End justifies the means is not an excuse for this how practice fel , void and death

[Imperator4321]

Yes, you forgot to mention Discipline Priest, the Priest Light user spec that has a talent literally called "Masochism". Sounds pretty sadistic to me.

Discipline Priests don't solely use the Light, they use both Light and Shadow, said Masochism talent affects Shadow Mend, said Talent was also available to Shadow Priests.

[Varodoc]

Discipline Priests don't solely use the Light, they use both Light and Shadow, said Masochism talent affects Shadow Mend, said Talent is also available to Shadow Priests.

Said talent is also used by Discipline Priests, do you know who's considered a Discipline priest? Alonsus Faol. Does Faol look insane or unstable or a ticking bomb to you? No, because these powers don't innately corrupt someone.

[Le Conceptuel]

That's only when there's a Void entity utilizing Void connection to manipulate others.

It wasn't the Void itself that twisted the Argus Draenei, it was the whispers of the Dark Naaru L'ura. It's not the Void itself that is tormenting the Ren'dorei, it's the whispers of the Void Lords and the Old Gods. And so on.

Can you prove that the Void, BY ITSELF, without any MEDDLING from Void entities (Void Lords, Old Gods, Dark Naaru...) is any more dangerous than fire or radioactive substances?

I will confess I can't, but the other points are still maintained nonetheless. Although it is true that it may not be able to harm anyone on its own, all usage of the Void seems to be entirely harmful in nature, and to enough of an extent that the usage of it (as well as the Fel) may not be justified. The Void still devours souls, drives people insane, and, as far as we know, has horrifying bodily effects when weaponized.

If it's as harmful as fire or radioactive substances at all, that would only make my point clear. It's immoral to use incendiary weapons or radioactive substances in war.

[Magical Mudcrab]

As for them only being bad because of what we've seen, that definitely seems nonsensical.

Nothing you posted has proven any of these assertions. The fact of the matter is that how the various cosmic forces have interacted with us so far has been due to how our goals have aligned with theirs. This is something that Danuser has even said in interviews, typically using the Light as a comparison, and even the Titans with Algalon's willingness to commit a global genocide. That the Void will prompt you with whispers of possible futures and events and ways to achieve or avoid those ends is not evil and the deleterious effects of this are no more evil than the physical and mental degradation that occurs from using, for instance, Arcane magic (as seen with Withered, Blood Elves, etc.). The fact that the Void is alien also does not matter, every cosmic force is alien to us and can have detrimental effects on mortals depending on how it is used.

Regarding the Light specifically, it is not evil as a last resort as you want to claim, but does so as a matter of course.
When Xe'ra was going to forcefully change Illidan, that was not a last resort.
When Yrel and the Lightbound began committing genocide against the Orcs on Draenor, that was not a last resort.
Those were both attempts to forcefully convert individuals to the Lights goals by Naaru and their servants without reasonable cause. All you are doing is attempting to rationalize and dismiss outwardly evil actions because you agree with the line of logic because it broadly aligns with an interest you think is reasonable in-game. There is no moral defense of this. The Light, as we know it, has only acted in our interests because our causes are broadly aligned, and we would be subjected the Illidan treatment if we were to oppose the Naaru at a future time.

[Hellobolis]

funny how you conveniently use the spells that are not dmging for fire/frost but wont do the same for shadow, nicely shows you are not interested in facts but in your own opinion...

eh better to stick to generalities instead of specific game mechanics. big point is fire/frost/etc obviously have a choice in how cruel they want to be/not be, whereas shadow/fel/etc only seems to have the choice for cruelty.

shadow mend is shadow spell that heals, disperse is shadow spells that protecs you, purifying diseases is shadow spell too, silence does nothing worse than prevent oter person from casting, those are all shadow spells that dont do anything bad, actualy opposite...

wanna bet shadowmend hurts when it's cast on the target? leaves a dot on you afterall. heck maybe it even leaves scars or puts you back together the wrong way, plenty of other universes where dark healing has nasty side effects.

and healthstone, soulstone, health funnel...

and how many times exactly does the life source for those spells involve a willing volunteer? shadow can't exactly create life energy, it can only take existing.

on the other hand, most fire mage spell give dot which means they literaly slowly burn you alive, there is spell that literaly makes you into a fire bomb...

im not saying it doesn't burn you or that that doesn't hurt. i'm saying they don't go out of their way to make the burning worse than required to kill you.
convince me shadow magic doesn't make things worse than they have to be and i'll happily concede. at least for something like void magic you can make the argument they don't really understand our concept of suffering so they don't take it into consideration, but shadow/fel often go out of their way to maximize that aspect, sometimes even to the extend that it reduces combat effectiveness.

i see you also conveniently ignored bleed/poison, neither of which is shadow magic but both are to cause slow and painful death... so wariors rogues druids are as cruel as lock or shadow priest but they dont use shadow magis co they are cool right?

same shit as everything else. you don't have to use the worst poison you can find, you can just use the least horrible poison thats suitable for your task. poisons often considered quite humane as they can be entirely painless.

same shit with bleeds. just use a regular sword if thats good enough, no need to use some rusty barned hooked sword unless you have a reason for it.

shadow magic is not worse, some of the spells surely are horrible, but so are spells of other schools, literaly breathing frost on you or a metheor or a goddamn moon thrown at you is definitely not better than shadow spells...

really? a meteor? that sounds like one of the most instantaneous deaths you can come up with. and again, im not saying the other schools can't be cruel, i'm saying they often have a choice. whereas shadow overwhelmingly doesn't seem to get a choice. and its only gotten worse for shadow after shadow priest have kinda been moved over to void.

anyways just read some of the books. i think its rise of the horde or one from that time where the orcs come under the influence of the shadow council where they describe the difference in how shaman magic vs warlock magic works.

really don't get how this is a hard concept. if you use IRL examples people immediately understand.

