Who do you think really "won" the Fourth War? The status of Ashenvale and Lordaeron?

[loras]

The Fourth War is over, and ended in an uneasy armistice. Sylvanas abandoned the Horde. The Horde gained new racial leaders, and a new ruling council. Both sides gained permanent valuable new allies and lands. Most of the Alliance and Horde's military forces are completely decimated, and their resources largely depleted. But ultimately - who really "won" the Fourth War? The previous three wars had pretty clear victories, but this conclusion seems really unclear and poorly defined.

For example, what happened to the territories of Ashenvale and Lordaeron? It's difficult to imagine thousands of orcs and Horde soldiers just calmly withdrawing from Ashenvale with their heads bowed, but I don't see how the Alliance or at least the night elves could accept an armistice without Ashenvale returned. And what about Tirisfal Glades, and the lands of Lordaeron? Are they all considered Alliance territory - or do they still belong to the Forsaken after the conflict ended, even after the Undercity was destroyed?

Edit: I personally think as a compromise solution - part of Ashenvale, perhaps a fourth of Ashenvale at least near the Warsong Gulch area, should belong to the Horde, and an equivalent amount of Tirisfal Glades should belong to the Alliance. That way the usual "return to the older status quo" can be avoided, and the hardliners can be somewhat satisfied. The Horde gets to "win" some new territory, the Alliance gets to "reclaim" some of Lordaeron. There should be some change of sovereignty in both continents after such a massive conflict and a monstrous war - just like in real life. Or else it is just not realistic, frankly.

What really constitutes victory - at the end of the day? In your personal opinion, and that of most people, who really won the war in the end? Are you personally satisfied with the ending?

The warfronts were won by the alliance, as was the naval war, southshore too i hear.
But Lordaeron? The alliance ploughed it pretty badly, and afterwards it got blighted too, so i'd say it's no-one's land now, perhaps the Scarlets or some scourge leftovers now hold it?
Teldrassil too is completely gone of course, but Ashenvale... well i'm not sure, but i had the idea that Night Warrior Tyrande made it a fairly wise idea to avoid any historical night-elf lands apart from maybe Azshara. Add to that that they seem intent on claiming a capital and i think it's fairly clear that the night elves will go for Hyjal. Likewise i expect the forsaken to take up residence in Stratholme, which has all the trappings of a potentially very nice capital.

But in the end the war did end in an armistice, though mostly because of N'zoth.
However given that the Alliance made clear gains and inflicted devastating losses certainly no lesser than the Horde's i'd argue that the Alliance still "won" in so far as an armistice can be won.

After the battle of Dazar'alor the horde was weeks from being overrun according to in-game sources, and while Anduin's assault on Orgrimmar stated that this was the last assault he could muster i am strongly inclined that this means that this was the last of his expeditionary/local forces, the ones who regularly get sent out for war, implying that the alliance's defenses might have been largely left intact (it would furthermore reinforce the idea that the Horde was making a last stand at Orgrimmar, making it a combination of its army's remnants and its local defensive garrison tha created the advantage). It should also be mentioned that at that point he no longer had the obedience of the worgen and the night elves, so he might have counted himself even poorer than he was.

Though i liked that they really did involve the allied races i was sort of disappointed that no mention is made regarding the fate of Shadowforge city, Suramar, Thundertotem and the Vindicaar, each of those locales could be excellent places for battles and other interesting happenings.

[Swnem]

The horde is not allowed to have nice things, so the alliance had to win.

No, they really aren't when they are trying to genocide everything and everyone. As if they did, there would be no more game. So hey... that is your nice thing right there. You still got a game.

[Depakote]

No one won.

[Firefall]

Victory for Sylvanas.

[Rendark]

As if they did, there would be no more game.

What does that even mean?

[StillMcfuu]

Lore answer: no one won. Neither side gained anything and they were bled dry for all of it.

Meta answer: we all lost because most are unsubbed or playing an old version of the game.

[Swnem]

What does that even mean?

You do realise the horde under Sylvanas was meant to kill every living thing in the world (including themselves) as fuel for the jailor, yeah?

What do you think it meant? If the horde won, there would be no one left alive in Azeroth, including the world soul.
AKA the end of warcraft. Bad ending.

That's why the horde could never win. It's why the story you seem to want will never happen in WoW. There are players on both factions. Neither faction can ever be exterminated. The bad guys can never win. The game is rigged.

[Rendark]

You do realise the horde under Sylvanas was meant to kill every living thing in the world (including themselves) as fuel for the jailor, yeah?

What do you think it meant? If the horde won, there would be no one left alive in Azeroth, including the world soul.
AKA the end of warcraft. Bad ending.

That's why the horde could never win. It's why the story you seem to want will never happen in WoW. There are players on both factions. Neither faction can ever be exterminated. The bad guys can never win. The game is rigged.

