Israel and Palestine Conflict Heats Up

[Draco-Onis]

I'm confused as to what Hamas think would happen. It's pretty clear Israel would use such a large scale attack as justification for simply erasing what's left of Palestine off the map

Like, do they think Iran and Egypt will come in and bail them out.

It makes more sense if you understand the context of the situation, for the last few years the new nationalist Israeli government has been antagonizing them. They have lost a lot of allies as they are getting closer to Israel, it's more of a situation of would you rather die on your knees or on your feet. Israel has been building more settlements, raiding them and slaughtering them more and more. They have been driven to a corner and feel they have to fight back, Bibi must be celebrating this is exactly what he wanted.

No one is going to complain about his corruption and changing the judiciary among other things if they are focused on "terrorists". We all know where how this movie ends mass genocide there's no escaping it even if they did nothing it's Israel's plan all along.

[Mayhem]

Unlike you, sitting somewhere thousands kilometers away on your white horse pretending you're so much morally better than everyone else - we have to deal with this right here and right now.

So yes, guess what - we just aren't very keen on getting murdered in our sleep and we, like any sensible human being, think about our security first. Are you by chance aware of Maslow's hierarchy of needs? Yes, guess what - security is a fundamental basis for it, just a bit above having to eat/sleep and shit.

You want us to open borders with Gaza? It was a silly notion even before today - after today, my boy - you'd be out of your fucking mind if you think there would be anyone left here even humoring that.

Breath, read his posts again. You both agree, you, and in the current situation that's understandable, don't read what he is saying. Of course, you have to treat the current situation for what it is and you have to keep your people safe and fight the terrorists but after that, you can't keep doing what you were doing because obviously it will only lead to this again and again and again. Start working with the Palestinian population, fight the hamas together with them, don't drive them into their hands.

[Gaidax]

Breath, read his posts again. You both agree, you, and in the current situation that's understandable, don't read what he is saying. Of course, you have to treat the current situation for what it is and you have to keep your people safe and fight the terrorists but after that, you can't keep doing what you were doing because obviously it will only lead to this again and again and again. Start working with the Palestinian population, fight the hamas together with them, don't drive them into their hands.

And how exactly you propose we do that? Because sure as hell we tried everything - work permits, relaxed border controls, supplying utilities like gas and power and every bloody time every 2-3 years we had Hamas come around and put this all up in smoke.

Please tell me, what do you want us to do when the other side's de facto leadership in the Gaza strip is not interested? Over the last 20 years you had left-wing governments, right-wing governments and whatever-wing governments and no approach held water for more than 2-3 years before Hamas inevitably launched some sort of attack on Israel.

People just aren't getting it - it's not some Disney story here, the root of it all is a fact that Gaza is controlled by two murderous radical religious terrorist groups that are not interested in your happy ending. They want - their ending and whoever disagrees - they shoot them. That's how they purged the opposition in 2007, literally shot them up.

And what's worse - I am not even sure they have Palestinian interests at heart given how a chunk of their leadership is on Iran's payroll enjoying high life in Qatar. Because yes - pray tell, how what they just did in any shape or form helps Palestinians?

[postman1782]

What? What EU? What drugs are you on?

https://www.vox.com/2018/11/20/18080...onism-war-1948
@Hansworst
@lllll
@username993720
@ItsRainingMetal

My bad, apparently it was just the UK that did it, after WW2 with the help of the UN. Most of the UN at the time was the EU and North America in 1948.

https://history.state.gov/milestones...led%20to%20end.

I still wasn't wrong. It wasn't Israel til then, they were shoved into it.

- - - Updated - - -

It makes more sense if you understand the context of the situation, for the last few years the new nationalist Israeli government has been antagonizing them. They have lost a lot of allies as they are getting closer to Israel, it's more of a situation of would you rather die on your knees or on your feet. Israel has been building more settlements, raiding them and slaughtering them more and more. They have been driven to a corner and feel they have to fight back, Bibi must be celebrating this is exactly what he wanted.

No one is going to complain about his corruption and changing the judiciary among other things if they are focused on "terrorists". We all know where how this movie ends mass genocide there's no escaping it even if they did nothing it's Israel's plan all along.

Watch out, you will be called Hitler for saying the exact same thing I did last night.