[justandulas]

Which MMOs offer these?

SWTOR, ESO, EVE in some regards, and sandbox MMORPG's

ESO, in particular, has entire crime systems with thievery, assassinations, necromancy (illegal magic)

[Le Conceptuel]

moral relativism vs moral absolutism aka grey morality vs white and black morality

To be fair, there's a difference between certain kinds of moral relativism. Sometimes, moral relativism is just a way of excusing things that the rest of society as a whole seems to deem uniformly unacceptable. Keep in mind that everyone tries to justify themselves, but there's always a common consensus. Morality is very much uniform, regardless of if its objective.

[Varodoc]

I will confess I can't, but the other points are still maintained nonetheless. Although it is true that it may not be able to harm anyone on its own, all usage of the Void seems to be entirely harmful in nature, and to enough of an extent that the usage of it (as well as the Fel) may not be justified. The Void still devours souls, drives people insane, and, as far as we know, has horrifying bodily effects when weaponized.

If it's as harmful as fire or radioactive substances at all, that would only make my point clear. It's immoral to use incendiary weapons or radioactive substances in war.

And yet the Light can also be harmful by nature to the individual, aren't there orcs in AU Draenor who are literally turned into crystals/stone due to the Light's insidious effects? Doesn't seem like such a benevolent power to me...

You're missing the point, what is immoral in war is how men use fire, not fire in itself. Fire is just a force of nature, it consumes, that doesn't make it evil, it's literally just following its natural purpose.

[Le Conceptuel]

And yet the Light can also be harmful by nature to the individual, aren't there orcs in AU Draenor who are literally turned into crystals/stone due to the Light's insidious effects? Doesn't seem like such a benevolent power to me...

You're missing the point, what is immoral in war is how men use fire, not fire in itself. Fire is just a force of nature, it consumes, that doesn't make it evil, it's literally just following its natural purpose.

That is true, but that can well make the use of incendiary weapons evil due to what it does to people. Consider the actual effect of the weapon. Not only is there what it does to people that is pretty objectively worse to some extent than just killing them properly. Obviously, no one in their right mind wants to apply incendiary weapons on a mass scale, much less where they could potentially hurt civilians, and they especially wouldn't do what's functionally the equivalent of putting incendiary weapons in the hands of psychotic pyromaniacs who are constantly tempted to use it incorrectly.

[Evaddon]

In a fantasy setting I'd say ends do justify the means...if you're fighting demons, undead and any other thing that wishes you dead I think using any power at your disposal is totally okay, because no power is inherently evil or dark though some may come from a dark place I don't think this generally makes the power itself evil or dark...it simply just is. Hell we've seen the Divine and the holy used for terrible things and brutality before and will most likely see it again!

[Varodoc]

That is true, but that can well make the use of incendiary weapons evil due to what it does to people. Consider the actual effect of the weapon. Not only is there what it does to people that is pretty objectively worse to some extent than just killing them properly. Obviously, no one in their right mind wants to apply incendiary weapons on a mass scale, much less where they could potentially hurt civilians, and they especially wouldn't do what's functionally the equivalent of putting incendiary weapons in the hands of psychotic pyromaniacs who are constantly tempted to use it incorrectly.

Then you can make that argument about anything, even things that are universally considered good.

For example, everyone thinks that water is good, our bodies are literally comprised for the most part of water, we cannot survive without consuming water. And yet at the same time water can indeed be used to hurt people, you can kill someone by drowning them, doesn't Tywin Lannister literally drown an entire castle full of innocent people? And yet does that mean that water is a bad thing now? You need it to survive but you can also kill people with it, how do you answer that?

[Triceron]

That's like saying radioactivity is evil because it destroys cells and causes cancer
Or that fire is evil because its hot and can burn things.

This is how I view these 'destructive' magics as.

It's just magic. Whether it's destructive or constructive, neither can really be attributed as good or evil because it's all in how you deal with it.

Nature magic can be just as evil if you use spores to spawn a bunch of fungal growths from within someone's body to slowly kill them, or use the light to torture some hapless civilian, as the Scarlet Crusade have been shown to do.

Fel can be used for good too, as Demon Hunters exist for a reason. We're fighting for a good cause and use fire to fight fire because it's damned effective.

[Le Conceptuel]

Then you can make that argument about anything, even things that are universally considered good.