I never said i wanted the horde to win. I said because of bad writing the horde always has to look bad so the alliance won.

[loras]

I never said i wanted the horde to win. I said because of bad writing the horde always has to look bad so the alliance won.

It was literally the reverse this time though, they literally had to invent a sudden troop shortage to make it seem like the alliance needed to Saurfang.
To say nothing of Anduin's random "But we are evil too!" monologue, as if the alliance held responsibility for Arthas or as if the internment camps were unwarranted for demonic genocidal invaders.

[Rendark]

It was literally the reverse this time though, they literally had to invent a sudden troop shortage to make it seem like the alliance needed to Saurfang.
To say nothing of Anduin's random "But we are evil too!" monologue, as if the alliance held responsibility for Arthas or as if the internment camps were unwarranted for demonic genocidal invaders.

That is true. BfA really was the worst.

[ro9ue]

Sylvanas won since all the death fed her boss in the Maw.

[aceperson]

if it wasn't for sylvanas's plot powers, the alliance probably would've won. if it wasn't for plot, the alliance fleet wouldn't have been destroyed at nazjatar. but thats not what happened. the alliance lost most of its fleet, the horde lost basically all of its fleet, and the alliance didn't have enough forces to siege org without the support of thrall and zappy boi. so if we included plot powers, the horde was going to win. without plot powers, the alliance would win. but because the plot powers had to go further, no one won.

[Rozz]

The Alliance won overall, with a huge hit to their resources. The Horde lost, yet only lost an Undead city and pride. So a shitty win for Alliance players tbh.

But if Sylvanas went full Garrosh, the Horde would've won via sheer brutality before being pushed back in later conflicts. You know, like the first time.

[loras]

That is true. BfA really was the worst.

Yeah, on that we can definitely agree.
Honestly i get why you'd be unhappy as horde, but it wasn't much better for the alliance either.

[Eslizon92]

That "group of tribes" dominated everyone on Draenor and then steamrolled the Alliance until it broke down to infighting. Except it's not even the entire Horde that did the latter, as whole clans stayed behind on Draenor, because the Horde forces on Azeroth were essentially a vanguard. And even then Alliance only managed to turn the tide after Gul'dan took a boatload of Azerothian Horde forces to Tomb of Sargeras and Orgrim sent even more forces away after him to punish his treason.

Dear horde fanboy, if you read Chronicles, in the start of the second war, It is established that the alliance did not crush the entire horde, just because Dragons save them from Kul'tiras fleet. And it is thus established in the book. if you took Neltharion out of the equation, the orcs would never have mastered the dragons, and his entire force would have been destroyed by kul'tiras.

The horde only had a chance to win in second war thanks to the dragons, and They only dominated Draenor because the fel powers of burning legion, and even so, they had to use the black star to get the victory in Karabor, Because even outnumbering the draenei, they lost every assault on the city.

Horde is weak, and they have always needed the help of third parties.

Trying to pull a distinction between "expeditionary" and "defense" Alliance forces out of nowhere doesn't make any difference anyway, because the expedition to Dazar'alor already required the Alliance to resort to peasant conscription. Meaning that whatever they had back home was exhausted for the sake of the "expeditionary" force regardless. Besides, the Alliance had the upper hand after Dazar'alor because of naval supremacy after the Zandalari got lobotomized, because until then gaining a naval upper hand was one of the main goals of each faction. That supremacy went up in flames after Azshara sank a great part of the Kul Tiran fleet.

This just proves my point.

[Mehrunes]

After the battle of Dazar'alor the horde was weeks from being overrun according to in-game sources, and while Anduin's assault on Orgrimmar stated that this was the last assault he could muster i am strongly inclined that this means that this was the last of his expeditionary/local forces, the ones who regularly get sent out for war, implying that the alliance's defenses might have been largely left intact (it would furthermore reinforce the idea that the Horde was making a last stand at Orgrimmar, making it a combination of its army's remnants and its local defensive garrison tha created the advantage). It should also be mentioned that at that point he no longer had the obedience of the worgen and the night elves, so he might have counted himself even poorer than he was.

Though i liked that they really did involve the allied races i was sort of disappointed that no mention is made regarding the fate of Shadowforge city, Suramar, Thundertotem and the Vindicaar, each of those locales could be excellent places for battles and other interesting happenings.

Trying to pull a distinction between "expeditionary" and "defense" Alliance forces out of nowhere doesn't make any difference anyway, because the expedition to Dazar'alor already required the Alliance to resort to peasant conscription. Meaning that whatever they had back home was exhausted for the sake of the "expeditionary" force regardless. Besides, the Alliance had the upper hand after Dazar'alor because of naval supremacy after the Zandalari got lobotomized, because until then gaining a naval upper hand was one of the main goals of each faction. That supremacy went up in flames after Azshara sank a great part of the Kul Tiran fleet. The attempt at painting the Horde forces as just Orgrimmar's local garrison don't pan out in the slightest either, because among the things the Alliance leaders said after the fact was that the Horde is the only faction strong enough to effectively oppose N'Zoth.