[Mayhem]

And how exactly you propose we do that? Because sure as hell we tried everything - work permits, relaxed border controls, supplying utilities like gas and power and every bloody time every 2-3 years we had Hamas come around and put this all up in smoke.

Please tell me, what do you want us to do when the other side's de facto leadership in the Gaza strip is not interested? Over the last 20 years you had left-wing governments, right-wing governments and whatever-wing governments and no approach held water for more than 2-3 years before Hamas inevitably launched some sort of attack on Israel.

People just aren't getting it - it's not some Disney story here, the root of it all is a fact that Gaza is controlled by two murderous radical religious terrorist groups that are not interested in your happy ending. They want - their ending and whoever disagrees - they shoot them. That's how they purged the opposition in 2007, literally shot them up.

And what's worse - I am not even sure they have Palestinian interests at heart given how a chunk of their leadership is on Iran's payroll enjoying high life in Qatar. Because yes - pray tell, how what they just did in any shape or form helps Palestinians?

Maybe we can take a look at history and see how it has been done with far worse countries that murdered millions of people. Maybe Israel could ask for help instead of pretending it can handle the situation on its own. Peacekeeping missions are a thing.

If you truly believe that the Palestinians are held hostage by hamas then you have people on your side against them, treat them like allies not just tolerate them. This is a process of course, years, maybe decades, but the approach so far has achieved quite obviously nothing.

[Gaidax]

If you truly believe that the Palestinians are held hostage by hamas then you have people on your side against them

If they can't help themselves, we can't help them. Until they do the change - it is what it is. Oslo accords happened because there was a partner, we could reach an agreement with at the other side, a partner who changed their ways and realized that instead of fighting maybe we could do negotiating.

Until Hamas won't make that move, nothing will change. And after what happened yesterday, any prospect of any Oslo 2.0 evaporated for a next decade. They are not only not interested, but have actively destroyed any chance for that yesterday.

[postman1782]

If they can't help themselves, we can't help them. Until they do the change - it is what it is. Oslo accords happened because there was a partner, we could reach an agreement with at the other side, a partner who changed their ways and realized that instead of fighting maybe we could do negotiating.

Until Hamas won't make that move, nothing will change. And after what happened yesterday, any prospect of any Oslo 2.0 evaporated for a next decade. They are not only not interested, but have actively destroyed any chance for that yesterday.

It isn't Hamas that is the problem, Hamas was made in response to the Israelis stealing Palestinian land for DECADES. If the Israelis couldn't steal it, they murdered and bulldozed homes to get it.

[Gaidax]

It isn't Hamas that is the problem

I wonder how you say this with a straight face today. Even Bernie fucking Sanders thinks Hamas is the problem in his statement today.

I guess you're so far gone it's even pointless to discuss this with you.

[Endus]

I wonder how you say this with a straight face today. Even Bernie fucking Sanders thinks Hamas is the problem in his statement today.

I guess you're so far gone it's even pointless to discuss this with you.

There is no single "problem". Hamas is terrible and engages in terrorism. Israel's government is fascist and engages in war crimes and atrocities. There's no need to pick a side and back it fully, here. You can condemn Hamas in this moment while still condemning Israel's recent history of brutality against Palestinians.

I save my compassion for the innocents on both sides of the borders here. Sure, in this moment it's mostly the Israelis being attacked, but I haven't forgotten the Palestinians who've had homes stolen or who've been shot by fascist IDF troops for funsies.

And as the Israeli response mounts up their own civilian death toll, the moral difference between the two becomes largely impossible to see. 250 dead Israelis, 232 dead Palestinians, at the last count I've seen.

[tehdang]

They are exactly on that same list. Saudi-Arabia is the key exporter of salafist ideology of Islam which is basis for almoust every terror group in and from Middle-East. It's a brutal regime monetizing terrorism that is being whitewashed because of it's geopolitical status as US ally in the region.

Easiest prediction ever. State sponsor of terrorism becomes, well, they're exporting salafism, and you see these terror groups practice salafism, jumble the words around a little, and state sponsor of terrorism!

Basically one step short of saying the Muslim religion bears responsibility for terrorism, and wrong for the same reasons. Not a state sponsor of terror, a state exporter of a branch of Sunni Islam. And I'm shuddering a little at the implication that salafism causes terror because of the existence of terror groups that practice salafism.