For example, everyone thinks that water is good, our bodies are literally comprised for the most part of water, we cannot survive without consuming water. And yet at the same time water can indeed be used to hurt people, you can kill someone by drowning them, doesn't Tywin Lannister literally drown an entire castle full of innocent people? And yet does that mean that water is a bad thing now? You need it to survive but you can also kill people with it, how do you answer that?

Well, yes, but that has nothing to do with what I'm saying. I'm saying it's that the use of it would be inhumane. Again, the same reason why fire isn't considered bad but incendiary weapons are considered immoral. It's due to the way it kills people. If you could, theoretically, find a civilian application for the Void or an application that killed people in a cleaner, less horrible manner or didn't involve sending people to planes of endless torment, that would make it an acceptable weapon. Once again, it's how it kills people, not that it kills people.

It would essentially make sense to prohibit the Void for the same reason you prohibit chemical and incendiary weapons - it's because the way it kills people is indiscriminate, dangerous, and oftentimes horrible.

[Varodoc]

Well, yes, but that has nothing to do with what I'm saying. I'm saying it's that the use of it would be inhumane. Again, the same reason why fire isn't considered bad but incendiary weapons are considered immoral. It's due to the way it kills people. If you could, theoretically, find a civilian application for the Void or an application that killed people in a cleaner, less horrible manner or didn't involve sending people to planes of endless torment, that would make it an acceptable weapon. Once again, it's how it kills people, not that it kills people.

It would essentially make sense to prohibit the Void for the same reason you prohibit chemical and incendiary weapons - it's because the way it kills people is indiscriminate, dangerous, and oftentimes horrible.

You can literally use the Void to HEAL people (see Discipline and Shadow Priests). Meaning that the Ren'dorei could indeed use their powers to heal the refugees from the Fourth War or the wounded. They could even use their Void Teleportation powers for Taxi civilian service.

[Le Conceptuel]

You can literally use the Void to HEAL people (see Discipline and Shadow Priests). Meaning that the Ren'dorei could indeed use their powers to heal the refugees from the Fourth War or the wounded.

Then that would be an acceptable use of it, as well as possibly transportation. Would the Void be effective enough at those to be used for it, and would it be worth the risks the Void Elves regularly face?

If so, those could constitute use for the Void that isn't a war crime.

[Varodoc]

Then that would be an acceptable use of it, as well as possibly transportation. Would the Void be effective enough at those to be used for it, and would it be worth the risks the Void Elves regularly face?

If so, those could constitute use for the Void that isn't a war crime.

Nothing the Ren'dorei have done constitues a "war crime". Warcraft is a universe with yearly world-ending threats, everything is permitted.

[Le Conceptuel]

Nothing the Ren'dorei have done constitues a "war crime". Warcraft is a universe with yearly world-ending threats, everything is permitted.

Well, that raises the question of what threat is worth using the Void against. If you were fighting, say, the Legion, that actually seems like a very good justification and position to use it in. If you were fighting, say, the Horde or some random Gnolls, that seems like it's overkill and definitely immoral. If anything is permitted for the sake of the greater good, we probably should be owing a few apologies to Sargeras by now.

[Raisei]

Well, that raises the question of what threat is worth using the Void against. If you were fighting, say, the Legion, that actually seems like a very good justification and position to use it in. If you were fighting, say, the Horde or some random Gnolls, that seems like it's overkill and definitely immoral. If anything is permitted for the sake of the greater good, we probably should be owing a few apologies to Sargeras by now.

Considering the Horde has just as little compulsion for mercy as the Legion and burned a tree full of civilians for no reason, I don't see why using the Void on them would be overkill in any way.
On soldiers and leaders of course. We are still the Alliance and do not wipe out civilians for fun. That would be a warcrime.

Restraining yourself in a defensive war, where the other side is clearly out to destroy you, is crazy. You use every tool avaiable to preserve your life and that of your friends and family. Anything less is tantamount to treason.

[Mehrunes]

On soldiers and leaders of course. We are still the Alliance and do not wipe out civilians for fun. That would be a warcrime.

Unless they are refugees of a cataclysm destroying their homeland that just randomly witnessed the Alliance trying to kill a formerly Horde character on his way to help save the world

[haiyken]

Evil is subjective.

If I use a shield to protect a child from an incoming arrow, wouldn't you call that shield "good"? Of course you would. But what if someone else used that same shield to bash a child in the face? Now you would call that shield "evil".

And you would be wrong! Because these weapons are neither good nor evil, it all depends on the user, and how they choose to wield these weapons.

The Void is a weapon to be used, nothing more. Void Lords use it for evil, but the Ren'dorei have demonstrated that they use it for good. People need to understand this, it's been almost 4 years since the Void elves' introduction. The Void is NOT good, it's NOT evil, it's a weapon. The Ren'dorei use it for good, that makes them good, the end.

The best example of this we have in the game is literally Xe'ra forcing a light conversion on Illidan, ignoring is free will. Before that, the Light was seen as mostly a force for good but we can clearly see now that the Light is nor good or evil. It's a powerful force that can be used for good. Another example along these lines is the current crusade started by Yrel on Alternate Draenor. I'm sure she feel she's fighting for the good side, but she killed a lot of people and force-converted them to the Light.