Dear horde fanboy, if you read Chronicles, in the start of the second war, It is established that the alliance did not crush the entire horde, just because Dragons save them from Kul'tiras fleet. And it is thus established in the book. if you took Neltharion out of the equation, the orcs would never have mastered the dragons, and his entire force would have been destroyed by kul'tiras.

The horde only had a chance to win in second war thanks to the dragons, and They only dominated Draenor because the fel powers of burning legion, and even so, they had to use the black star to get the victory in Karabor, Because even outnumbering the draenei, they lost every assault on the city.

Horde is weak, and they have always needed the help of third parties.

Yeah, being a fanboy totally means not taking a part of each side's forces in a manner that's convenient to the Alliance. Very compelling argument you got there. Never mind that the Horde was simply caught with its pants down outside of their element, which says nothing about the size of their army. Had Orgrim not been impatient and simply marched his army north there'd be squat the Alliance could have done about that at the time, because the Horde dominated on land until Gul'dan's betrayal sapped their forces. And never mind that the Alliance itself is a bunch of different kingdoms, until then third parties to Stormwind's fight against the Horde, that were convinced by Stormwind to band together, because they were too weak to handle the Horde on their own. The best part though is where you use the Dark Star usage against the Horde, even though they were fighting a race aided by the Naaru and using their tech, because you can't even manage any sliver of consistency.

This just proves my point.

You can't prove that which does not exist. If anything is proven here is just that, that you have no point. Otherwise you'd be able to actually argue against what I said instead of relying on this cheap, lazy cop-out. But that would require you to find anything wrong in what I said, which is an impossibility as all of it is supported by in-game quotes and other sources. Most of which comes directly from Alliance leaders.

[Eslizon92]

Trying to pull a distinction between "expeditionary" and "defense" Alliance forces out of nowhere doesn't make any difference anyway, because the expedition to Dazar'alor already required the Alliance to resort to peasant conscription. Meaning that whatever they had back home was exhausted for the sake of the "expeditionary" force regardless. Besides, the Alliance had the upper hand after Dazar'alor because of naval supremacy after the Zandalari got lobotomized, because until then gaining a naval upper hand was one of the main goals of each faction. That supremacy went up in flames after Azshara sank a great part of the Kul Tiran fleet. The attempt at painting the Horde forces as just Orgrimmar's local garrison don't pan out in the slightest either, because among the things the Alliance leaders said after the fact was that the Horde is the only faction strong enough to effectively oppose N'Zoth.




Yeah, being a fanboy totally means not taking a part of each side's forces in a manner that's convenient to the Alliance. Very compelling argument you got there. Never mind that the Horde was simply caught with its pants down outside of their element, which says nothing about the size of their army. Had Orgrim not been impatient and simply marched his army north there'd be squat the Alliance could have done about that at the time, because the Horde dominated on land until Gul'dan's betrayal sapped their forces. And never mind that the Alliance itself is a bunch of different kingdoms, until then third parties to Stormwind's fight against the Horde, that were convinced by Stormwind to band together, because they were too weak to handle the Horde on their own. The best part though is where you use the Dark Star usage against the Horde, even though they were fighting a race aided by the Naaru and using their tech, because you can't even manage any sliver of consistency.

Again, read the book, little horde fanboy.
Orgrimm decided to embark because he considered that crossing the Thandol Bridge was impossible.

In the part were you said Draeneis had Naaru aids, no, Draeneis havent Naaru aid during the war against horde. Stop misinforming, little horde fanboy.

[KOUNTERPARTS]

Who "really" won versus who Blizzard told us who won? I don't know if this a topic worth debating different interpretations of events.

[Eslizon92]

You can't prove that which does not exist. If anything is proven here is just that, that you have no point. Otherwise you'd be able to actually argue against what I said instead of relying on this cheap, lazy cop-out. But that would require you to find anything wrong in what I said, which is an impossibility as all of it is supported by in-game quotes and other sources. Most of which comes directly from Alliance leaders.

The alliance was weeks away from winning the war, then an element outside the horde (Aszhara) destroys its advantage, losing much more than the horde during Nazjatar events. This is my point. Horde alway need help from third parties, and still they haven't won since the first war.

[Mehrunes]

Again, read the book, little horde fanboy.
Orgrimm decided to embark because he considered that crossing the Thandol Bridge was impossible.

How about you heed your own words and read it yourself. The book says nothing about Orgrim considering it impossible. What it actually said was that he assumed the humans would likely have expected him to go through it and that he instead opted to do the unexpected. Alas, without resorting to fabrication you wouldn't be able to even construct that weak-ass non-argument you barely managed to muster.