In-game Raider.io score

[Itishowitis]

It tells a lot. If your dps is consistent it means that you are able to do dps AND other things like interrupting AND not standing in bad stuff AND avoid avoidable damage. If it’s low and you’re geared like the high dps dude it means you are failing in one/two or all three of those 3 categories.

OF COURSE it’s not a 100% reliable data but as well as rio it’s better than the actual nothing.

Basing on MY healer experience 90% of my non timed runs at any level were because of dps not dpsing enough for whatever reason.

That will decrease low rio people chances to get into low key dungeons even more.
And rio gives you experience score. DPS is very situational, if your healer dies on PF last boss 3 times, your dps for the dungeon will be trash, same as if your tank only pulls 1 pack at the time. Your dps score would have to rely on "biggest key dps" which would mean a lot of padding and if it doesn't happen - people would leave.
How do you measure healers against it? What if you run with prot paladin or bdk? Their healing will be as high as healers. Or do you want to rate it on dps? Tanks with DPS builds = healers can dps. Imagine being a paladin and having to compete against venthyr paladins lol.

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I said that BESIDES rio FOR ME it would be useful to have also average dps of dps who apply.

Feel free to not care about dps of dps just don’t pretend it’s not a useful data.

in all the threads I have read, you shift the blame to something else just because you had some good runs with premade party at some point in the past. "We timed it - it means it's not me who fuck up pugs" while in truth it probably was your premade carrying you hard.

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Yep, and that is what is wrong with rio as number simply turn people into vultures while whole game mode into rat race.
Im not getting accepted -> i push arbitrary score -> I get accepted bit more -> I want to push higher -> but im not getting accepted -> i need to push other dungeons

and the circle continues. The only way out from this madness is to make a network of friends.

So now it's basically turning people into numbers. Instead of providing basic data (like top X best dungeons) and giving more filters in finder.

People treat other people as a score and then suggesting that they could have more data.. but when someone says that data is there you say it's not there because you have to put any effort and you rather turn people into simple numbers than do that. Self induced problem.

[Kaver]

I don’t see any freehold here. BUT in any case it won’t be 10 dungeons out of 50 done in which your dps was lower due to a particular mechanics to make the overall difference.

I would need it not to pick a 3.5k dps in a 14, if you’re 4K+ it’s all the same, if I think I need a rogue for whatever reason I won’t pick a 4.3k frost dk instead of a 4K rogue.

Yes so this is how you would use it. But what about the rest of the players? You don't see how this could create further problems?

[Itishowitis]

good dps can though kill stuff before mechanics happen . thats why if you have group with good dps you only need like 1 max 2 interupts per pack . if dps is bad - oh boy then problems happen .

ill give you example from last night - i did run in what would be sub optimal group - aka 2 hunters and ele shammy - but because of 2x wild spirirts every 2 minutes trash melted down when 2 people were bursting for 25k consistently

While this is true in essence it's mostly good for doing 4-5 pack bl pulls with combust, it is very far from truth on normal pulls. You must have excellent rotation of cc and interrupts because you don't out-gear +20, you get better at doing what you have to do.

[chiddie]

Yes so this is how you would use it. But what about the rest of the players? You don't see how this could create further problems?

No. Now good people with lower rio and good dps are declined simply because of lower rio. I see you’re 100 rio points below your colleague, bye. You maybe do double dps than your colleague but I can’t know it and I won’t take the risk. If I instead see that they have awesome dps despite lower rio I will give you a chance for sure.

Now people only look at rio. The higher, the better. If we could have more parameters to measure a player global rio could be less important and give ppl more chances.

The real issue would be that really bad people/boosted would have even lass chances to be picked than today but I’m not sure it’s 100% bad.

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That will decrease low rio people chances to get into low key dungeons even more.
And rio gives you experience score. DPS is very situational, if your healer dies on PF last boss 3 times, your dps for the dungeon will be trash, same as if your tank only pulls 1 pack at the time. Your dps score would have to rely on "biggest key dps" which would mean a lot of padding and if it doesn't happen - people would leave.
How do you measure healers against it? What if you run with prot paladin or bdk? Their healing will be as high as healers. Or do you want to rate it on dps? Tanks with DPS builds = healers can dps. Imagine being a paladin and having to compete against venthyr paladins lol.