[Mayhem]

If they can't help themselves, we can't help them. Until they do the change - it is what it is. Oslo accords happened because there was a partner, we could reach an agreement with at the other side, a partner who changed their ways and realized that instead of fighting maybe we could do negotiating.

Until Hamas won't make that move, nothing will change. And after what happened yesterday, any prospect of any Oslo 2.0 evaporated for a next decade. They are not only not interested, but have actively destroyed any chance for that yesterday.

So the oppressed should fight the oppressors and you won't help them? Well, then this shit will just continue.

[Deus Mortis]

Seeing reports that the dead woman in the truck that was stripped and spat on to a cheering crowd was a German citizen in Israel for the music festival for peace that was being held near the Gaza border.

[postman1782]

I wonder how you say this with a straight face today. Even Bernie fucking Sanders thinks Hamas is the problem in his statement today.

I guess you're so far gone it's even pointless to discuss this with you.

Because the Israelis have murdered 34 FUCKING CHILDREN in Gaza and the West bank just this fucking year. Israel is targeting Mosques, Schools and Hospitals.

[Gaidax]

So the oppressed should fight the oppressors and you won't help them? Well, then this shit will just continue.

Oh, don't you worry your bleeding heart, we're on our way to help them soon. You're right, we should have done that a decade ago - thankfully Hamas shown us the error of our ways.

- - - Updated - - -

Seeing reports that the dead woman in the truck that was stripped and spat on to a cheering crowd was a German citizen in Israel for the music festival for peace that was being held near the Gaza border.

Yes.

Came from Germany and was a German citizen. Was Jewish or Israeli judging by the name.

[tehdang]

Hamas is the problem in his statement today.

I don't see how Israel proceeds besides forcible expulsion of Hamas from the Gaza Strip.

But some quick questions:
My Israeli friends, twitter follows, and American Jews with relatives in Israel are explicitly saying this is Israel's 9/11 (and my quick map on population size ratio would support more than that, strictly speaking). Would you say that sentiment is widespread?

Would you say this weakens Netanyahu in the long run, given the intelligence failures and response failures that appear unmatched since the failures before the first Yom Kippur war?

[postman1782]

I don't see how Israel proceeds besides forcible expulsion of Hamas from the Gaza Strip.

But some quick questions:
My Israeli friends, twitter follows, and American Jews with relatives in Israel are explicitly saying this is Israel's 9/11 (and my quick map on population size ratio would support more than that, strictly speaking). Would you say that sentiment is widespread?

Would you say this weakens Netanyahu in the long run, given the intelligence failures and response failures that appear unmatched since the failures before the first Yom Kippur war?

You should probably not wade into this either.

[Gaidax]

I don't see how Israel proceeds besides forcible expulsion of Hamas from the Gaza Strip.

But some quick questions:
My Israeli friends, twitter follows, and American Jews with relatives in Israel are explicitly saying this is Israel's 9/11 (and my quick map on population size ratio would support more than that, strictly speaking). Would you say that sentiment is widespread?

Would you say this weakens Netanyahu in the long run, given the intelligence failures and response failures that appear unmatched since the failures before the first Yom Kippur war?

We're only beginning to grasp the magnitude of what has happened - dead count already went to 350 up from the preliminary 40 in the morning and we don't even know how many are kidnapped with "hundreds" being a guesstimate now. There are even talks that actual dead count may go half a thousand or higher with majority being civilians and kidnapped could be easily be 200 or more.

So once the count is done - yes, I'd say it will be 9/11 magnitude of event in our scope, as you said.

So yes, Gaza is about to become Afghanistan, because anything less and nobody will accept it here. Netanyahu knows that there is no weaseling out of this one this time around, even if it costs peace agreement with Saudis.

---

Netanyahu is almost assuredly done. Nothing short of some sort of stellar victory in Gaza and complete destruction of Hamas/Jihad can save his ass this time around.

Some may celebrate, but quite frankly - they are fools. Because in this government of loonies, he was the one who was holding everyone back from doing what their hearts desire.

I don't know who the next PM will be, but I am pretty confident that Right will giga sweep it this time, because they can simply lay back and plaster "we told you so" as their election's slogan. There is a pickle of current government being a Right-wing, but they can simply blame Netanyahu for holding everything back and that will only be the truth as far as how things appear.

