason I play WoW is that I can choose whom I play with and I am not forced to play with people that make my in-game experience a toxic hell-hole.

Not trying to pick a fight but how can you say something like this yet sound like such a peach yourself?

[arkanon]

It is why I would like to see a new mage tower be made. Barring a few freebie ones like disc priest the fights show you can play your spec quite well. I don't think people have the gear requirements you perceive them as having. The entry level is simply whatever ilv freebie gear can get you. Roughly 210 now I think. The more freebie gear the higher the entry level.

I think the MT was/is underrated as a training tool. One thing it did really well (for the most part) is teaching people about the core gameplay - aoe, burst, movement, when to run, and when to stand and fight, self healing, defensive's, and in some cases, utility. I think many players only completed them right at the end, when most could simply be burst down for the most part, but as anyone who completed them early on can attest to, it took a fair bit of practice and class/spec knowledge to knock them over in shitty gear.

Proving grounds should have filled this gap, but imo, never really did.

- - - Updated - - -

There are several people who literally play this game 23 hours a day

Name ONE person who plays for 23 hours a day, then in their 1 hour manages to eat/shower/bathroom/and ofc, sleep. If you are going to make ridiculous claims like this, no one will take anything you say seriously.

[darklogrus]

WoW's entry standards are controlled by other random people on the internet. You entering depends on others and with the pseudo-elitist mentality that some of the M+ community have (example, demanding someone be grossly overgeared just to get into entry level content).

I'm not dogging on RIO as I use it myself and it's the only tool we have, it's just not a great tool. Kind of like needing to fix a leaky faucet. All you have is a ball-peen hammer to bash the leak closed. It's not "correct" but it's all we have.

In Diablo, your entrance into higher content is determined by the game itself by you doing a solo activity. You can't be carried... you have to do it yourself. So if you see someone in your Torment 16 games, you know that they actually completed certain content on their own. So there is no worry of someone trying to get into a Torment 16 difficulty game and only having ever completed a Torment 2 rift. The game itself will not even allow you to attempt to get in.

You must not have played D3 in a long while because all D3 is now is nothing but carries, You carry someone from 1-70, Carry them thru avg gear and then carry them thru a GR 70 and your done. As for the game Normal-T6 is open from the start and T7-T16 are open once you hit 70. So you can definately get someone in your game and even a high GR Rift Key whos never pressed a button..

[Lost controller]

I think the MT was/is underrated as a training tool. One thing it did really well (for the most part) is teaching people about the core gameplay - aoe, burst, movement, when to run, and when to stand and fight, self healing, defensive's, and in some cases, utility. I think many players only completed them right at the end, when most could simply be burst down for the most part, but as anyone who completed them early on can attest to, it took a fair bit of practice and class/spec knowledge to knock them over in shitty gear.

Proving grounds should have filled this gap, but imo, never really did.

- - - Updated - - -



Name ONE person who plays for 23 hours a day, then in their 1 hour manages to eat/shower/bathroom/and ofc, sleep. If you are going to make ridiculous claims like this, no one will take anything you say seriously.

I think a large part of it is blizzard is very wary of anything that could harm the ego of certain members of the playerbase...

I recall the blow back from WoD needing proving grounds and I also recall out of sheer curiosity seeing what a normal dungeon at max level looked like that expansion. There were people who could not pass even that bar.

[arkanon]

I think a large part of it is blizzard is very wary of anything that could harm the ego of certain members of the playerbase...

I recall the blow back from WoD needing proving grounds and I also recall out of sheer curiosity seeing what a normal dungeon at max level looked like that expansion. There were people who could not pass even that bar.

For real? I do remember a couple of alts getting caught up on it for a couple of attempts due to green questing gear etc, but was it genuinely "difficult" for people to get? Or did some players just not know about it?

[Lost controller]

For real? I do remember a couple of alts getting caught up on it for a couple of attempts due to green questing gear etc, but was it genuinely "difficult" for people to get? Or did some players just not know about it?

O if you know the sheer basics it was free but it filtered a lotta people out.

[T-34]

huh?
Not trying to pick a fight but how can you say something like this yet sound like such a peach yourself?

Well it takes a peach to spot a peach, right?