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in all the threads I have read, you shift the blame to something else just because you had some good runs with premade party at some point in the past. "We timed it - it means it's not me who fuck up pugs" while in truth it probably was your premade carrying you hard.

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People treat other people as a score and then suggesting that they could have more data.. but when someone says that data is there you say it's not there because you have to put any effort and you rather turn people into simple numbers than do that. Self induced problem.

I’m not blaming anyone. I posted my experience.

My experience brought me to think that runs almost always fail because of dps not dpsing enough so I would like to have a better measure besides rio. I’m not saying it’ll be easy to implement and it will solve all the issues. It would just be another indicator. Feel free to think I am the problem instead... it’s not a problem.

[Depakote]

It's almost like some in game score isn't a good indicator of how good a player is. It's almost like people are fixated on a random number to tell how good a player is instead of just queing for content, clearing content and being happy you could clear content.. Why people are so fixated on a meaningless score of how good someone supposedly is is beyond me. It's a bit childish imo.

[Relapses]

It's almost like some in game score isn't a good indicator of how good a player is. It's almost like people are fixated on a random number to tell how good a player is instead of just queing for content, clearing content and being happy you could clear content.. Why people are so fixated on a meaningless score of how good someone supposedly is is beyond me. It's a bit childish imo.

Without the score, people would just use the Armory to determine your value to the group anyway. Why are you so insecure about people who clear difficult content wanting to have an easy way to determine whether an applicant to their group is qualified?

[Fenrys]

No. Now good people with lower rio and good dps are declined simply because of lower rio. I see you’re 100 rio points below your colleague, bye. You maybe do double dps than your colleague but I can’t know it and I won’t take the risk. If I instead see that they have awesome dps despite lower rio I will give you a chance for sure.

Now people only look at rio. The higher, the better. If we could have more parameters to measure a player global rio could be less important and give ppl more chances.

The real issue would be that really bad people/boosted would have even lass chances to be picked than today but I’m not sure it’s 100% bad.

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I’m not blaming anyone. I posted my experience.

My experience brought me to think that runs almost always fail because of dps not dpsing enough so I would like to have a better measure besides rio. I’m not saying it’ll be easy to implement and it will solve all the issues. It would just be another indicator. Feel free to think I am the problem instead... it’s not a problem.

The issue is that overall dps numbers tend to be more strongly correlated to other factors (how big the tank pulls, what key level you are playing, even the dps of your party members) than actual ability of the player. I can do 9k overall in one 19 and 7k in the same dungeon in the next. Overall dps just isn't a good metric. Obviously if can't play your class you will perform worse on the meters, but the actual number tells you nothing useful by itself (unlike rio!)

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It's almost like some in game score isn't a good indicator of how good a player is. It's almost like people are fixated on a random number to tell how good a player is instead of just queing for content, clearing content and being happy you could clear content.. Why people are so fixated on a meaningless score of how good someone supposedly is is beyond me. It's a bit childish imo.

Well, mostly because it isn't meaningless. It isn't designed to tell how good someone is, but rather how experienced. Experience correlates strongly to performance, but it isn't a perfect correlation.

[Depakote]

Without the score, people would just use the Armory to determine your value to the group anyway. Why are you so insecure about people who clear difficult content wanting to have an easy way to determine whether an applicant to their group is qualified?

Not insecure, just think it's stupid to worry about what other's gear score is instead of just playing the game. Besides gearscore like this new rio thing is just a number. It doesn't show how good a player is. You won't know that until you actually group up with them.

[Relapses]

Not insecure, just think it's stupid to worry about what other's gear score is instead of just playing the game. Besides gearscore like this new rio thing is just a number. It doesn't show how good a player is. You won't know that until you actually group up with them.