- - - Updated - - -

And BBC is conveniently just in time for what I wrote above.



- - - Updated - - -

I don't see how Israel proceeds besides forcible expulsion of Hamas from the Gaza Strip.

And to address this point - I really don't know about it, because lets face the reality - they do have hundreds of hostages and on top of them being at risk, we would probably end up with a thousand dead soldiers trying to capture Gaza strip, because nothing short of that would achieve the quoted goal. And that is not even counting the casualties among the Palestinians.

Reality is that we will probably be forced to stop somewhere mid-way and negotiate. And then hell knows what will happen, because in past we gave insane concessions just for one hostage and here you have hundreds of them.

- - - Updated - - -

What concerns me the most is this:

https://x.com/POTUS/status/1710801110754083121?s=20




And this is not the first time today. Seems like Hezbollah and maybe even Iran are raring to go and turn it into an outright war in the Middle East.

[PACOX]

If they can't help themselves, we can't help them. Until they do the change - it is what it is. Oslo accords happened because there was a partner, we could reach an agreement with at the other side, a partner who changed their ways and realized that instead of fighting maybe we could do negotiating.

Until Hamas won't make that move, nothing will change. And after what happened yesterday, any prospect of any Oslo 2.0 evaporated for a next decade. They are not only not interested, but have actively destroyed any chance for that yesterday.

If they can't help themselves then we can't help them


Jesus Christ no wonder this world is so messed up. Not like we're not talking about an overbearing regime facing down civilians who were suddenly pushed out of their homes. One side bares a bit more responsibility and power, no?


Nothing happens because it's easy for the world to ignore or wait until the pot boils over like now and just use Hamas' involvement as an excuse to ignore why
Palestians might be fighting in the first place. Hamas is a opportunistic disease but not the primary root issue.

You have a hyper nationalist government that drives people into the arms of a group of radicals.

[Surfd]

I think Israel can do whatever they want now. No limits.

Implying that they haven't been doing exactly that for more than half a century now?

[tehdang]

We're only beginning to grasp the magnitude of what has happened - dead count already went to 350 up from the preliminary 40 in the morning and we don't even know how many are kidnapped with "hundreds" being a guesstimate now. There are even talks that actual dead count may go half a thousand or higher with majority being civilians and kidnapped could be easily be 200 or more.

So once the count is done - yes, I'd say it will be 9/11 magnitude of event in our scope, as you said.

So yes, Gaza is about to become Afghanistan, because anything less and nobody will accept it here. Netanyahu knows that there is no weaseling out of this one this time around, even if it costs peace agreement with Saudis.

---

Netanyahu is almost assuredly done. Nothing short of some sort of stellar victory in Gaza and complete destruction of Hamas/Jihad can save his ass this time around.

Some may celebrate, but quite frankly - they are fools. Because in this government of loonies, he was the one who was holding everyone back from doing what their hearts desire.

I don't know who the next PM will be, but I am pretty confident that Right will giga sweep it this time, because they can simply lay back and plaster "we told you so" as their election's slogan. There is a pickle of current government being a Right-wing, but they can simply blame Netanyahu for holding everything back and that will only be the truth as far as how things appear.

- - - Updated - - -

And BBC is conveniently just in time for what I wrote above.



- - - Updated - - -



And to address this point - I really don't know about it, because lets face the reality - they do have hundreds of hostages and on top of them being at risk, we would probably end up with a thousand dead soldiers trying to capture Gaza strip, because nothing short of that would achieve the quoted goal. And that is not even counting the casualties among the Palestinians.

Reality is that we will probably be forced to stop somewhere mid-way and negotiate. And then hell knows what will happen, because in past we gave insane concessions just for one hostage and here you have hundreds of them.

Thank you for the detailed response. It confirms certain things I was unsure about.

- - - Updated - - -

What concerns me the most is this:

https://x.com/POTUS/status/1710801110754083121?s=20




And this is not the first time today. Seems like Hezbollah and maybe even Iran are raring to go and turn it into an outright war in the Middle East.

I have no clue how the US would respond if Hezbollah starts launching rockets from the north in retaliation for Israel's justified actions against Hamas in Gaza. The muted response from the West Bank is certainly encouraging.