People like me, who think that is 100% your own responsibility/option/freedom to decide how you play and whom you play with, find people like you who advocate systems that would reduce such freedoms in order to get carried for toxic.

People like you, who think that players have an obligation/should be forced to play with others, find people like me, who refuse to play with certain players, to be toxic.

Blizzard has had the exact same stance on grouping since the start of WoW - it is player-driven, except for the easiest of content.
If you don't have the game skills and/or social skills to play competitive content with other people then Blizzard considers it to be your problem.

Added:
I am pretty sure, but I can't know it, that Blizzard is perfectly aware that it is very bad for the in-game experience to mix competitive people and entitled people more than absolutly necessary.

[GongBaoChicken]

The people arguing for next to no loot progression for casuals are the same people who advocate for only one - or at most two - difficulties in single player games.

I think Anita Sarkeesian was onto something with the gaming crowd...

[Lost controller]

The people arguing for next to no loot progression for casuals are the same people who advocate for only one - or at most two - difficulties in single player games.

I think Anita Sarkeesian was onto something with the gaming crowd...

I think you need to define casual... no one here is enjoying the nerfed loot drops. As for breaking the game to give people free loot...no we are not gonna do that.

[Echocho]

I am pretty sure, but I can't know it, that Blizzard is perfectly aware that it is very bad for the in-game experience to mix competitive people and entitled people more than absolutly necessary.

So if you're not competitive you're entitled? Nice

[Feral Druid ist Op]

I clearly stated I am not speaking from a Pve perspective. I don't give a dam about raids or M+ it's not my favorite flavor in the game, I think it's dumb, boring and void of skill. So everything you say is 100% wrong based on my perspective, particularly the comment about what other people have. If you're a pvper you very much care what your opponents have with respect to gear. Sure, I could do a little bit of research on the net, ask a few raider friends and intelligently answer your question, but I choose not to. And if I did - wouldn't that be an indication of "skill" by your standards, meanwhile I haven't stepped into a current non-lfr raid since Cata.

pve @ 99 parses is > pvp skill wise cuz in order to 99% pars you need pvp gear (at least for my spec) and i did my 2100 for the free pvp mainhand it was way easier than my rank 1 Havoc (100%) pars on myhtic danny just trowing that in here.

[TheRevenantHero]

Well it takes a peach to spot a peach, right?

People like me, who think that is 100% your own responsibility/option/freedom to decide how you play and whom you play with, find people like you who advocate systems that would reduce such freedoms in order to get carried for toxic.

People like you, who think that players have an obligation/should be forced to play with others, find people like me, who refuse to play with certain players, to be toxic.

Blizzard has had the exact same stance on grouping since the start of WoW - it is player-driven, except for the easiest of content.
If you don't have the game skills and/or social skills to play competitive content with other people then Blizzard considers it to be your problem.

Added:
I am pretty sure, but I can't know it, that Blizzard is perfectly aware that it is very bad for the in-game experience to mix competitive people and entitled people more than absolutly necessary.

So unless someone treats WoW like a job instead of a game, they're entitled and deserve to just shunted off to the side? It's mentalities like this that has been killing WoW.

[Lost controller]

So unless someone treats WoW like a job instead of a game, they're entitled and deserve to just shunted off to the side? It's mentalities like this that has been killing WoW.

Yes.

Because you don't have to treat wow like a job. I have gotten CE this tier raiding six hours a week. If anything the grinding needed to cap conduits takes far longer then getting CE.

The problem is we can't actively break the games gearing system because people are envious that harder content offers better rewards. This entire thread is driven by blind envy. It is this mentality of "well I play a lot I deserve rewards" that has lead to all these grind systems being added to the game.

If you want better improve. If you don't want to do that find a game that suits your tastes.

[T-34]

So if you're not competitive you're entitled? Nice

I've never said that. I said it it is bad for the game if you mix competitive people with entitled people. There are plenty of wow-players that aren't competitive, but at the same time aren't entitled.

The entitled are a tiny minority, that is wastly over-reperesented here on this forum.
An entitled player is one that feels that players that have more experience/is better skilled should either be forced or feel obliged to carry them.
The vast majority of non-competitive people are rational and normal and would never dream of forcing or demanding other players to carry them.