And? Like I said, even in a hypothetical world where neither R.IO nor the proposed Blizzard system are in place, players will still do whatever they can to determine whether you're a qualified candidate. Your distaste for these types of systems will not change player behavior.

[Depakote]

And? Like I said, even in a hypothetical world where neither R.IO nor the proposed Blizzard system are in place, players will still do whatever they can to determine whether you're a qualified candidate. Your distaste for these types of systems will not change player behavior.

When you say players i honestly think you mean yourself. I've played constantly (with a minor break in mists because of a busted computer) since late Burning Crusade and i have never checked anyone's armory to verify if they can do the content. honestly think doing that adds to the toxicity of the game and people's inability to make friends because the 'elite' are all worried about some make believe number that somehow defines how good someone is.

[Relapses]

When you say players i honestly think you mean yourself. I've played constantly (with a minor break in mists because of a busted computer) since late Burning Crusade and i have never checked anyone's armory to verify if they can do the content. honestly think doing that adds to the toxicity of the game and people's inability to make friends because the 'elite' are all worried about some make believe number that somehow defines how good someone is.

Lol, yes. Clearly I'm the only person who gives a shit about how successful my groups are. That's why there's 34 pages of people saying the same exact thing I am, right? Your anecdotal sample size of yourself does not counter the empirical evidence that almost 100% of timed keys above the +15 range (hell, probably above the +10 range) are done with the assistance of R.IO. There are quite literally millions of timed keys that prove this wrong.

[Twdft]

The issue is that overall dps numbers tend to be more strongly correlated to other factors (how big the tank pulls, what key level you are playing, even the dps of your party members) than actual ability of the player.

I don't think anyone who thinks overall dps would be better than r.io is even able to read a log.

[Itishowitis]

No. Now good people with lower rio and good dps are declined simply because of lower rio. I see you’re 100 rio points below your colleague, bye. You maybe do double dps than your colleague but I can’t know it and I won’t take the risk. If I instead see that they have awesome dps despite lower rio I will give you a chance for sure.

Now people only look at rio. The higher, the better. If we could have more parameters to measure a player global rio could be less important and give ppl more chances.

The real issue would be that really bad people/boosted would have even lass chances to be picked than today but I’m not sure it’s 100% bad.

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I’m not blaming anyone. I posted my experience.

My experience brought me to think that runs almost always fail because of dps not dpsing enough so I would like to have a better measure besides rio. I’m not saying it’ll be easy to implement and it will solve all the issues. It would just be another indicator. Feel free to think I am the problem instead... it’s not a problem.

if runs are failing because of dps... wouldn't it make sense that a good dps would have a good score? (their runs don't fail) Not that there are no exceptions, but still. I have seen way more runs fail because of DPS not using their non dps skills. And going anything 20+ dps won't carry you if you can't use your class to full capacity.
What you are describing sounds like a hard carry where there is nothing to heal on fights like Darkvein, if your dps are Godlike, and plenty of stuff to heal, if dps are just ok.

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I don't think anyone who thinks overall dps would be better than r.io is even able to read a log.

this /10 ch

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Not insecure, just think it's stupid to worry about what other's gear score is instead of just playing the game. Besides gearscore like this new rio thing is just a number. It doesn't show how good a player is. You won't know that until you actually group up with them.

It's experience indicator. Good luck in trying to join a Top 500 guild with having no logs or raiding experience from the past.

[dacoolist]

I know this is page 34 of the thread (beating a dead horse when it's already petrified) - Lets all agree on this: WoW is dead, so if in game R IO score is going to cause you grief - just move onto the next wow killer. Be honest, R IO helps those of us who STILL PLAY THE GAME and if you dont do M+, how would this affect you?

Just trying to clear the thread up because it's still going for some reason

[GreenJesus]

This is another bad idea that will just further divide playerbase. People don't seem to understand that toxicity comes basically from a rat race. Make game more like rat race for irrelevant numbers and you will get LoL levels of toxicity. Next step will be making gear drop tied to score, not content. Timed raids, removal of leveling, shrinking story and actual content (because nobody goes outside so its waste of time anyways). Bit by bit removing the social aspect and further emphasize on difficulty, timers, rankings.

If blizzard wants to create competitive game modes they have to support it with tools that allow players to beat it and "compete". If they don't want players to be "toxic" then they shouldn't be creating game modes that require players to beat a tight timer. I don't want to waste my key and time so ill be careful about who I bring. If I didn't have RIO scores or something similar to be able to see someone's experience i just simply wouldn't bother doing the content or would only take guildies that I know can do the content. If blizzard wants to make M+ less toxic, they should remove the whole key system and just allow you to choose your dungeon and level on a menu. That way there is no risk of depleting.

[Tziva]

The issue is that overall dps numbers tend to be more strongly correlated to other factors (how big the tank pulls, what key level you are playing, even the dps of your party members) than actual ability of the player. I can do 9k overall in one 19 and 7k in the same dungeon in the next. Overall dps just isn't a good metric. Obviously if can't play your class you will perform worse on the meters, but the actual number tells you nothing useful by itself (unlike rio!)

Yeah, I've done hundreds of keystones this season alone and the amount of runs I've had fail due to poor DPS is pretty small (I am a healer so I am not carrying anyone to explain it either). Mechanical failures are absolutely the number one reason any key falls apart. Bad count due to buttpulls or cluetank tanks winging a route would probably be second most common, and again DPS numbers are also irrelevant there.

Also, I feel like most of the time my keys have failed due to lower dps, they were still fairly smooth runs, we just weren't fast enough to beat the timer, which I'm much more apathetic about.

To be sure, DPS definitely matters. Fights that go slow increase the likelihood mechanical mistakes will happen the longer they stretch, it can start to wear on healer mana and exhaust tank cooldowns, and it makes beater the timer harder... but I still think it's one of the least important metrics for evaluating a DPS for a keystone outside of super niche contexts. I would take more experience over a higher DPS parse any day when making my keystone pugs.

(and yeah, like the quote says, DPS numbers are correlated on too many outside factors that its hard to use as a metric outside of the context those numbers occured in. You can make great AoEers look terrible by pulling too small, for example. Or a stellar afflication lock may look pathetic because the moonkin convoked before his DoTs had time to tick. You also don't know if that crazy high number coming from the rogue is because he's tunneling the boss on an add fight and ignoring other mechanics, and actually making the fight harder for his teammates rather than easier.)

[Rhoe]

I've been lurking in this thread for days, and tonight my regular group had multiple people missing, so I decided to experiment and go pug instead and see how much of a toxic cesspool it really is. I'm normally a tank, but don't really want to pug as that with these affixes.

So I started out as a ilvl 221 (showing up as 224) boomy with something like 950 r.io score in that spec. I think it won't be too hard to get into groups since treants are really good on necrotic, and people apparently don't look at the shield symbol next to my shiny tank r.io score. Got invited to one of the first four Mists +15 groups I applied to. People say hi. We quickly get a healer and then a tank. I make a joke about making really sure we have enough NF seeing as we are 3 druids, hunter, warlock. Nobody responds. Someone else asks if we're using lock portal to skip. Yep. Key starts, everything goes fine, we have 4 deaths by the end of the dungeon 3 of which are dying to standing in bad stuff. Nobody says a word about it, key is timed after all, even if it's just +1. People say gg ty and leave. I dunno man, this ain't the toxic cesspool I was promised.

Let's try again, now my r.io is 960, surely this will help. I apply to SoA, almost instantly get into a group. We eventually get a tank, people say hi. Key starts, some deaths on the first big pull, nobody says anything. We proceed to first boss where tank gets slapped and dies, combat ressed, dies again. We reset the encounter, healer says "why ?", tank responds "normal hits". We have another wipe, healer tells says "dude dont turn back to the boss", a dps chimes in with "bro you getting beamed". Tank just says "no" and pulls again, dies again. Key owner says "dont need to continue, it's already gg". Group disbands. Not a nice experience really, but I wouldn't call it toxic either.

Okay, another try. Get invited and kicked from two different SoA 15 groups with the leader saying something like "cya". Why? I dunno. Maybe they actually looked at my dps r.io. Get into a third group. People say hi, key starts, there's some communication about things like rogue shroud and soaking on third boss. We have four deaths without a comment. We time the key +2. Totally carried by the rogue who did 800 more overall dps than me and the other guy. People say things like well done and scuffed but wp.

Maybe I need to get into a more poisonous environment to find the toxicity. This just won't do. But my r.io is 1002 now! Plaguefall it is. I get into the second PF +15 group I apply for. Well, it turns out it's actually for spires. Been there, done that, I apologize for not wanting to do spires and leave.

Get invited to the next PF +15 group I apply to. People say hi. Key starts. Someone pulls an extra plagueroc in the very first pull and tank asks who did it and then requests that we die or the route is fucked. Finally a bad word! But is it toxic? Doubtful. We reset the plagueroc and continue on, first boss is the smoothest kill I've ever had. Tank specifically requests "dont pull bird" as we get to the second plagueroc. Well, nobody does. Everything is fine until after the third boss when the healer dc's after jumping down the hole. Tank suggest clearing trash slowly without the healer. We do, with me and the elemental shaman offhealing when needed. Healer comes back, we spawn pride, then go kill the boss. Two people die to plague crash, one of them being me, so I apologize. Nobody comments on it, key was timed. People say gg ty and leave. My r.io has now improved to 1073.

Obviously a very small sample size, but I'm starting to doubt the claims of rampant toxicity in the pugging world.
Also just for fun: the r.io scores of the people in my three completed runs:

Mists 15: Tank 563, Healer 1092, Hunter 1581, Warlock 1316, Me 950
Spires 15: Tank 1187, Healer 1436, DH 1088, Rogue 2056, Me 960
Plaguefall 15: Tank 924, Healer 1298, Monk 1174, Shaman 1310, Me 1002

TL;DR: Pugging +15s doesn't seem very toxic to me, even with some mistakes, wipes and complete failure involved.

[Wuusah]

Obviously a very small sample size, but I'm starting to doubt the claims of rampant toxicity in the pugging world.

This is the standard experience of pugging +14-15 keys.

Imo chat toxicity is mostly a reaction to "gameplay toxicity". If people play like the biggest morons and waste everyone's time in a difficulty where they should know better, then they'll also encounter toxicity a lot. The solution to a lot of chat toxicity is to get better at the game. Not all of it, of course, but a lot of it.

[Temp name]

Obviously a very small sample size, but I'm starting to doubt the claims of rampant toxicity in the pugging world.
Also just for fun: the r.io scores of the people in my three completed runs:

It depends a lot on what key levels you're doing.
10-13 are super toxic from my experience because people are *so* close to the easy 14s, but due to being bad they can't quite get there.
Anything above 15 can also be toxic if you're "undergeared" or have a low score. Though from my experience, the toxic people at these key levels are usually pretty bad themselves, and are toxic to try and hide that. Like throwing shit at me being ~205 ilvl and saying I can't heal properly, and then doing 5k overall dps in a NW with big pulls, and using a spear or two.

14s and 15s are usually people just farming weeklies so they don't really care too much

[erifwodahs]

TL;DR: Pugging +15s doesn't seem very toxic to me, even with some mistakes, wipes and complete failure involved.

Higher you go, better it is. Even if run goes south really fast everyone just "nods in agreement" and disbands.
Only thing I found odd, that last 3-4 cases of someone being an ass in a key were all mages who were outright refusing to combust prides but we are talking about 100 of runs here.

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the toxic people at these key levels are usually pretty bad themselves

You pinned 99% of toxic cases here.
I found that people who are not that good and know it - they are really chill.
People who are good and see someone fuck up drop something in line of "duuuude", well "this is over" or don't say anything unless someone drops blame on them.
Most people who are mediocore are indifferent, but some guys who are good enough but don't realize they are not THAT good really tend to stand out on their commentary about everything - routes, pulls, CD usage, fuck ups, tanking position, even how to play your spec. most of them are just annoying rather than toxic tho.